Sansa and Harry the Heir

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:51 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

 

Nice theory, though I don't see the Valemen ever accepting a mountain clansman as a Arryn and even giving him a small portion of the Eyrie.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Nice theory, though I don't see the Valemen ever accepting a mountain clansman as a Arryn and even giving him a small portion of the Eyrie.

They might, if Timett does the necessary paperwork.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

They might, if Timett does the necessary paperwork.

I don't think he ever will, he grew up in an environment where paperwork is alien and even some nice paper can't beat the prejudice and grudge against mountain clans. 

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think he ever will, he grew up in an environment where paperwork is alien and even some nice paper can't beat the prejudice and grudge against mountain clans. 

Timett is not to be confused with the unmannered and uneducated Shagga. He can be very well behaved in KL. 

[Mithras]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One compelling argument I saw is that Sansa was sent to the Vale because of the intended time jump. If she is supposed to be in KL when Aegon arrives, then it wouldn’t have made sense for her to have been in a stasis as Cersei’s captive for all that time.

The 5 year time jump was created during the writing of ACoK when the series expanded from 4 books to 6. ASoS was written specifically to have a time jump at the end. If GRRM kept the 4 book plan, ASoS would not even exist in the first place, and much of the stuff that turned into current major plot threads in need for resolution simply would not exist. Likewise, many of the newer POVs would not exist. With Sansa at King's Landing, GRRM wouldn't need to create a Cersei or even Jaime POV.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Mithras said:

The 5 year time jump was created during the writing of ACoK when the series expanded from 4 books to 6. ASoS was written specifically to have a time jump at the end. If GRRM kept the 4 book plan, ASoS would not even exist in the first place, and much of the stuff that turned into current major plot threads in need for resolution simply would not exist. Likewise, many of the newer POVs would not exist. With Sansa at King's Landing, GRRM wouldn't need to create a Cersei or even Jaime POV.

Correct, but because he couldn't do the 5 year jump, he created Arianne to meet up with Aegon VI, opening up another scenario for Sansa. Notice that George did allude that where once he didn't count Sansa amongst the "big 5" initially, he now counts her amongst the "big 6". It means that he must have changed his mind about her originally intended fate, and that Arianne will have Sansa's original fate.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't think he ever will, he grew up in an environment where paperwork is alien and even some nice paper can't beat the prejudice and grudge against mountain clans. 

But seriously, something has to come out of the fact that Tyrion promised the Vale to the mountain clans, no?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

58 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But seriously, something has to come out of the fact that Tyrion promised the Vale to the mountain clans, no?

It already did, the Mountain clans became much better armed and they played a non-negligible role into preventing Stannis from winning the Iron Throne by neutralizing Stannis' scouts. 

But to see the clans taking over the Vale again is just pure wishing, even with better weapons and organisation they aren't numerous, disciplined, well-equipped and organised enough to pose a true threat to the Valemen.  

The clans will surely play a role but I won't bet on them getting exactly what Tyrion promised them, he already failed to make it true.

Edited January 23 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

But to see the clans taking over the Vale again is just pure wishing, even with better weapons and organisation they aren't numerous, disciplined, well-equipped and organised enough to pose a true threat to the Valemen.  

And why are you so certain that there will be enough Valemen to oppose the mountain clans?

The cream of the Vale crop, except for House Royce, is all gathered at the Gates of the Moon, at the bottom of the valley, at the bottom of a mountain called Giant's Lance. For a tourney! When has a tourney featured in the books or side-books not end in some disaster and was ended prematurely? In the Hand's tourney in aGoT a Vale knight was slain by the "Mountain" and "his lance". The Vale knight's sigil of crescent moons end up soaked with blood. And this occurs in Sansa's POV who watches it in an almost dissociated attitude while Jeyne Poole next to her cries and is unconsolable.

That same Mountain that Rides with his lance is also said to thunder passed like an "avalanche". And when Cat journeys all the way up to the Eyrie, she thinks a certain spot might be great to cause an avalanche. By the time Sansa descends to the Gates of the Moon (that she once looked upon as doll's castle filled ith ants to be stepped on) that mountain Giant's Lance is snowpacked knee deep. As steep as it is, it is an avalanche hazard. One tremble (remember Sweetrobin having tremors on top of Sansa's snow castle, destroying it?) and that's a canon of deadly snow barreling down onto everyone at the Gates of the Moon.

If such a thing were to happen, then the mountain clans only have to mop up the leftovers.

This is why imo George kept Royce away from the tourney. He needs some forces safely away from the foreshadowed disaster area to back and aid Sansa. But I don't see why a Royce would object to an Arryn heir with FM blood. He'll probably wed his own daughter to Timett.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

And why are you so certain that there will be enough Valemen to oppose the mountain clans?

The cream of the Vale crop, except for House Royce, is all gathered at the Gates of the Moon, at the bottom of the valley, at the bottom of a mountain called Giant's Lance. For a tourney! When has a tourney featured in the books or side-books not end in some disaster and was ended prematurely? In the Hand's tourney in aGoT a Vale knight was slain by the "Mountain" and "his lance". The Vale knight's sigil of crescent moons end up soaked with blood. And this occurs in Sansa's POV who watches it in an almost dissociated attitude while Jeyne Poole next to her cries and is unconsolable.

