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I hate the Tyrells for what happened to Renly.


Maegor_the_Cool

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Renly is also self-aware.

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"...The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis. I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient—"

"—humble?" Catelyn supplied.

Renly laughed. "You must allow a king some flaws, my lady."

Contrast with Stannis:

Quote

Stannis pointed his shining sword at his brother. "I am not without mercy," thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:


There is that quote about the serving woman Tyrion takes from Renly who, therefore, supposedly knows how to keep her mouth shut.

Only read this far, agreed on Stannis above, but here, isn’t the more accurate sentence 

There is that quote about the serving woman Tyrion takes from Renly who, therefore, presumably knows how to keep her mouth shut.

And isn’t that a potentially very interesting and significant difference?

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13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly is also self-aware.

Contrast with Stannis:

Agreed generally, one quibble; Renly never demonstrates a lack of self-awareness and Stannis often does, that’s true. But Stannis does occasionally demonstrate self awareness. For example he overtly tries to use Davos as his shoulder angel. He is aware he lacks the gift of behaving in a way that doesn’t make people dislike you, okay, technically he says the gift of making people liking him, but I mean, it’s Stannis, allow me a little elbow room…he momentarily recognizes the fault in not looking to win the crown for anything but itself earlier…but later seems to revert. Anyways, point is, it’s not that he’s never demonstrably self-aware, it’s more that he’s very often demonstrated as lacking in self-awareness. 

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Renly and Loras would no doubt be fairly free in Renly's own manse, and yet their relationship is not something publicized. So the servants would, of course, know to keep their mouths shut.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Renly and Loras would no doubt be fairly free in Renly's own manse, and yet their relationship is not something publicized. So the servants would, of course, know to keep their mouths shut.

 

Yes, I meant to go more into this aspect and in terms of who says it, my vague recollection is either Cat or Tyrion?

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4 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Keep in mind that’s Renly talking about himself, not exactly an objective opinion.

You’re missing the point. It’s the last line in the quote.

 

edit to be more expansive/less didactic, Cat accuses him of being arrogant and he laughingly mea culpas AND indicates he has other weaknesses besides.

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8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Yes, I meant to go more into this aspect and in terms of who says it, my vague recollection is either Cat or Tyrion?

Tyrion. He hires Brella on to serve in the manse he's keeping Shae in because "Varys had suggested the woman to him; in former days, she had run Lord Renly's household in the city, which had given her a deal of practice at being blind, deaf, and mute."

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Tyrion. He hires Brella on to serve in the manse he's keeping Shae in because "Varys had suggested the woman to him; in former days, she had run Lord Renly's household in the city, which had given her a deal of practice at being blind, deaf, and mute."

Right, okay, thanks.
 

So the only ways to take that and assume it’s saying Renly is promiscuous is either:

 

*if the person is assuming Tyrion doesn’t know/mean it about Loras. Pretty impossible for Varys not to know.

*if either the person or Tyrion or Varys are assuming gay =promiscuous.

*Tyrion or Varys has some information on Renly’s sex life that no one else does and he doesn’t make it explicit for some reason. This is definitely possible, but should not be the default absent any actual evidence. 

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Yeah, it feels like a stretch to use the quote to say anything about the nature of Renly's relationship with Loras outside of the fact that they were lovers and did not hide it in Renly's manse. We've no evidence that Renly has had relations with anyone other than Loras, and vice versa, frankly. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, really not worth speculating on because there's simply too little information.

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9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, it feels like a stretch to use the quote to say anything about the nature of Renly's relationship with Loras outside of the fact that they were lovers and did not hide it in Renly's manse. We've no evidence that Renly has had relations with anyone other than Loras, and vice versa, frankly. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, really not worth speculating on because there's simply too little information.

And imo it is absolutely one of the truest loves shown in the series, at least from the outside. Yes, more for Loras because he’s not shadowbaby’d, but we often are told of Renly’s eye being likely to be on Loras, and considering how long they’ve been together, that’s not just lust. Or if it is it’s the kind many wish could be bottled and sold as love.

