I hate the Tyrells for what happened to Renly.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I assume that Ned did prepare him to be Lord of Winterfell, which isn't too far off from being King in the North.

Robb was also too young for that role, especially in a time of crisis. He barely manages the pressure. And when he has repeated success in the field the glory gets in his head.

You also cannot forget that Robb wasn't just 'the King in the North'. In fact, he never actually set foot in the North during his reign. He was also King of the Trident, and nobody ever prepared him for that responsibility. Had he only been King in the North he may have been able to isolate himself, close his borders, sit out the succession war, and perhaps try to hold on to his title even if he eventually had to give up his claim to sovereignty again.

But actually involving himself as a secessionist king in the very heartland of Westeros ensured he could gain no more allies. I mean, in context, why would the Vale ever support him even if Lysa had been more inclined to support her family? They would have no reason to join Robb's secessionist kingdom as far as we know. Nor do they seem to have a problem with the rule of the Iron Throne.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, but had Robb taken the River Lords with him, Edmure's stupid "Battle of the Fords" never happens and he has more men to use against Tywin, when he falls for his trap. I just don't understand the logic of invading the Western Lands, with such a small force.

I think Robb and Brynden were gaslighting Edmure.  A good general takes every opportunity he can to damage the enemy, unless expressly ordered to the contrary.

The West was denuded of soldiers.  6,000 cavalry and mounted infantry were quite capable of doing major harm, in terms of pillaging and burning. And medieval armies had to forage.  The thousands of cattle (and no doubt other livestock) that were lifted would be a big boost to Robb’s army (and cause starvation in the West, adding to the Lannisters’ problems).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Quote

Q: Why did Doran not join Renly against the Lannisters?
GRRM: Doran plays to win, whether at cyvasse or the game of thrones. Likely he did not see Renly as a winner. The emnity between Dorne and Highgarden also played a part, I am sure. 

The part about Doran not seeing Renly as a winner is interesting, given that Renly had by far the largest army.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:01 PM, Lord Varys said:

Robb was also too young for that role, especially in a time of crisis. He barely manages the pressure. And when he has repeated success in the field the glory gets in his head.

You also cannot forget that Robb wasn't just 'the King in the North'. In fact, he never actually set foot in the North during his reign. He was also King of the Trident, and nobody ever prepared him for that responsibility. Had he only been King in the North he may have been able to isolate himself, close his borders, sit out the succession war, and perhaps try to hold on to his title even if he eventually had to give up his claim to sovereignty again.

But actually involving himself as a secessionist king in the very heartland of Westeros ensured he could gain no more allies. I mean, in context, why would the Vale ever support him even if Lysa had been more inclined to support her family? They would have no reason to join Robb's secessionist kingdom as far as we know. Nor do they seem to have a problem with the rule of the Iron Throne.

If he just stayed in the North, he’d have been able to stay King, barring assassination. Even the South together wouldn’t be able to invade the North easily, and would definitely not be able to hold it for any extended periods of time. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

If he just stayed in the North, he’d have been able to stay King, barring assassination. Even the South together wouldn’t be able to invade the North easily, and would definitely not be able to hold it for any extended periods of time. 

The North wouldn't have been able to push back an invasion by an army fielded by all the southern kingdoms - and that's what Joffrey/Tommen or Renly would have used to bring it back into the fold after they defeated their southern rivals.

But it may not even have come to that. An independent North would have been easily cut off from the trade of the unified Targaryen Realm, leading to White Harbor losing a lot of its wealth. Worse, the Iron Throne would have little to no inclination to help out the Northmen with food imports and the like during a hard winter like that one that's coming now. Jon Snow intends to buy food in the Vale in ADwD - if the Iron Throne had consolidated its power by then the king might formally forbid his subjects to export vital goods to the North. Of course, smugglers and the like would continue to be a thing, but if the North's current population grew to the size it has because they could count on help from the south in harsh(er) winters then the lack of such help could have devastating effects.

[Angel Eyes]

I'm not quite sure what the plan between Renly and the Tyrells was for Margaery. Nobody divorces their wife unless they're a fanatic like Baelor (if the Faith of the Seven is like the Catholic Church they don't like divorce), so they'd be hard-pressed to get Robert to divorce Cersei. Then there's the whole question of an angry Tywin. And even if Robert marries Margaery, there's the elephant in the room that should be introduced: Joffrey. What's stopping Joffrey from murdering Robert and Margaery's children?

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

o they'd be hard-pressed to get Robert to divorce Cersei.

Get Robert to be horny enough to pass a law.

 

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Then there's the whole question of an angry Tywin.

Bigger army diplomacy.

 

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And even if Robert marries Margaery, there's the elephant in the room that should be introduced: Joffrey. What's stopping Joffrey from murdering Robert and Margaery's children?

Murdering Robert? The law and the fact that he is a child.

What's stopping him from taking his revenge once he is King? Nothing but truth be told i doubt Renly cared about that, giving his only priority was simply oust Cersei from power asap.

The Tyrells did have reason to be more concerned, which is why Renly is convincing Mace and not the other way around.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Murdering Robert? The law and the fact that he is a child.

Meant murdering any children Robert would have with Margaery.

[frenin]

43 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Meant murdering any children Robert would have with Margaery.

Ditto.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm not quite sure what the plan between Renly and the Tyrells was for Margaery. Nobody divorces their wife unless they're a fanatic like Baelor (if the Faith of the Seven is like the Catholic Church they don't like divorce), so they'd be hard-pressed to get Robert to divorce Cersei. Then there's the whole question of an angry Tywin. And even if Robert marries Margaery, there's the elephant in the room that should be introduced: Joffrey. What's stopping Joffrey from murdering Robert and Margaery's children?

It is weird to a point, but it is clear that the plan was to have Robert fall for Margaery like he fell for Lyanna - and if he did that, he would have done anything for her, like he did with Lyanna.

The plan seems to have been merely replace Cersei with Margaery - setting Cersei aside for Margaery, likely by keeping Cersei's children as Robert's legitimate heirs. This is not just a Targaryen thing but something kings did even before the Conquest.

Once Cersei was out of the picture, shipped back Casterly Rock (possibly along with Jaime), Renly and the Tyrells would have come up with other ways to ensure that Robert's children by his first wife wouldn't make problems - say, by marrying Joffrey (and perhaps Tommen and Myrcella, too) to one of Margaery's cousins.

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm not quite sure what the plan between Renly and the Tyrells was for Margaery. Nobody divorces their wife unless they're a fanatic like Baelor (if the Faith of the Seven is like the Catholic Church they don't like divorce), so they'd be hard-pressed to get Robert to divorce Cersei. Then there's the whole question of an angry Tywin. And even if Robert marries Margaery, there's the elephant in the room that should be introduced: Joffrey. What's stopping Joffrey from murdering Robert and Margaery's children?

Pretty sure GRRM was leaning into the Henry VIII comp there.