Gilbert Green Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 20 hours ago, EggBlue said: too much time passes and people decide they hate the protagonists because they are bored Too much time passes and the fans drift away; till the only ones left are, disproportionately, fans the characters who currently seem to be winning. These fans dump on the Starks as a form of defense of their favorites, as they hate being reminded that their favorite characters are rather shitty people and/or have done some rather shitty things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Zoomers are gonna save us all from regressivism & lack of empathy. The drawback with recent censorious attitudes is that reprehensible characters are more interesting if they are humanised. Horrible though he is, Tyrion is still interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: To be fair we don't know that much about him. Hide contents I know he was rude to 'Alayne' because she was a bastard, but he could have just been having a bad day. He apologised afterwards. Moreover he seemed most upset with being forced into it rather than her status. And he was pretty honest with her, and (especially for an Arryn!!!) he did not seem to be remotely ashamed of loving someone widely considered beneath him socially. I agree we don’t know nearly enough about him, and it’s even hard to tell if, for example, Sansa emphasizes his looks so much because she’s attracted/finally getting her dream prince, or because she’s trying to focus on the positives because there are things about him she dislikes. It’s an interesting chapter re: Vale dynamics and LF’s strategy, but I found it less expositive character wise, so far, than most of the others. Except for how much Sansa seems to be buying into LF’s scheme, we don’t see the same fear-based need to notice the lack of alternatives when it comes to playing the role he wants. She seems much more sure of herself and her situation, and that’s a development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Yup. That’s why in my head canon she’s 18 - 20, makes it easier to read. Same for Sansa, Arya and the others. Take Arya, too. It’s not credible that a sheltered & privileged 9 yr old would be able to do all she’s done, even in a fantasy story. Now, a 14 - 16 yr old and it changes everything. I think Martin has commented on this more than once, that he wishes he’d made them older. Nah, Bran is almost a man grown at what? 9 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Nah, Bran is almost a man grown at what? 9 years? He’s 7 at the start of AGoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: He’s 7 at the start of AGoT. Still almost a man grown, he says so himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 12 hours ago, SeanF said: The drawback with recent censorious attitudes is that reprehensible characters are more interesting if they are humanised. Horrible though he is, Tyrion is still interesting. Indeed, I don't know if I would call Tyrion horrible, thought he is certainly headed down that path if he isn't there already but yes the George has a knack for humanising charachters (I think probably all good authors do) & characters like Jaime, Ramsay, Bronn, Tyrion, Tywin etc who are not great "people" are so interesting still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 On 1/19/2023 at 1:35 PM, SeanF said: I got Chat GPT to produce a poem about Prince Harry’s frost-bitten penis, in the style of John Keats. I think he made a mistake with that book by revealing too much in one volume. Now he has less material for another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Indeed, I don't know if I would call Tyrion horrible, thought he is certainly headed down that path if he isn't there already but yes the George has a knack for humanising charachters (I think probably all good authors do) & characters like Jaime, Ramsay, Bronn, Tyrion, Tywin etc who are not great "people" are so interesting still. Yo! I agree, I love getting into the mind of these antagonists. I think GRRM is especially good at it, particularly with the Lannisters that aren't Tyrion. Cersei and Jaime are still Cersei and Jaime but they've become way more likable when the perspective turned to them. Tyrion definitely acts a little sus sometimes but overall I think he has some good guy points in him still. Maybe. What it really comes down to for me I think is I just find that guy hysterical. I think it does a world for his likability. He's pretty much exactly like Tywin who I can't stand (I mean, I think he's interesting as hell. I think every character is, well maybe not Darkstar, lol). Stannis is another character who's pretty much a Tywin clone but somehow even more pig headed, yet that's my favorite king by a mile. And I'm willing to be it's because every time I read him there's a huge smile on my face, in contrast to Tywin whos incapable of a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted January 20, 2023 Author Share Posted January 20, 2023 22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Indeed, I don't know if I would call Tyrion horrible, thought he is certainly headed down that path if he isn't there already but yes the George has a knack for humanising charachters (I think probably all good authors do) & characters like Jaime, Ramsay, Bronn, Tyrion, Tywin etc who are not great "people" are so interesting still. He is a rapist. It’s very hard to redeem yourself after that. Though I felt it was needless IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 On 1/19/2023 at 4:46 PM, SeanF said: I think that medieval people did not view childhood as we do. At the age of 12, boys could be fighting as squires, serving on juries, or being hanged as felons. Pretty well everyone was working, from the age of about seven, even if some were being educated as well. Both boys and girls could be married at that age, but consummation was rare before the age of 15 (there are examples to the contrary, like Margaret Beaufort, but they were atypical). I think that’s what Martin got wrong. On the other hand the 20-something Ramsay rapes his wife "Arya", who, if we're going by the real Arya's age, is 11. We know Jeyne is 13 but since she's pretending to be Arya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I think he made a mistake with that book by revealing too much in one volume. Now he has less material for another. There’s a bit that’s relevant to GOT where he compares himself to Daenerys, being robbed of what was his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, SeanF said: There’s a bit that’s relevant to GOT where he compares himself to Daenerys, being robbed of what was his. What was supposed to be his? The Kingdom? There are people in front of him for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Indeed, I don't know if I would call Tyrion horrible, thought he is certainly headed down that path if he isn't there already but yes the George has a knack for humanising charachters (I think probably all good authors do) & characters like Jaime, Ramsay, Bronn, Tyrion, Tywin etc who are not great "people" are so interesting still. Depiction is not endorsement. I think GRRM has some strange ideas about romance, but I’ve never got the impression that he in any way endorses rape, slavery, brutalisation of the smallfolk, or the treatment of women, in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: What was supposed to be his? The Kingdom? There are people in front of him for that. “Her story resembles mine in many ways. She is so inspiring to me. Just like Daenerys, I will take back what was taken from me.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Many of them just want the attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Yo! I agree, I love getting into the mind of these antagonists. I think GRRM is especially good at it, particularly with the Lannisters that aren't Tyrion. Cersei and Jaime are still Cersei and Jaime but they've become way more likable when the perspective turned to them. Jaime I'll grant you, but Cersei? If anything (rather like a certain modern royal) the more insight I got into what was going on in her head, the less sympathy I had for her. The first books suggested she was a shrewd, calculating political animal who was doing her best to survive in a difficult environment. Once we got her POV, we discovered she was in fact an arrogant, paranoid, and really quite stupid nutter who blunders from one self-created crisis to the next, surviving largely through luck until that eventually runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 52 minutes ago, SeanF said: “Her story resembles mine in many ways. She is so inspiring to me. Just like Daenerys, I will take back what was taken from me.” That is really weird... I'm also confused what was taken from him. As far as I can tell he left voluntarily, no one forced him out. Edit: Did he miss the bit where Daenerys massacred civilians and then made a borderline fascist speech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 58 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: That is really weird... I'm also confused what was taken from him. As far as I can tell he left voluntarily, no one forced him out. Edit: Did he miss the bit where Daenerys massacred civilians and then made a borderline fascist speech? It’s just as well he doesn’t have access to US firing codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 20 minutes ago, SeanF said: It’s just as well he doesn’t have access to US firing codes. Have you read the book? I feel like he's losing touch with reality a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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