Characters Who Got What They Deserved

[Arthur Peres]

Balon and Aeron also digged their own graves.

Balon certanly deserved what he got, Aeron may also deserve some punishment but what Euron is doing is way overkill.

 

 

[Jon Fossoway]

I would say Theon, but really won't wish torture on anyone, fictional or not... So my answer kinda narrows. I'd say Tywin, not because on the manner of his death, but in the state everything he so relentlessly build during his life stands after his death: his twin kids, suspected of adultery and incest, both disgraced in the eyes of the smallfolk, an unlikely heir whom he hates (and the one who pulled the trigger), his House in an unsecure position, his grandkid of a king, dead; his grandkid of king that followed: a puppet; Myrcella, shipped to Dorne and then maimed. Later on, his trusted brother, murdered. Ta ta.

[Jon Fossoway]

2 hours ago, Adelstein said:

People like Kevan because a) by Westerosi standards he is virtuous and therefore is spoken of well by other characters ).

Really? I can't recall any character saying that Kevan is a virtuous man. 

[Groo]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh that's so dark! 

Worse fate then Gregor?

I'm thinking more in terms of poetic justice. Gregor deserved a worse fate, but he also seemed to be largely unconscious for much of the torment.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Really? I can't recall any character saying that Kevan is a virtuous man. 

Not in so many words that I can remember off the top of my head, but from what I recall, Kevan is generally respected - and without the edge of fear that often accompanies praise of Tywin.

The one instance I can recall is Genna comparing Jaime to her brothers: "You must have something of Kevan in you, or you wouldn't wear that [Kingsguard] cloak". The implied praise of Kevan there is pretty high.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Really? I can't recall any character saying that Kevan is a virtuous man. 

Varys calls him “a good man, in service to a bad cause.”

I would not call him a good man.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Varys calls him “a good man, in service to a bad cause.”

I would not call him a good man.

Compared to Tywin he was but he was still Tywin’s yes man. I doubt he’d be as cruel as Tywin but he also never fought Tywin on his cruelty.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Balon and Aeron also digged their own graves.

Balon certanly deserved what he got, Aeron may also deserve some punishment but what Euron is doing is way overkill.

 

 

What Balon got was indeed karma, dying an undignified and glory-less death at the hands of the brother that he had banished and who may have never gotten the chance to do so if Balon hadn't exiled him. What's more is that by exiling Euron he also made sure that Euron wouldn't have suffered defeat, that Euron would collect all these items he stole from the warlocks and got from "Valyria", and would have a legendary reputation amongst the Ironborn. 

[Maegor_the_Cool]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What Balon got was indeed karma, dying an undignified and glory-less death at the hands of the brother that he had banished and who may have never gotten the chance to do so if Balon hadn't exiled him. What's more is that by exiling Euron he also made sure that Euron wouldn't have suffered defeat, that Euron would collect all these items he stole from the warlocks and got from "Valyria", and would have a legendary reputation amongst the Ironborn. 

I hope Euron isn’t full of shit and he actually has been to Valyria. He would be the first villain in ASOIAF to truly frighten me. Ramsay and Joffrey are evil to be sure, but they really just disgust me. As does Craster and Walder Frey. 

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

I hope Euron isn’t full of shit and he actually has been to Valyria. He would be the first villain in ASOIAF to truly frighten me. Ramsay and Joffrey are evil to be sure, but they really just disgust me. As does Craster and Walder Frey. 

It remains to be seen if he’s some kind of eldritch Demi-god, or just a loathsome man who’s learned some spells.

[Alester Florent]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Varys calls him “a good man, in service to a bad cause.”

I would not call him a good man.

This is the gap between Westerosi values and our own. Westeros is a land with, at best, a fundamentally different conception of "war crimes" and where attacking your enemy's population is de rigeur for an army operating in hostile territory. Burning the Riverlands, the thing that most posters here seem to consider one of Tywin's worst crimes (and I agree) is not particularly outré by Westerosi standards: to the extent it's unusual it's only in the thoroughness applied. Rape and indiscriminate murder are, unfortunately, an accepted inevitability of warfare. It might be raised as regrettable, but we would not expect Kevan or the like to make a point of opposing Tywin on when it comes to policy, because that sort of thing is how you wage war, and that comes with some undesirable consequences. Similarly, Tywin's destruction of the Reynes was shocking in its ruthlessness, but also, to an IC onlooker, impressive, and something Tywin was entirely within his rights to do. Most of our POVs, at least while he's alive, are from people who have personal reasons to dislike Tywin, and that together with our modern value system colours our perception of him. We also know that he is not just a hard and ruthless man in public, but a cruel and hypocritical man in private. Overall, though, Tywin is generally considered a great, if terrifying, man.

Kevan is a younger brother who displays absolute loyalty to his older brother and liege lord. This may be partially motivated by guilt for his potential, involuntary, involvement in the killing of his grandfather, but whatever the motivation, it's considered good behaviour in Westeros. This is entirely in keeping with what we expect of our heroes: his mentality fits in with the Tully house words, with the behaviour of the younger Stark children, with the criticisms levelled at Renly for not siding with Stannis, etc. Had he grown up in a different house, we might have got another Ned Stark, or Garlan Tyrell, or a better version of the Blackfish. But unfortunately he was Tywin's brother.

