Red Wedding 2.0, How will it transpire? Who will perish?

[Maegor_the_Cool]

With the upcoming nuptials, it seems certain that the BWB are present in Riverrun. With Lady Stoneheart in charge of the brotherhood it seems certain that a repeat of the Red Wedding is nigh.

It seems certain to me that Devan is going to perish during the massacre, which is a shame because he seems like the only Lannister other than Jaime with any sense of honor.  
 

Hopefully Walder Frey will be in attendance and tortured by Lady Stoneheart.

[Nevets]

Daven Lannister is no fool.  Given how inviting a target his wedding will be, security will be insanely tight.  Entrances will be locked and/or heavily guarded.  I expect many guardsmen will not participate in the proceedings and may have their own supplies.  The staff at Riverrun will be required to eat and drink with the rest to inhibit poisoning.

The BwB may pick off parties of Freys headed to the wedding.  But if they try to attack the wedding itself, it will likely go badly.  I realize this is not the majority opinion.  But assuming characters will be careless, especially if they have shown otherwise, is a good way to go astray, or court disaster.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Daven Lannister is no fool.  Given how inviting a target his wedding will be, security will be insanely tight.  Entrances will be locked and/or heavily guarded.  I expect many guardsmen will not participate in the proceedings and may have their own supplies.  The staff at Riverrun will be required to eat and drink with the rest to inhibit poisoning.

The BwB may pick off parties of Freys headed to the wedding.  But if they try to attack the wedding itself, it will likely go badly.  I realize this is not the majority opinion.  But assuming characters will be careless, especially if they have shown otherwise, is a good way to go astray, or court disaster.

I think Riverrun has already been infiltrated. Tom of Sevenstreams is there already, and I doubt he is alone. I wouldn’t be surprised if the servants of the castle are part of the plot. Given the nature of the Lannisters and Freys and how new they are to Riverrun, I doubt they’d notice new faces in the servants.

[Nevets]

10 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

I think Riverrun has already been infiltrated. Tom of Sevenstreams is there already, and I doubt he is alone. I wouldn’t be surprised if the servants of the castle are part of the plot. Given the nature of the Lannisters and Freys and how new they are to Riverrun, I doubt they’d notice new faces in the servants.

Daven knows most of the servants at Riverrun are holdovers from the Tullys.  He's going to trust them as far as he can throw them.  Daven will probably assume the staff isn't friendly and act accordingly.  Hence my comment about eating and drinking the same stuff as the guests.  Tom can do as he likes, but I would expect his presence, or that of infiltrators in general, has been anticipated.  

[Craving Peaches]

I predict a lot of innocent people will die in the attack.

[sweetsunray]

Daven is smarter than most Lannisters and Freys about him, but he's not the smartest one either, and nothing in his command of the siege of Riverrun shouts "everybody will obey his command". The Freys certainly cared not one jot, nor did the other forces that accepted Tommen's peace. Daven certainly is not smart enough not to discuss whom he trusts or doesn't trust in front of Jaime's squires, just like Jaime had a very important off page exchange with Edmure with Tom Sevenstreams as a witness. Jaime wasn't trusting either, and look where it got him. It's not even Daven's castle, but Emmon Frey's. So, good luck with the assumption that Daven Lannister will have tight control over who gets the drink or not. Even if he wants to be careful, the Freys will wave off any of his concerns to a few outlaws in the woods. And the Freys cannot conceive of servants plotting either. They're too arrogant for it.

They'll be well and good drunk in the hall, and the hallways and the gates, with the help of the prostitutes (also BwB), and those inside already will let the rest in. Not to mention how much of them can already pose as being a Frey soldier or Lannister one, from their ambushes on foraging or patrolling forces. Most will be killed before they can grab a weapon well and good in their self defense. The major Freys and Lannisters will be taken captive, they'll plead, and LS walks in. Prominent Freys get hanged in the hall from the rafters I think (LS doesn't want to defile her family's home with their blood methinks) and a select few or one she lets live as witnesses to spread the story how the gods avenged the breaking of guest right. Then she'll take Jaime out into the godswood before the slender weirwood where Robb once prayed, and intends to take Jaime's life with Oathkeeper in front of it, but Bran intervenes.

 

[SeanF]

I expect that it will be a bloodbath, as will the Dornish/Golden Company’s capture of King’s Landing.

