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Sansa and Harry the Heir


Craving Peaches

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33 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Why Timett ?

If I recall, there is a theory that he is the son of the Arryn girl taken by Burned Men on her way to her wedding.  Littlefinger mentioned her while explaining how Harry is the heir.

Even if he is her son, I doubt it would carry any weight.  Certainly not in-world, and probably not with most readers, either.  The assumption would be that she was an unwilling captive, so any offspring are entitled to nothing through her.

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Sansa doesn't need some Hairy the Bear. She needs someone to give her strong sons that will hate Lannisters and avenge her.

 

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Sometimes she would whisper his name into her pillow just to hear the sound of it. "Willas, Willas, Willas." Willas was as good a name as Loras, she supposed. They even sounded the same, a little. What did it matter about his leg? Willas would be Lord of Highgarden and she would be his lady.

She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

 

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After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

 

I would've proposed Shagga, because if you want a strong son, he is the man to seek. It is known.

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"Shagga wants every whore in this city of whores," complained Timett son of Timett.

"Yes," Shagga said, unabashed. "Shagga would give her a strong child."

"If she wants a strong child, she'll know whom to seek," Tyrion said. "Timett, see her out . . . gently, if you would."

But Sansa will likely end up with Jon. While in the meanwhile she may also spend some time with Timett, because he's a stand in for Jon. 

Both are "one eyed", Timett because he burned his eye and while Jon has kept his eye, he has a cool scar over it thanks to Orell's eagle. Timett is a redhand, a leader of men among his group and Jon too, is a leader of men in his group and his hand is literally red for a while, due to his burn. Jon is also a literal burned men with this.

Both men also share some resemblence to another one-eyed burned man, though he is no red hand, and was never a leader of men unlike the two, Sandor Clegane is someone Sansa has fantasized about(unkiss).

But I doubt anything will happen because Sansa is Tyrion's wife and Timett had respect for him, he even wanted to return to his service. 

 

 

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I don’t think Harry will last long. Whenever George talks about characters from the books who didn’t make it to the show (usually in the context of how TWOW will be different from GOT), he never mentions Harry or any of the Vale characters, really. I’ll be surprised if Sansa stays there much longer.

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11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think Harry will last long. Whenever George talks about characters from the books who didn’t make it to the show (usually in the context of how TWOW will be different from GOT), he never mentions Harry or any of the Vale characters, really. I’ll be surprised if Sansa stays there much longer.

I tend to agree.  The Vale is a detour, a place for Sansa to hide out, learn a few things, put her knowledge to use, and move on - most likely to the North.

The Vale is important because Sansa happens to be located there.  And Littlefinger is there to be an antagonist and foil for Sansa to deal with.  His downfall will probably be her coming out party, so to say.

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12 hours ago, Nevets said:

If I recall, there is a theory that he is the son of the Arryn girl taken by Burned Men on her way to her wedding.  Littlefinger mentioned her while explaining how Harry is the heir.

Even if he is her son, I doubt it would carry any weight.  Certainly not in-world, and probably not with most readers, either.  The assumption would be that she was an unwilling captive, so any offspring are entitled to nothing through her.

In RL medieval courting, kidnapping, forcibly marrying and then raping noble ladies for their inheritance (or w/e) was fairly common and mostly de facto accepted though it was always considered a bit barbaric or at least crass. The element that makes this iffy here is do the clans have enough clout to allow ~ acceptance. 

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15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Got to admit it - at least the motive appears correctly in this scenario, which it certainly doesn't for LF/Alayne being the murderers.

LF/Alayna being the murderers might have a legit motivation, ie the Riverlands. Yes, we know technically LF already has that, but his entire run in the Vale highlights his awareness of the real cache established ruling houses have (imo to an unrealistic degree) with their subjects, and his paper title would be greatly enhanced if his wife were to have a high claim. But Robert’s claim might supersede hers, and he has an entire kingdom to back his stake. If nothing else that’s a legit threat to LF’s rule over the Riverlands, if he in fact intends to go that route. 

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7 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

In RL medieval courting, kidnapping, forcibly marrying and then raping noble ladies for their inheritance (or w/e) was fairly common and mostly de facto accepted though it was always considered a bit barbaric or at least crass. The element that makes this iffy here is do the clans have enough clout to allow ~ acceptance. 