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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

Renly and Loras would no doubt be fairly free in Renly's own manse, and yet their relationship is not something publicized. So the servants would, of course, know to keep their mouths shut.

Not sure where you get it that Renly lived in a manse in the city rather than the Red Keep itself - to my knowledge we don't know where he lived. His household in the city could very well mean his household in the castle.

Of course - the quote could just refer to whatever Renly and Loras are doing in the privacy of Renly's home ... but this is not confirmed. Renly Baratheon was older than Loras, and presumably spend time in the city/at court on and off since Robert took the throne. He would have had a sex/romantic life even before he got the delicious Tyrell boy as a squire. And he could have entertained lovers at his home in Loras' absence.

However, the point never was that Renly had other lovers - although he very well may have had them. The point is that Loras seems to have been deeply in love with Renly whilst we have no confirmation at all that Renly felt the same way about Loras (and he may have had other lovers). And that is crucial, in my opinion, when you consider the dynamics between Renly and the Tyrells insofar as political schemes are concerned. Renly used Loras and the Tyrells for his own ends, not the other way around. If George wanted to present Renly as a more of a Tyrell puppet we would have gotten hints that Renly was deeply/madly in love with Loras.

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

And imo it is absolutely one of the truest loves shown in the series, at least from the outside. Yes, more for Loras because he’s not shadowbaby’d, but we often are told of Renly’s eye being likely to be on Loras, and considering how long they’ve been together, that’s not just lust. Or if it is it’s the kind many wish could be bottled and sold as love.

The bigger problem with their relationship is the age gap and the power dynamics coming with the knight-squire relationship. As a romance it works for me about as much as Dany-Drogo or Jon-Ygritte. That Dany and Jon and Loras feel deeply for their respective lover doesn't mean they had much of a choice falling for them.

Especially if you keep in mind that Loras may have been at Renly's mercy since he was ten years old or younger. Dunk & Egg show how easy it is for a knight to abuse his squire - even Jaime remembers how Merrett Frey abused his fellow squires. Just think about Bennis pinching both Dunk and Egg.

Now, I'm not saying Renly abused Loras. But he may have decided that he wanted that beautiful boy from the day he first set eyes on him - and then he would have worked towards that goal. The idea that this was a relationship of equals in light of the age gap and their earlier squire-knight relationship just cannot have any merit. Unless you fantasize about neither of them having a thing for the other until the proper time/age ... which would be a huge stretch.

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30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure where you get it that Renly lived in a manse in the city rather than the Red Keep itself - to my knowledge we don't know where he lived. His household in the city could very well mean his household in the castle.

Of course - the quote could just refer to whatever Renly and Loras are doing in the privacy of Renly's home ... but this is not confirmed. Renly Baratheon was older than Loras, and presumably spend time in the city/at court on and off since Robert took the throne. He would have had a sex/romantic life even before he got the delicious Tyrell boy as a squire. And he could have entertained lovers at his home in Loras' absence.

However, the point never was that Renly had other lovers - although he very well may have had them. The point is that Loras seems to have been deeply in love with Renly whilst we have no confirmation at all that Renly felt the same way about Loras (and he may have had other lovers). And that is crucial, in my opinion, when you consider the dynamics between Renly and the Tyrells insofar as political schemes are concerned. Renly used Loras and the Tyrells for his own ends, not the other way around. If George wanted to present Renly as a more of a Tyrell puppet we would have gotten hints that Renly was deeply/madly in love with Loras.

The bigger problem with their relationship is the age gap and the power dynamics coming with the knight-squire relationship. As a romance it works for me about as much as Dany-Drogo or Jon-Ygritte. That Dany and Jon and Loras feel deeply for their respective lover doesn't mean they had much of a choice falling for them.

Especially if you keep in mind that Loras may have been at Renly's mercy since he was ten years old or younger. Dunk & Egg show how easy it is for a knight to abuse his squire - even Jaime remembers how Merrett Frey abused his fellow squires. Just think about Bennis pinching both Dunk and Egg.

