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Where does all this Stark hate come from?


King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd

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On 1/22/2023 at 9:29 AM, Chaircat Meow said:

If that is the case Jon's shield hall speech, where he said dealing with Ramsay was none of the NW's business, has to rank as one of the disastrously misjudged calls to arms in fiction.

That’s not what he says though. He’s heard the other officers who keep throwing the word treason around, especially when he tells them he’ll let the free folk through and intends to train them to fight. 
Jon knows letting them through is the right thing to do, both from a humane perspective, but also a pragmatic one since leaving them north of the Wall will only mean the Watch will have that many more wights to deal with. And again the same about the free folk stranded at Hardhome. Bowen, ever the bigoted coward, tells him to ‘let them die’. But Jon sees them as no different than the folks south of the Wall.

ADwD, Jon VII

"I am the sword in the darkness," said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were changing, growing stronger, more certain. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men.

"I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

He knows that as LC he must answer Ramsay’s threats before the latter shows up at CB. But he also knows that officers like Marsh will say, ‘treason!’. So he decides not to take any of the black brothers with him. And we know all this because it’s literally spelled out:

ADwD,  Jon XIII

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. "Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that's how it's done. We'll make a wildling o' you yet, boy. Har!"

He’s the LC, he’s doing what leaders do, doing what he believes is the right thing, he’s leading. 

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On 1/20/2023 at 4:14 PM, Hugorfonics said:

:D Yo!

I agree, I love getting into the mind of these antagonists. I think GRRM is especially good at it, particularly with the Lannisters that aren't Tyrion. Cersei and Jaime are still Cersei and Jaime but they've become way more likable when the perspective turned to them.

Tyrion definitely acts a little sus sometimes but overall I think he has some good guy points in him still. Maybe. What it really comes down to for me I think is I just find that guy hysterical. I think it does a world for his likability. He's pretty much exactly like Tywin who I can't stand (I mean, I think he's interesting as hell. I think every character is, well maybe not Darkstar, lol). Stannis is another character who's pretty much a Tywin clone but somehow even more pig headed, yet that's my favorite king by a mile. And I'm willing to be it's because every time I read him there's a huge smile on my face, in contrast to Tywin whos incapable of a joke 

Hi! OH the Lannisters are the best. If someone would have told me that the dude that pushed little Bran out the window would become one of my favorite characters I would have called them a liar. 

I think the potential to either be something great or something horrible is in Tyrion & it's all up to him how he works it out in the end. I see the similarities between Tyrion & Tywin for sure. Tywin has some talents & if he used them for good he could go some place far. 

Stan the man. Definitely one of my faves. I cannot read the conversation between him & Renly about the peach with out laughing. 

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On 1/21/2023 at 10:46 AM, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

You must be referring to all of the posts attacking Daenerys Targaryen.  

I have been here eleven years.  There have always been many people here who like Daenerys and do not like the Starks.  What seems to have changed since the show became popular is the diversity of the membership.  Your posts is rather abrasive, so I think the site administrators should allow me to be at least somewhat abrasive to you and candid.  I don't know if you were here 10-11 years ago, but the emotional maturity level of the Dany haters posting during those years convinced me they were insane.  A few today still do.   They were inept at the very least.  If you want to talk pathetic, it is the attacks on Daenerys who fall into that category.

I was here for it & while I'll not disagree a bit in regard to the lunatic Dany posters I don't think that means doing the same to the Starks is not good either. The comment is abrasive & I wouldn't go as far as that poster did but it's one thing to dislike a character - Sweet Robin isn't my fave. I could go on about him being whiney & spoiled & it would all be true, so I have no issue with constructive criticism. It's when things are made up - (Sansa is horrible, Jon is the devil spawn responsible for the fall of man kind, Arya is a psychopathic serial killer) etc that get people going I think. It's frustrating to talk to someone who is so blinded by their own hate of a fictional character that they refuse to even entertain the idea that their feelings aren't canon. 

Again, not saying you do this & I have seen the attacks on Dany often enough, but it doesn't make it any less pathetic to do it to the Starks as well. 

On 1/21/2023 at 10:46 AM, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Look, most people try to be inoffensive and sensitive most of the time.  But when you attack their favorite character, Daenerys, they will express themselves and attack characters they hate, the Starks.  There are more Starks to attack.  And the Starks are idiots.  It is very easy to find something to criticize and attack the Starks for every week.  I don't back down and I hope the others who feel the same way as me will continue to stand their ground.  That may be the difference.  The years brought more mature, more intelligent, more eloquent people to the forums.  