They have when a lot of the heirs and families present at the Tourney turn up dead.

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16 hours ago, Nevets said:

If I recall, there is a theory that he is the son of the Arryn girl taken by Burned Men on her way to her wedding.  Littlefinger mentioned her while explaining how Harry is the heir.

Even if he is her son, I doubt it would carry any weight.  Certainly not in-world, and probably not with most readers, either.  The assumption would be that she was an unwilling captive, so any offspring are entitled to nothing through her.

Yes. Also the belief is they worshipped a fire witch in the past, maybe still - so the Valemen would consider the wildlings heathens, and any marriage (if there was) wouldn't be accepted by them.

The Valemen wouldn't have one of their old enemies as lord anyway, certainly not Timmet, who is terrifying. The only option is mass deaths in the Vale and Timmet king of the apocalypse.  Can't see Sansa in that.

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The thing is that GRRM almost never talks about Sansa at all. Maybe he isn’t sure how to move forward with her story?

I didn't know that. My bet is her arc switches away from the human game of thrones and the south. A Stark's destiny can only be in the north,where the monsters are, and Sansa's endless terrors of Ilyn Payne are a premonition of this.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The thing is that GRRM almost never talks about Sansa at all. Maybe he isn’t sure how to move forward with her story?

Him publishing the tWoW pre-tourney chapter of Sansa right before S5 of the abomination aired would suggest otherwise.

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44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Him publishing the tWoW pre-tourney chapter of Sansa right before S5 of the abomination aired would suggest otherwise.

But nothing aside from that. Over the years, he has mentioned working on Arya, Tyrion, Cersei and even Victarion and Areo Hotah several times, but nothing about Sansa. Unless I’ve missed something.

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13 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But nothing aside from that. Over the years, he has mentioned working on Arya, Tyrion, Cersei and even Victarion and Areo Hotah several times, but nothing about Sansa. Unless I’ve missed something.

Indeed, hasn't mentioned that. It may be that some of the timing may be relevant to the other chapters. While the first 2-3 chapters of Sansa can occur much in isolation of the rest of the story, it's not so for when Sansa lays down the name of Alayne and manages to rally Royce and other men of the Vale to journey for the North (most likely by sea to White Harbor).

This depends on both Stannis's and Cersei's and Davos' arc no doubt, and part of Stannis's and Cersei's we also learn via info in Arya's chapters.

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On 1/21/2023 at 8:00 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I would like it if Harry turned out to actually be a nice man who cared for Sansa and respected her. And that the prior rudeness was just him having a bad day. Sansa deserves someone who is nice and can make her feel happy. Then they can bring down Littlefinger's scheming and live happily ever after. There has been too much 'subverting expectations' just to make everyone miserable.

I'm not sure who, other than LF, actually expects her to actually marry Harry.  But LF's plans ought to be subverted.  In this case, they appear to revolve around a plot to murder Sweetrobin.

LF expects Sansa to be his compliant puppet.  Too frightened to resist because she is scared of exposure.  I hope he is wrong.

Harry was rude to Alayne, and unenthusiastic about the marriage scheme.  He changed his mind.  Probably because LF explained to him privately that Sweetrobin really IS going to die.  Unless Harry does not play along and do what LF wants.  In which case, maybe Sweetrobin won't die.

As for Sansa, it is my belief and hope that we do not see all her private thoughts.  In her "Alayne" chapters she is playing a role, as LF's dutiful daughter, and we do not gain access to her innermost thoughts as Sansa Stark.

We do not, for instance, get access to Sansa's thoughts when she convinces LF to hold the tournament.  We only get Alayne looking back on what she told "father".  But I think Sansa's goal is this:  surround Sweetrobin with 8 knights who are (at least in theory) loyal to Sweetrobin, choose one or more of these that she trusts and reveal her suspicions to them, then make her next move.  Which is unclear at this point, but may end up being (for instance) an escape from the Vale, with Sweetrobin in tow, under the protection of one or more of Sweetrobin's "winged knights".