That same Mountain that Rides with his lance is also said to thunder passed like an "avalanche". And when Cat journeys all the way up to the Eyrie, she thinks a certain spot might be great to cause an avalanche. By the time Sansa descends to the Gates of the Moon (that she once looked upon as doll's castle filled ith ants to be stepped on) that mountain Giant's Lance is snowpacked knee deep. As steep as it is, it is an avalanche hazard. One tremble (remember Sweetrobin having tremors on top of Sansa's snow castle, destroying it?) and that's a canon of deadly snow barreling down onto everyone at the Gates of the Moon.

If such a thing were to happen, then the mountain clans only have to mop up the leftovers.

This is why imo George kept Royce away from the tourney. He needs some forces safely away from the foreshadowed disaster area to back and aid Sansa. But I don't see why a Royce would object to an Arryn heir with FM blood. He'll probably wed his own daughter to Timett.

And how many are the clansmen themselves ? A few thousands ? Tens of thousands ? 

Certainely not enough to take on the whole of the Vale even with a good portion of the region military gone in the North/Riverlands. 

And they still aren't prepared for sieges or battles against an organised army with knights and heavy infantry. They may advantage of the knights of the Vale absence for a time but once the effect of surprise is gone they are going to have a hard time against fortified castles and towns.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

The only thing that makes me question a potential romance with Harry is whether it would deviate her from her Winterfell plot. It's a strong, recurring theme in her arc (although I suppose you could say that about all the Stark children.) Marrying Harry, and supposing he survives LF's game, means staying in The Vale. The Vale is basically a copied and pasted King's Landing to her, so I have a feeling she'll make a second escape for home. Most likely without Harry. Ps, I'm sorry about my answer, I know it wasn't exactly pertaining to your specific question. I'm just always getting off track.

It would be nice if he genuinely cared about her. I just don't trust him though, as he already has one bastard child with another one on the way, both with two different ladies. It reminds me of Robert when he was in The Vale with Ned.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Marrying Harry, and supposing he survives LF's game, means staying in The Vale.

I don’t know how much it matters now, but back in 2002, or thereabouts, GRRM said that Littlefinger would get into trouble in the Vale because for all his titles, he doesn’t have an actual army.

[Gilbert Green]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think Harry’s worse than Robert. Robert was always personable, which was why so many people liked him. Harry doesn’t seem to have a winning personality. 

Yeah.  Harry is not Robert 2.0.  He is more like a beta version of Robert, before they added in a few virtues.

[Gilbert Green]

Think about it.  Harry does not like Alayne, and considers her beneath him.    So why would he agree to marry her?  To inherit the Vale?  But surely he would inherit the Vale anyway, if Sweetrobin dies?

Possible Answer:   Harry is in on the murder plot.  Harry must agree to marry Alayne, because otherwise Sweetrobin won't die.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Harry does not like Alayne, and considers her beneath him.  

That changes by the time the feast begins He simps for her through the entire thing.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don’t know how much it matters now, but back in 2002, or thereabouts, GRRM said that Littlefinger would get into trouble in the Vale because for all his titles, he doesn’t have an actual army.

It'll be a long time coming. I hate drinking, but the day Littlefinger begins to suffer from his own game I'm going to open a bottle of wine and relish in the moment.

[Gilbert Green]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That changes by the time the feast begins He simps for her through the entire thing.

What changed then?  Did he suddenly realize she was pretty?  Or did LF and Harry have a private conversation?  About what?

I know he changed his mind.  The question is:  why?

[Mithras]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But seriously, something has to come out of the fact that Tyrion promised the Vale to the mountain clans, no?

When Tyrion made that promise, Wardens were a big deal in the story. More important stuff than the mountain clans fell victim to the writing process.

[sweetsunray]

59 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And how many are the clansmen themselves ? A few thousands ? Tens of thousands ? 

Certainely not enough to take on the whole of the Vale even with a good portion of the region military gone in the North/Riverlands. 

And they still aren't prepared for sieges or battles against an organised army with knights and heavy infantry. They may advantage of the knights of the Vale absence for a time but once the effect of surprise is gone they are going to have a hard time against fortified castles and towns.

They are apparently numerous enough to have once make the Arryn scared shitless. He wanted to build a palace to replace the fortress, the Gates of the Moon, but the mountain clans attacked and the Andals took a serious beating. That's when he decided to build the Eyrie, high above ground instead.

Note too that the clansmen tend to attack at wintertime - better to die fighting than to starve in the snowed in mountains.

You forget that almost every Lord and Lady and their heirs and brothers are at the tourney. If most of these die because of the avalanche who is going to raise levies from amongst their farmers? Nobody! And how would they even manage to march onto a captured rubble of the Gates of the Moon when the mountain ranges get further snowed in and passes are cut off. The remaining surviving heirs or lords of the Vale won't be able to mount any siege until spring. This is where the clansmen have the advantage, having experience with surviving in mountains and a very large store of food that LIttlefinger so nicely provided for.

Edited January 23 by sweetsunray

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Did he suddenly realize she was pretty?

It could be as simple as that, given how much of a womaniser Harrold is.