Well first & foremost you are responsible for your own actions (it isn't a justification to twist the text & lie because someone attacked their favorite character) The first person is responsible for being ignorant to begin with & the other for answering ignorance with ignorance. 

"The Starks are idiots" See, there you go doing the same thing? There are tons of Starks - Rickard, Lyanna, Brandon, Benjen, Ned, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, & Rickon, just to name a few. Are they all idiots? Little Rickon hardly seems old enough to be called an idiot. Bran seems to be pretty smart actually & if intelligence is measured via knowledge then Bran is pretty ahead of the curve, don't you think? Sansa & Arya both have survived situations, as children, that many adults would not have had the capability of getting through, sounds pretty smart to me. Robb was kind of an idiot, but a well meaning idiot & idiot or no, didn't deserve what happened to him. Ned managed to hide, not only from the realm but also his entire household & his wife, the mother of his bastard child for over a decade. That would take some intelligence as well, I would think. 

Besides, intelligence isn't everything. Ramsay is smart enough, but he is a sadistic lunatic. Robert wasn't all that smart yet managed to conquer & rule a realm for a little while at least. While I'm not singing his praises he made a better King than Ramsay would. Petyr & Varys also both seem to be pretty smart but not necessarily good. Idk, I think your summation of the Starks is way off. 

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On 1/21/2023 at 11:37 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I don't like Jon and Arya.  Most of what I say criticize them.  I will keep on condemning Jon's betrayal of the night's watch.  I think Arya is crazy and will always agree with those who say so.  You have the right to agree with me, argue with me, or ignore me. 

 

EXACTLY! :commie::bowdown:

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I was here for it & while I'll not disagree a bit in regard to the lunatic Dany posters I don't think that means doing the same to the Starks is not good either. The comment is abrasive & I wouldn't go as far as that poster did but it's one thing to dislike a character - Sweet Robin isn't my fave. I could go on about him being whiney & spoiled & it would all be true, so I have no issue with constructive criticism. It's when things are made up - (Sansa is horrible, Jon is the devil spawn responsible for the fall of man kind, Arya is a psychopathic serial killer) etc that get people going I think. It's frustrating to talk to someone who is so blinded by their own hate of a fictional character that they refuse to even entertain the idea that their feelings aren't canon. 

Again, not saying you do this & I have seen the attacks on Dany often enough, but it doesn't make it any less pathetic to do it to the Starks as well. 

Well first & foremost you are responsible for your own actions (it isn't a justification to twist the text & lie because someone attacked their favorite character) The first person is responsible for being ignorant to begin with & the other for answering ignorance with ignorance. 

"The Starks are idiots" See, there you go doing the same thing? There are tons of Starks - Rickard, Lyanna, Brandon, Benjen, Ned, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, & Rickon, just to name a few. Are they all idiots? Little Rickon hardly seems old enough to be called an idiot. Bran seems to be pretty smart actually & if intelligence is measured via knowledge then Bran is pretty ahead of the curve, don't you think? Sansa & Arya both have survived situations, as children, that many adults would not have had the capability of getting through, sounds pretty smart to me. Robb was kind of an idiot, but a well meaning idiot & idiot or no, didn't deserve what happened to him. Ned managed to hide, not only from the realm but also his entire household & his wife, the mother of his bastard child for over a decade. That would take some intelligence as well, I would think. 

Besides, intelligence isn't everything. Ramsay is smart enough, but he is a sadistic lunatic. Robert wasn't all that smart yet managed to conquer & rule a realm for a little while at least. While I'm not singing his praises he made a better King than Ramsay would. Petyr & Varys also both seem to be pretty smart but not necessarily good. Idk, I think your summation of the Starks is way off. 

This.  "Jon betrayed the Nights Watch";  "The Freys were justified";  "Arya is psychopath";  "Janos Slynt was innocent";  "Dany committed genocide of the slavers";  "Dany stole the private property of the Good Masters of Astapor".  All these comments are equivalent in their level of stupidity.

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

This.  "Jon betrayed the Nights Watch";  "The Freys were justified";  "Arya is psychopath";  "Janos Slynt was innocent";  "Dany committed genocide of the slavers";  "Dany stole the private property of the Good Masters of Astapor".  All these comments are equivalent in their level of stupidity.