The victors will go for the same overkill that Tywin Lannister did.  They’ll murder their enemies’ women and children, just as he did.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Daven is smarter than most Lannisters and Freys about him, but he's not the smartest one either, and nothing in his command of the siege of Riverrun shouts "everybody will obey his command". The Freys certainly cared not one jot, nor did the other forces that accepted Tommen's peace. Daven certainly is not smart enough not to discuss whom he trusts or doesn't trust in front of Jaime's squires, just like Jaime had a very important off page exchange with Edmure with Tom Sevenstreams as a witness. Jaime wasn't trusting either, and look where it got him. It's not even Daven's castle, but Emmon Frey's. So, good luck with the assumption that Daven Lannister will have tight control over who gets the drink or not. Even if he wants to be careful, the Freys will wave off any of his concerns to a few outlaws in the woods. And the Freys cannot conceive of servants plotting either. They're too arrogant for it.

They'll be well and good drunk in the hall, and the hallways and the gates, with the help of the prostitutes (also BwB), and those inside already will let the rest in. Not to mention how much of them can already pose as being a Frey soldier or Lannister one, from their ambushes on foraging or patrolling forces. Most will be killed before they can grab a weapon well and good in their self defense. The major Freys and Lannisters will be taken captive, they'll plead, and LS walks in. Prominent Freys get hanged in the hall from the rafters I think (LS doesn't want to defile her family's home with their blood methinks) and a select few or one she lets live as witnesses to spread the story how the gods avenged the breaking of guest right. Then she'll take Jaime out into the godswood before the slender weirwood where Robb once prayed, and intends to take Jaime's life with Oathkeeper in front of it, but Bran intervenes.

 

Do you think Bran warging into her will bring her peace?

[Angel Eyes]

My hope is that they'll leave most of the civilians alive like the 47 ronin, but given Martin's track record with hope it's likely a vain one.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Do you think Bran warging into her will bring her peace?

I don't think Bran will skinchange LS (because he learned that things may go very wrong if he does to someone who does not volunteer). I think he will reach out via the tree itself, as he did with Theon in WF. Both Jaime and LS will hear him.  

[Maegor_the_Cool]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think Bran will skinchange LS (because he learned that things may go very wrong if he does to someone who does not volunteer). I think he will reach out via the tree itself, as he did with Theon in WF. Both Jaime and LS will hear him.  

Do you think that could give Jaime some kind of Faith in the Old Gods? That’s be kinda interesting to read.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Do you think that could give Jaime some kind of Faith in the Old Gods? That’s be kinda interesting to read.

I do think Bran's arc towards other people is that of a conversion to the old gods, yes.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I do think Bran's arc towards other people is that of a conversion to the old gods, yes.

Do you think he’ll think Bran is dead or will he know that bran is just speaking through the weirwood

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Do you think he’ll think Bran is dead or will he know that bran is just speaking through the weirwood

I'm not sure...Maybe he whispers that he is alive, I don't know. Maybe he just whispers "mother" and "Jaime" with such empathy, as he did with Theon, and that may be enough. Maybe he reaches out with a leaf or a branch.

I think what will be most important is that both hear his voice and their names, spoken with empathy and forgiveness.

It would circle it all back to the moment when Cat chose to release Jaime from RR at the end of aCoK. She released Jaime upon learning of Bran's and Rickon's death at the hands of Theon after he just confessed to chucking Bran out of a window because Bran found Jaime with Cersei, all to save Sansa who has also been lost as well as Arya (and she knows Arya was with the BwB and been witnessed to going as far as Saltpans). As a consequence of releasing Jaime, Karstark defected and murdered two Lannister kids, and Robb chopped his head off for it.  And then she has come to believe that Jaime was in on the Red Wedding scheme, helped to take her home from her surviving family and threatened to chuck Edmure's child across the Walls (after he had promised not to take up arms against hers and her family ever again).

The sole character imo who can resolve this masked guilt and psychological drama that LS endured ever since releasing Jaime would be Bran. And his sign of forgiveness would be a miracle to Jaime just as it was for Theon, and break through all the (self)hatred that is a protective barrier over LS's deep deep grief.