Let Sansa at least try to save Sweetrobin, before we say that she "deserves" a happy ending.  And as for Harry the Heir, I hope he gets stuffed.

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20 hours ago, James Arryn said:

In RL medieval courting, kidnapping, forcibly marrying and then raping noble ladies for their inheritance (or w/e) was fairly common and mostly de facto accepted though it was always considered a bit barbaric or at least crass. The element that makes this iffy here is do the clans have enough clout to allow ~ acceptance. 

It could backfire, however.  Maria of Calabria was abducted, forcibly wed, and raped.  She had her husband and his father hacked apart by swordsmen.

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On 1/21/2023 at 4:30 PM, Craving Peaches said:

I would like it if Harry turned out to actually be a nice man who cared for Sansa and respected her. And that the prior rudeness was just him having a bad day. Sansa deserves someone who is nice and can make her feel happy. Then they can bring down Littlefinger's scheming and live happily ever after. There has been too much 'subverting expectations' just to make everyone miserable.

Harry is not that person . as mentioned above, Harry is basically a Robert 2.0 . even if he does fall for the Stark lady, he'd likely be more than willing to detour in brothels on his way heading towards her. 

if it were up to me , at the end of the series Sansa would end up with someone like Ned Dayne , beginning a new chapter in life after she has come back to Winterfell, reunited with her siblings, and done her part in Stark policy plans. somewhat like Elaena Targaryen .  but as it is up to George , probably the best Sansa can hope for is to have the Hound as her lover . it won't be all that bad , knowing Sandor might just turn out to be a perfect not-knight who has been in rage rehab in the Quiet Isle ! but it's still got a too toxic base for my liking .

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23 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Vale is a detour, a place for Sansa to hide out, learn a few things, put her knowledge to use, and move on - most likely to the North.

I agree that the Vale is a detour but I don't think she returns to the North. If the story wasn't overly expanded, I don't think Sansa would leave King's Landing at all, and LF would get killed before Act 1 was over. I think Sansa is destined back to King's Landing via Shadrich.

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9 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I agree that the Vale is a detour but I don't think she returns to the North. If the story wasn't overly expanded, I don't think Sansa would leave King's Landing at all, and LF would get killed before Act 1 was over. I think Sansa is destined back to King's Landing via Shadrich.

That would feel to me like the plot moving in circles.  But that's only my first reaction.  It depends on what happens when she returns, I guess.

Shadrick isn't the only hunter in the woods.  My guess is that quite a few missing characters will descend upon the Vale.

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I took GRRM not mentioning working on Sansa’s chapters as a sign that he was able to get through them fairly quickly. Eleven years down the line, I tend to think that the chapters he’s still working on are the ones that are giving him trouble.

Of course, it could also mean that Sansa is still fairly isolated from other POV characters, so he doesn’t need to tweak them in accordance with other chapters, but I find it hard to believe that she‘ll spend another book cut off from the other characters. 

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

I agree that the Vale is a detour but I don't think she returns to the North. If the story wasn't overly expanded, I don't think Sansa would leave King's Landing at all, and LF would get killed before Act 1 was over. I think Sansa is destined back to King's Landing via Shadrich.

One compelling argument I saw is that Sansa was sent to the Vale because of the intended time jump. If she is supposed to be in KL when Aegon arrives, then it wouldn’t have made sense for her to have been in a stasis as Cersei’s captive for all that time.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

Harry is not that person . as mentioned above, Harry is basically a Robert 2.0 . even if he does fall for the Stark lady, he'd likely be more than willing to detour in brothels on his way heading towards her. 

if it were up to me , at the end of the series Sansa would end up with someone like Ned Dayne , beginning a new chapter in life after she has come back to Winterfell, reunited with her siblings, and done her part in Stark policy plans. somewhat like Elaena Targaryen .  but as it is up to George , probably the best Sansa can hope for is to have the Hound as her lover . it won't be all that bad , knowing Sandor might just turn out to be a perfect not-knight who has been in rage rehab in the Quiet Isle ! but it's still got a too toxic base for my liking .

I think Harry’s worse than Robert. Robert was always personable, which was why so many people liked him. Harry doesn’t seem to have a winning personality. 

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