Indeed they are. Either stupidity or the worst case of intelectual dishonesty I have ever seen ever. Or both. 

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed they are. Either stupidity or the worst case of intelectual dishonesty I have ever seen ever. Or both. 

Literally all of them are true except for The Freys and Janos Slynt

Arya killed the stable boy without flinching, Jon breaks his oath multiple times in the series by fucking Ygritte and riding south (twice, lmao) Dany kills twelve year old boys just because they're family of slavers, etc. 
 

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11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

"The Starks are idiots" See, there you go doing the same thing? There are tons of Starks - Rickard, Lyanna, Brandon, Benjen, Ned, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, & Rickon, just to name a few. Are they all idiots? Little Rickon hardly seems old enough to be called an idiot. Bran seems to be pretty smart actually & if intelligence is measured via knowledge then Bran is pretty ahead of the curve, don't you think? Sansa & Arya both have survived situations, as children, that many adults would not have had the capability of getting through, sounds pretty smart to me. Robb was kind of an idiot, but a well meaning idiot & idiot or no, didn't deserve what happened to him. Ned managed to hide, not only from the realm but also his entire household & his wife, the mother of his bastard child for over a decade. That would take some intelligence as well, I would think. 

Besides, intelligence isn't everything. Ramsay is smart enough, but he is a sadistic lunatic. Robert wasn't all that smart yet managed to conquer & rule a realm for a little while at least. While I'm not singing his praises he made a better King than Ramsay would. Petyr & Varys also both seem to be pretty smart but not necessarily good. Idk, I think your summation of the Starks is way off. 

I appreciated reading this. <3 I get so tired of fans calling everyone and their mother "stupid" or "idiots" because of major or even minor mistakes. The more I re-read the books, the more I admire and love each character. They're all very intelligent imo. What readers mistake as "stupidity" is really just characters being forced into positions they lack experience or knowledge in, which leads to many mistakes. Every single one of these characters has had their world turned upside down, and it's far more challenging for the younger ones. The Stark kids are fighting to survive while simultaneously discovering many of their strengths and weaknesses for the first time. Same goes for Daenerys. Robb and Daenerys became king and queen with zero preparation for rule (Robb probably received a little? For when he would be one day lord of Winterfell.) That is a heavy heavy burden to bear for people their age. Jon is elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch with a little preparation, but not enough for him to fully excel at it. You have Arya who is overly adapting to every scenario she is faced with, and she doesn't realize the sort of mental impact or influence it's all having on her. Only 11 years old and she has personally killed about 7 people I believe? She was there when her father died, pulled her mother's corpse out of a river via Nymeria. She is afflicted by her warging, but has no one there to help her understand it or control it. Sansa was beaten, molested, and assaulted regularly in King's Landing. She watched her father die and then had to see his rotting head on a spike. She is the only one out of her siblings who was forced to marry against her will, and a Lannister of all families. She's been threatened, manipulated, gaslighted, verbally abused, and shunned, surrounded by some of the best players. She's given terrible advice by people she knows she can't trust. She's almost murdered by her own aunt, in a place she should feel safe enough to be herself in. Bran barely had enough time to adjust to his disability before his home was destroyed and more people he loved were killed. He travels from Winterfell to The Haunted Forest beyond the Wall. And that's absolutely insane to me. Bran, a 9 year old cripple, is moving towards a threat that the entire Wildling force is running away from. Bran is also unfairly faced with a heavy burden of powerful magic. Currently he is using his abilities abusively on Hodor, because he's 9 and lacks self control. 

Sorry, this is much longer than I wanted it to be. These characters are in ridiculously challenging situations. I feel so stressed for them when I read their POVs lol. I find them all to be very intelligent, they younger ones tend to feel helpless and simply don't know what to do. That's pretty normal.

 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Hi! OH the Lannisters are the best. If someone would have told me that the dude that pushed little Bran out the window would become one of my favorite characters I would have called them a liar. 

For real! I've always tried to not look at stories solely through one perspective, and in asoiaf I kept (and honestly keep) doing mental gymnastics to make the mad king seem more relatable and rationalized. It helps that Dany is cool people with her own sperate mindset. But Jaime? Omg hes so despicable right in our face! And even if I can never relate to him I definitely can start to rationalize.