[Curled Finger]

A Red Wedding 2.0 is a nasty thing to ponder.  Much as I think the Lannister/Frey alliance believes they have things well in hand we plainly read things are not with conspiracies to thwart them in every other castle and camp.  Tom O' Sevens is only 1 of surely many infiltrators in the ranks.  Thoros tells Arya how 20 men join for every man lost to the BwB back in the very early days.   Their ranks have swelled with broken men made from war in the Riverlands.  The point here is that the BwB is a deeply underground movement that is much larger than I believe we are told.  From the humblest of workers to badass soldiers the BwB is a serious threat to the governing forces of the Riverlands.  Add a large pack of ravenous wolves led by a giant dire wolf to this dangerous guerilla militia and the Lannister/Frey folk have little hope for survival here.

It is interesting that the Riverlands is where the BwB was both formed and stayed and thrived.  They are the stifled  outrage of the people in villages and castles.  They are the embodiment of all the hope left in the midlands of a continent decimated by war facing winter.  This wedding has to be a sort of blasphemy to all the citizens of this land with the usurping of the fair lords of Riverrun and placing of the miserly and miserable Freys in their place.  What can the great or small folk have to look forward to under Frey or Lannister rule now?  Is it any wonder so many of them cast their confidence and support in a secret revolution?  

What will happen?  Revenge.  Bloody, stinking, horrifying revenge will happen.  I hope it will be less horrifying than Lady Darcy or Robb's deaths, but I doubt it.  Innocent Freys will die alongside the guilty as will smirking self satisfied Lannisters who had nothing to do with anything.  Maybe Aunt Gemma will die fast.  I liked her.  I doubt I will enjoy reading this beyond Walder's death, however it comes.  

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Innocent Freys will die alongside the guilty as will smirking self satisfied Lannisters who had nothing to do with anything.  Maybe Aunt Gemma will die fast.  I liked her. 

I agree on both accounts, but then again, while they had nothing to do with the planning and execution of it, they are hoping to reap the fruits from it. At least the other Freys made their hands dirty over it.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree on both accounts, but then again, while they had nothing to do with the planning and execution of it, they are hoping to reap the fruits from it. At least the other Freys made their hands dirty over it.

Well to be fair to them, their only other choice is to renounce family and become destitute.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Maegor Targaryen I said:

Well to be fair to them, their only other choice is to renounce family and become destitute.

Aemon Frey with his attitude at the siege? "It's my castle!"

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

A Red Wedding 2.0 is a nasty thing to ponder.  Much as I think the Lannister/Frey alliance believes they have things well in hand we plainly read things are not with conspiracies to thwart them in every other castle and camp.  Tom O' Sevens is only 1 of surely many infiltrators in the ranks.  Thoros tells Arya how 20 men join for every man lost to the BwB back in the very early days.   Their ranks have swelled with broken men made from war in the Riverlands.  The point here is that the BwB is a deeply underground movement that is much larger than I believe we are told.  From the humblest of workers to badass soldiers the BwB is a serious threat to the governing forces of the Riverlands.  Add a large pack of ravenous wolves led by a giant dire wolf to this dangerous guerilla militia and the Lannister/Frey folk have little hope for survival here.

It is interesting that the Riverlands is where the BwB was both formed and stayed and thrived.  They are the stifled  outrage of the people in villages and castles.  They are the embodiment of all the hope left in the midlands of a continent decimated by war facing winter.  This wedding has to be a sort of blasphemy to all the citizens of this land with the usurping of the fair lords of Riverrun and placing of the miserly and miserable Freys in their place.  What can the great or small folk have to look forward to under Frey or Lannister rule now?  Is it any wonder so many of them cast their confidence and support in a secret revolution?  

What will happen?  Revenge.  Bloody, stinking, horrifying revenge will happen.  I hope it will be less horrifying than Lady Darcy or Robb's deaths, but I doubt it.  Innocent Freys will die alongside the guilty as will smirking self satisfied Lannisters who had nothing to do with anything.  Maybe Aunt Gemma will die fast.  I liked her.  I doubt I will enjoy reading this beyond Walder's death, however it comes.  

The BWB also have the backing of much of the region’s nobility, like Lady Smallwood, who provides refuge and supplies.  They resemble the Spanish partidas in 1808-14, who likewise had a lot of upper class patronage.

The Freys and Lannisters simply have no backing, among rich and poor alike.

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree on both accounts, but then again, while they had nothing to do with the planning and execution of it, they are hoping to reap the fruits from it. At least the other Freys made their hands dirty over it.

I kept thinking of the little Lannister bastard, Joy, and all the children I suppose.  These topics, while surprisingly exciting, make me sad this morning.