It is essentially the same problem we have with Barristan. Barristan is universally respected IC as an honourable and good man and a perfect knight. But among the readership, he is viewed with more cynicism - called a jackbooted thug in some quarters - for his uncritical service to Aerys. I think this perception gap is intentional: GRRM wants the reader to understand that there is a difference in values between Westeros and the modern west, and to appreciate that what is or is not considered "good" is cultural as much as anything.

Of course not all Tywin's brothers did what Kevan did: the other two seemingly tried to forge their own path out of his shadow. Gerion we know a fair bit about, but Tygett has only been referenced in passing. It would be interesting to learn more about him.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

This is the gap between Westerosi values and our own. Westeros is a land with, at best, a fundamentally different conception of "war crimes" and where attacking your enemy's population is de rigeur for an army operating in hostile territory. Burning the Riverlands, the thing that most posters here seem to consider one of Tywin's worst crimes (and I agree) is not particularly outré by Westerosi standards: to the extent it's unusual it's only in the thoroughness applied. Rape and indiscriminate murder are, unfortunately, an accepted inevitability of warfare. It might be raised as regrettable, but we would not expect Kevan or the like to make a point of opposing Tywin on when it comes to policy, because that sort of thing is how you wage war, and that comes with some undesirable consequences. Similarly, Tywin's destruction of the Reynes was shocking in its ruthlessness, but also, to an IC onlooker, impressive, and something Tywin was entirely within his rights to do. Most of our POVs, at least while he's alive, are from people who have personal reasons to dislike Tywin, and that together with our modern value system colours our perception of him. We also know that he is not just a hard and ruthless man in public, but a cruel and hypocritical man in private. Overall, though, Tywin is generally considered a great, if terrifying, man.

Kevan is a younger brother who displays absolute loyalty to his older brother and liege lord. This may be partially motivated by guilt for his potential, involuntary, involvement in the killing of his grandfather, but whatever the motivation, it's considered good behaviour in Westeros. This is entirely in keeping with what we expect of our heroes: his mentality fits in with the Tully house words, with the behaviour of the younger Stark children, with the criticisms levelled at Renly for not siding with Stannis, etc. Had he grown up in a different house, we might have got another Ned Stark, or Garlan Tyrell, or a better version of the Blackfish. But unfortunately he was Tywin's brother.

It is essentially the same problem we have with Barristan. Barristan is universally respected IC as an honourable and good man and a perfect knight. But among the readership, he is viewed with more cynicism - called a jackbooted thug in some quarters - for his uncritical service to Aerys. I think this perception gap is intentional: GRRM wants the reader to understand that there is a difference in values between Westeros and the modern west, and to appreciate that what is or is not considered "good" is cultural as much as anything.

Of course not all Tywin's brothers did what Kevan did: the other two seemingly tried to forge their own path out of his shadow. Gerion we know a fair bit about, but Tygett has only been referenced in passing. It would be interesting to learn more about him.

I take those points.  Every leader has to be hard in order to survive.  Even Robb Stark can be brutal.

Tywin however, goes for overkill, even by the standards of his world, with an added element of sexual degradation for his victims.  He uses rape and sexual humiliation as punishments, and Ser Kevan endorses it.  He even endorses it for his own niece.

But yes, I can see that loyally following his brother’s orders would be seen as good, by many people in this world.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Jon Snow's gift from Bowen Marsh.  Marsh didn't want to do it but Jon left him no other choice.  

[Maegor_the_Cool]

21 minutes ago, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Jon Snow's gift from Bowen Marsh.  Marsh didn't want to do it but Jon left him no other choice.  

He had plenty of choices. Like falling in line as Jon attempted to save the Watch.

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Jon Snow's gift from Bowen Marsh.  Marsh didn't want to do it but Jon left him no other choice.

Already made that joke. Be more creative.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Lysa's death was also quite satisfying.

[Hugorfonics]

15 hours ago, Groo said:

I'm thinking more in terms of poetic justice. Gregor deserved a worse fate, but he also seemed to be largely unconscious for much of the torment.

Seemed? Im curious about seems. Like the current state of Ser Robert Strong

[Loose Bolt]

Going to capital screaming to everybody that he will kill crown prince is very bad idea. So Ned's older brother is my candidate for Darwin's award.

[James West]

Jon betrayed the Nw and so they gave him a traitor's death.  Yeah, so there is my answer.  We are talking about comeuppance here so it has to be Jon.  

Tywin deserved to die but not from the hands of his family.  If a relative of the families he killed were to do it, yes.  Not from the son he had supported with a lavish lifestyle.  

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, James West said:

Jon betrayed the Nw and so they gave him a traitor's death.  Yeah, so there is my answer.  We are talking about comeuppance here so it has to be Jon.  

Tywin deserved to die but not from the hands of his family.  If a relative of the families he killed were to do it, yes.  Not from the son he had supported with a lavish lifestyle.  

James, both myself and Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (formerly known as Skahaz mo Kandaq) have already made this joke. I even posted about how I'd already made the joke before. Did you read it?