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I think the potential to either be something great or something horrible is in Tyrion & it's all up to him how he works it out in the end. I see the similarities between Tyrion & Tywin for sure. Tywin has some talents & if he used them for good he could go some place far. 

The real problem I think I have with Tyrion is metaphysical and somewhat ridiculous. I don't really approve of feudalism, and the Imp is often using his brilliance to the benefit of King Joffrey and House Lannister. Now it's for the Mad Kings kid (who I love, but she does have her own baggage). If Tyrion were to have joined the Watch under Jon or the Brotherhood under Beric then I think he could do some real good for good.

Tywin reminds me a lot of one of my favorite warlords from history/fiction. Cao Mendge. When he's rationalized in the modern day it's not on the spectrum of moral and immoral (because we all know where he'd wind up) it's under pragmatic and not pragmatic. Did his rule benefit the world despite the war, terror, and general atrocities he created? I'd say... No? (Probably for both) Tywin was just too vain imo to handle politics and not see him as the ever growing beneficiary.

But in another world, who knows?

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1 hour ago, Jekse said:

Literally all of them are true except for The Freys and Janos Slynt

Arya killed the stable boy without flinching, Jon breaks his oath multiple times in the series by fucking Ygritte and riding south (twice, lmao) Dany kills twelve year old boys just because they're family of slavers, etc. 
 

Oh? Lets go through them shall we? 

Jon betrayed the NW - How so? You know what? Never mind, there is thread upon thread hashing out every aspect of this, go check them out. He betrayed no one, he was betrayed.

The Frey's were justified - I believe you are agreeing they are not? 

Arya is a psycopath - This is a medical diagnosis that Arya has, as of yet, not been diagnosed with. Even if there were someone to diagnosis her if they were worth anything they wouldn't. She clearly isn't a psychopath. If you mean to say she is "Crazy" in the more looser sense of the word, to each their own, you're welcome to your opinion but it remains an opinion, not fact. 

Janos Slynt was innocent - I believe you are also agreeing he is not innocent? A little perplexed as to where the betraying the NW comes from then....

Dany committed genocide of the slavers - Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. She had no aim to destroy all the slavers & if her aim was genocide, she didn't do a very good job at it right? There are still tons of slavers out there. She killed some slavers, yes. She didn't commit genocide, they were horrible people doing horrible things to other people. 

Dany stole the private property of the Good Masters of Astapor - if you believe this to be true I'm not sure there is any reason to continue the conversation. 

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1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I appreciated reading this. <3 I get so tired of fans calling everyone and their mother "stupid" or "idiots" because of major or even minor mistakes. The more I re-read the books, the more I admire and love each character. They're all very intelligent imo.

:) Absolutely. I don't think there are any stupid characters. There are a few bad ones, but even those are intelligent enough. 

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

What readers mistake as "stupidity" is really just characters being forced into positions they lack experience or knowledge in, which leads to many mistakes. Every single one of these characters has had their world turned upside down, and it's far more challenging for the younger ones. The Stark kids are fighting to survive while simultaneously discovering many of their strengths and weaknesses for the first time.

Exactly & we (the readers) are operating with a ton more knowledge about how a specific action will affect other things than the characters ever get. Imagine if it were our life story being told. I know someone reading mine would probably shake their head at plenty of the things I've done, yet I'm of above average intelligence, at least that's what my school told me. <_<

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

The Stark kids are fighting to survive while simultaneously discovering many of their strengths and weaknesses for the first time. Same goes for Daenerys. Robb and Daenerys became king and queen with zero preparation for rule (Robb probably received a little? For when he would be one day lord of Winterfell.) That is a heavy heavy burden to bear for people their age.

Right? I could barely remember my address at Dany's age. 

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Jon is elected as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch with a little preparation, but not enough for him to fully excel at it.

Indeed, definitely mistakes made. Hindsight is 20/20 but he is no idiot nor is he a bad person. 

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

You have Arya who is overly adapting to every scenario she is faced with, and she doesn't realize the sort of mental impact or influence it's all having on her. Only 11 years old and she has personally killed about 7 people I believe? She was there when her father died, pulled her mother's corpse out of a river via Nymeria. She is afflicted by her warging, but has no one there to help her understand it or control it.

Arya is my favorite but she breaks my heart. I cannot imagine my own child going through something like this. She is a little wild & thankfully so, else she wouldn't have survived this long. 