Now, I'm not saying Renly abused Loras. But he may have decided that he wanted that beautiful boy from the day he first set eyes on him - and then he would have worked towards that goal. The idea that this was a relationship of equals in light of the age gap and their earlier squire-knight relationship just cannot have any merit. Unless you fantasize about neither of them having a thing for the other until the proper time/age ... which would be a huge stretch.

I agree the age thing is troubling. I somewhat mitigate it the way GRRM does, but it’s not something I’m completely comfortable with. Don’t know how to quantify that, though, depends so much on questions we don’t have the answers to, most obviously about when it actually became a sexual relationship.
 

I am also under the impression that GRRM has stated or suggested he intended to show Renly & Loras as a true romance/positive relationship, but I can’t remember anything specific. So if that impression is true than either it started later on than often assumed, or GRRM thinks that moral standards are relative to their times, at least on some issues.  

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12 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I agree the age thing is troubling. I somewhat mitigate it the way GRRM does, but it’s not something I’m completely comfortable with. Don’t know how to quantify that, though, depends so much on questions we don’t have the answers to, most obviously about when it actually became a sexual relationship.

I am also under the impression that GRRM has stated or suggested he intended to show Renly & Loras as a true romance/positive relationship, but I can’t remember anything specific. So if that impression is true than either it started later on than often assumed, or GRRM thinks that moral standards are relative to their times, at least on some issues.  

Oh, I don't care so much about the moral implications of this whole thing ... my point is what the power dynamics mean for Renly's role in their overall relationship. Who is the guy who may have been seduced and who is the one who may have been doing the grooming/seducing part. Basically, who is the guy in charge. And that guy would also have been the one in charge of whatever political schemes these two were cooking up. At least presumably. Now, if we had any reason to believe Loras was a sly little schemer himself, more like his sister Margaery, say, we could speculate he may have put some ideas in Renly's head. But chances for that are pretty small, in light of what we know about Loras' personality and character.

Modern sensibilities kind of blur into it when the author tries to present it as an actual deep romance. The age gap is there just as the power dynamics are. And I mean, would we deem it truly romantic if Dunk & Egg got into the kissing, fondling, and cock-sucking department? The age gap between them is about the same as the gap between Renly and Loras, give or take. If the author told us this was 'totally fine' within his fictional universe I'm not sure we would agree with that. And if we actually imagine the details of Renly-Loras then this is the territory we would have to go to. With the caveat that it may have started only a couple of years later, say, when Loras was 12-14 or thereabouts. But we would agree that a romance between Dunk & Egg would be very strange, even if Egg was a couple of years older. And that would be mostly because of the non-romantic/sexual bond the squire-knight relationship should be about.

George seems to have kind of realized this since he specifically made Daeron and Jeremy squires serving at the same castle when they fell for each other. If you want to indicate a great romance better go with a more even/equal relationship dynamics. Renly and Loras do lack that - it might be unintentionally, but it is still there.

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Just now, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think that Renly needed any encouragement, the dude has loved being the center of attention since he was a child and he was already plotting for a while against the Lannisters at King's Landing. 

Agreed. He knew that the Lannisters were dangerous and ambitious and that when Robert died they would not want the royal uncles to be around or have influence. The Lannisters were no friends of his, and for him the situation around Robert had both more immediacy and much higher stakes for him, personally, than it did for the Tyrells.

He didn't need Loras to point any of this out or nudge him or whatever. He had plenty of reason to act on it himself. 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, if we had any reason to believe Loras was a sly little schemer himself, more like his sister Margaery, say, we could speculate he may have put some ideas in Renly's head. 

The fact that he cheated in his tilt against the Mountain in AGoT shows that he could be sly when he wanted to.

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3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The fact that he cheated in his tilt against the Mountain in AGoT shows that he could be sly when he wanted to.

Yes, but that's Loras showing he knows stuff about horses - which should be a given for one of the greatest knights of his generation. He acts within his field of expertise there. He is not dumb in general, just not really politically savvy or particularly good at manipulation or at detecting when he is played (e.g. folks convincing him to join Joff's KG, Cersei getting him to volunteer to take Dragonstone).

Or perhaps he even detected he was played in the Dragonstone incident - but he didn't care, believing himself to be invincible, anyway.

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