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Sansa was beaten, molested, and assaulted regularly in King's Landing. She watched her father die and then had to see his rotting head on a spike. She is the only one out of her siblings who was forced to marry against her will, and a Lannister of all families. She's been threatened, manipulated, gaslighted, verbally abused, and shunned, surrounded by some of the best players. She's given terrible advice by people she knows she can't trust. She's almost murdered by her own aunt, in a place she should feel safe enough to be herself in

I don't know that any other character has had to experience the mind f*ck that Sansa has. Well, Theon's is worse but I can't think of any others. 

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Bran barely had enough time to adjust to his disability before his home was destroyed and more people he loved were killed. He travels from Winterfell to The Haunted Forest beyond the Wall. And that's absolutely insane to me. Bran, a 9 year old cripple, is moving towards a threat that the entire Wildling force is running away from. Bran is also unfairly faced with a heavy burden of powerful magic. Currently he is using his abilities abusively on Hodor, because he's 9 and lacks self control. 

Yeah for sure. We live & learn right? These kids are forced to figure it out on their own or die. Surely we can give them some leeway when they stumble along the way? 

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

For real! I've always tried to not look at stories solely through one perspective, and in asoiaf I kept (and honestly keep) doing mental gymnastics to make the mad king seem more relatable and rationalized. It helps that Dany is cool people with her own sperate mindset. But Jaime? Omg hes so despicable right in our face! And even if I can never relate to him I definitely can start to rationalize.

Yeah, I think it makes the story more enjoyable. The mad king - I can't remember where I originally heard it but I like the idea that the voices he was hearing was actually Bran traveling through the time via the tree-verse whispering in his head driving him mad. It takes some of the nastiness away from the Mad King if we think of him as being slowly & deliberately driven insane, right? Either way, there are a couple that are hard to empathize with for sure. 

Here's the thing about Jaime, good or bad, he owns it. Not that he tells on his self or accepts punishment but he owns it in his own mind. Contrast that to Cersei who seems to twist things until she can justify them to herself. Jaime does what he has to & makes no apologies for it. Not necessarily a good thing I guess but I prefer it to some others. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The real problem I think I have with Tyrion is metaphysical and somewhat ridiculous. I don't really approve of feudalism, and the Imp is often using his brilliance to the benefit of King Joffrey and House Lannister. Now it's for the Mad Kings kid (who I love, but she does have her own baggage). If Tyrion were to have joined the Watch under Jon or the Brotherhood under Beric then I think he could do some real good for good.

I agree 100%. While I completely understand why Tyrion uses his skills to the betterment of his own family I definitely wish he didn't. As irritated that I was that Tyrion was being rail-roaded & losing his trial even though he is innocent, I did look forward to the potential that Tyrion would be on the wall with Jon. Woud've been a good read, I think. 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin reminds me a lot of one of my favorite warlords from history/fiction. Cao Mendge. When he's rationalized in the modern day it's not on the spectrum of moral and immoral (because we all know where he'd wind up) it's under pragmatic and not pragmatic. Did his rule benefit the world despite the war, terror, and general atrocities he created? I'd say... No? (Probably for both) Tywin was just too vain imo to handle politics and not see him as the ever growing beneficiary.

But in another world, who knows?

I tend to agree with you but it's definitely arguable. Like is it better to slay an entire army on a field of battle or to kill the "leaders" at a wedding? I suppose that depends on what better is to you, right? 

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40 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Oh? Lets go through them shall we? 

It's really not for the sole intention of devil's advocate. I think there are different perspectives on lots of issues.

40 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Jon betrayed the NW - How so? You know what? Never mind, there is thread upon thread hashing out every aspect of this, go check them out. He betrayed no one, he was betrayed.

Jon was betrayed, that's undeniable. We can even give some of them names like Bowen Marsh. 

There are protocols however that Lord Snow played pretty loose with, I happen to agree with probably all of them, but some do go against what the NW has done in historical memory. So while he didn't betray his institution like say, Walder, he is going against what many took the NW for as granted.

47 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

The Frey's were justified - I believe you are agreeing they are not? 

Idk how anybody can spin that lol

49 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Arya is a psycopath - This is a medical diagnosis that Arya has, as of yet, not been diagnosed with. Even if there were someone to diagnosis her if they were worth anything they wouldn't. She clearly isn't a psychopath. If you mean to say she is "Crazy" in the more looser sense of the word, to each their own, you're welcome to your opinion but it remains an opinion, not fact. 

I'd say there are some red flags. Repeating the names of those you want dead instead of like, counting sheep, should imo, in today's world, get her a meeting with a childs therapist. I feel really bad for her, she's such a favorite of mine (for some reason I still like Sansa more, but I really love Arya) and she remains the only character to make me tear up sometimes. I think it may be her struggle with mental health that contributes to that, and her bravery to confront it too.

But I stay worried. Her justification for Daeron, like she saw it as her duty to do it. Like The Punisher. Who's a badass, and certifiably not a psychopath, or even a PTSD victim. But still something sick. (Castle can't get better. Arya's still a kid and I'm rooting for her)

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Janos Slynt was innocent - I believe you are also agreeing he is not innocent? A little perplexed as to where the betraying the NW comes from then....

Innocent of baby killing? I guess not, though Deem and Cersei deserve it more so. Innocent in refusing to spend the rest of his life repairing a ruin in a blizzard? I guess not either. Dude was a jerk, no denying that.

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Dany committed genocide of the slavers - Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. She had no aim to destroy all the slavers & if her aim was genocide, she didn't do a very good job at it right? There are still tons of slavers out there. She killed some slavers, yes. She didn't commit genocide, they were horrible people doing horrible things to other people. 

Completely agree here. Dany did bad stuff for good reason. But in no way was it genocide.

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Dany stole the private property of the Good Masters of Astapor - if you believe this to be true I'm not sure there is any reason to continue the conversation. 

Lol word. She stole private property like the Union stole the private property of rich slave owners in the confederacy. It's kinda true, if you dramatically tweak the words stole and private property 

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8 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I think it makes the story more enjoyable. The mad king - I can't remember where I originally heard it but I like the idea that the voices he was hearing was actually Bran traveling through the time via the tree-verse whispering in his head driving him mad. It takes some of the nastiness away from the Mad King if we think of him as being slowly & deliberately driven insane, right? Either way, there are a couple that are hard to empathize with for sure. 

Word. I've heard Bloodraven too. Regular Targaryen dreams maybe too. Speaking of which, Quaithe scares the hell out of me. How does she appear like that? Is Dany already past insane? Compounded with the stories of her father, I'm straight terrified for Danys mental sanity.

10 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Here's the thing about Jaime, good or bad, he owns it. Not that he tells on his self or accepts punishment but he owns it in his own mind. Contrast that to Cersei who seems to twist things until she can justify them to herself. Jaime does what he has to & makes no apologies for it. Not necessarily a good thing I guess but I prefer it to some others.

That's so true! No justification, no white washing. He's made some mistakes and didn't act in some other times but here he is still standing, one armed and all. He is a lot of fun. (Also hysterical)

13 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I agree 100%. While I completely understand why Tyrion uses his skills to the betterment of his own family I definitely wish he didn't. As irritated that I was that Tyrion was being rail-roaded & losing his trial even though he is innocent, I did look forward to the potential that Tyrion would be on the wall with Jon. Woud've been a good read, I think. 

I think so too. But I think this read is better lol. 

I think they'll meet up again though. Itd be weird for them to become friends only to never later meet.

15 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I tend to agree with you but it's definitely arguable. Like is it better to slay an entire army on a field of battle or to kill the "leaders" at a wedding? I suppose that depends on what better is to you, right? 

Or more pragmatic. Tywin wants to end the war and not see Robb go back north to muster a new army. 

Which I get. And let's say forget morality or honor or the superstition of guest rights, one hour of fighting is preferable for the realm then X years.... But if that were truly the case then why does the RW happen in just the third book? And the middle of it at that? Could it be that the tyranny and disrespect shown at the RW will actually escalate the conflict, far more the ln what Robb could ever have done alive? I say absolutely. Which would make the RW the non pragmatic choice in the end

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9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. I've heard Bloodraven too. Regular Targaryen dreams maybe too. Speaking of which, Quaithe scares the hell out of me. How does she appear like that? Is Dany already past insane? Compounded with the stories of her father, I'm straight terrified for Danys mental sanity.

That's so true! No justification, no white washing. He's made some mistakes and didn't act in some other times but here he is still standing, one armed and all. He is a lot of fun. (Also hysterical)

I think so too. But I think this read is better lol. 

I think they'll meet up again though. Itd be weird for them to become friends only to never later meet.

Or more pragmatic. Tywin wants to end the war and not see Robb go back north to muster a new army. 

Which I get. And let's say forget morality or honor or the superstition of guest rights, one hour of fighting is preferable for the realm then X years.... But if that were truly the case then why does the RW happen in just the third book? And the middle of it at that? Could it be that the tyranny and disrespect shown at the RW will actually escalate the conflict, far more the ln what Robb could ever have done alive? I say absolutely. Which would make the RW the non pragmatic choice in the end

There’s a reason for conventions like guest right.  It’s the on-universe equivalent of diplomatic immunity.

Once you break such conventions, you invite retaliation.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There’s a reason for conventions like guest right.  It’s the on-universe equivalent of diplomatic immunity.

Once you break such conventions, you invite retaliation.

Yea, agreed. 

I guess the modern equivalent would be like a known spy who insists he's a diplomat is found jeopardizing the safety of the state. Is arresting him and negating the crisis worth, you know, arresting an acting ambassador?

It's a tricky situation. And in Walders and Tywins (hopefully Rooses) case, they chose wrong.

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19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s not what he says though. He’s heard the other officers who keep throwing the word treason around, especially when he tells them he’ll let the free folk through and intends to train them to fight. 
Jon knows letting them through is the right thing to do, both from a humane perspective, but also a pragmatic one since leaving them north of the Wall will only mean the Watch will have that many more wights to deal with. And again the same about the free folk stranded at Hardhome. Bowen, ever the bigoted coward, tells him to ‘let them die’. But Jon sees them as no different than the folks south of the Wall.

ADwD, Jon VII

"I am the sword in the darkness," said the six, and it seemed to Jon as though their voices were changing, growing stronger, more certain. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men."

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men.

"I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

He knows that as LC he must answer Ramsay’s threats before the latter shows up at CB. But he also knows that officers like Marsh will say, ‘treason!’. So he decides not to take any of the black brothers with him. And we know all this because it’s literally spelled out:

ADwD,  Jon XIII

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. "Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that's how it's done. We'll make a wildling o' you yet, boy. Har!"

He’s the LC, he’s doing what leaders do, doing what he believes is the right thing, he’s leading. 

A big long post and a lot of likes but it doesn't address my point.

Jon publicly says, during his speech in the shield hall, that dealing with Ramsay is not the business of the Night's Watch. I do not have my books to hand so do not have the exact quote. Something like 'the NW takes no part, it is not our job to defend Stannis's wife and children etc ...' So that's what his men heard: he never even tried to defend his actions as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

He may not think he's oathbreaking by leading the wildlings to attack Ramsay. Or he may be unsure whether he is. But the if is in his thoughts: he said out loud for all to hear that what he was doing was not NW business.

And this is the problem here. Many readers are unable to step away from Jon's perspective and ask what it looked like to everyone else. As officers of the Night's Watch Bowen and co were unable to stand by and let the Lord Commander lead their traditional enemies, whom they had spent their lives defending the north against, against the north. Cut and dry. They did the right thing. 

I don't have any argument re letting the wildings through the wall with guarantees like Jon did (hostages, etc) being treason. I don't think it was. Bowen was wrong about that. I never said he was right. Other people may have. But not me.

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1 hour ago, Chaircat Meow said:

And this is the problem here. Many readers are unable to step away from Jon's perspective and ask what it looked like to everyone else. As officers of the Night's Watch Bowen and co were unable to stand by and let the Lord Commander lead their traditional enemies, whom they had spent their lives defending the north against, against the north. Cut and dry. They did the right thing. 

 

I see where you come from, but what I don't see is that assignation, murder, as the right thing to do.  That is where I draw the line.  The NW already went through an assignation of their Lord Commander, Jeor Mormont.  The assassins in that event became known as traitors and turn cloaks, as that is what they were.  Now Bowen Marsh and his coterie are the traitors to the NW, not Jon. 

 

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3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

 

I see where you come from, but what I don't see is that assignation, murder, as the right thing to do.  That is where I draw the line.  The NW already went through an assignation of their Lord Commander, Jeor Mormont.  The assassins in that event became known as traitors and turn cloaks, as that is what they were.  Now Bowen Marsh and his coterie are the traitors to the NW, not Jon. 

 

Bowen & co. are eager to curry favour with the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys.  They see them as the good guys.  I have no sympathy.

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