boltons are sick Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Considering he instigated The War of the Five Kings by manipulating to events to his advantage, I would say yes, but what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 The cool.thing about asoiaf is everyone has their own perspective ,.every character is right from their own pov and every one of them feels justified in their actions. From the others to roose to drogo and even old LF himself. Playing devils advocate here we have a guy whos born into the shitty feudal system, now hes born with a better lot in life than 99% of its people to be fair but due to his father he gets to see how the elite of the elite live at the tullys as a ward. He has the audacity to fall in love with one of the sisters and unfairly she rejects him, some brute from the north will have her instead ...as society expects he tries to challenge for her hand and is badly mutilated and left for dead. Hes raped by one sister and for the rest of his life thinks it was the other... hel think that she loved him back and only realised it when he was laying wounded but was forced to go north and marry another stranger. The unfairness of it as hes bundled off to the fingers again not only away from his love but away from his childhood luxury home ,friends and the nicer things in life. The entire system is unfair as he sees people he knows hes much smarter than get everything they want handed to them whereas he can never advance the normal way....getting a taste of the high life is probably crueler than had he never experienced it at all! Then he get in contact with lysa and get the huge oppertunity at the vale harbour, one he excels at. He understands buisness and money and begins to make waves. The incompetents placed in charge due to nepotism of various lords are out and his own men, sharp men are wheeled in. Gold as we hear instead of sitting around is invested and put to use ....LF and his men are probably skimming but then so most likely where the previous useless moneymen . He begins to invest in whorehouses and winesinks and he rises , not only are these goldmines but a smart man knows drunk men talk as do men laying in bed with whores... thus he has a growing information network which in turn help him invest smartly. Jon arryn we know at this stage is deeply concerned with the crowns growing debts where once it had full.coffers, robert wont listen to him but word reaches him through his wife and bannermen of the fianncial boost the vales ports have experienced. Littlefinger rises to master of coin at KL and again works his magic with the state finances while at the same time making himself wealthy making his winehouse and whorehouse spy network grow to new heights, added to his now utter control of the state finances and the huge volumes of exact financial info that comes with it hes got his own way to play the game. Now the problem is the state for all roberts faults is stable and at court he has both cersis spy network ( probably unsubtle but backed with lannister gold she doesnt need to be) and of course the constant spy shadow war with varys , the eunuch is dangerous and between the 2 of them hes pretty much stuck in place...its a good place but hes advanced so far and knows he can go.further, he just needs the status quo badly shaken up. Jon arryn has to go, the old man is canny and will eventualy work out who is cuckolding him if varys etc doesnt find a way to find him evidence 1st plus his death will bring ned and thus cat to court. Thus we come.to the books start where lf is serving no master but his own ambitions thus can improvise on the spot as he has no allies or master to awnser to! He has his whore,wine and financial accountant spy network as well as lysa arryns infatuation to work with and his wits to advance with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: Considering he instigated The War of the Five Kings by manipulating to events to his advantage, I would say yes, but what do you think? He is a villain, but he is not the main villain. Nobody is. There were plenty of people involved in bringing about the War of the Five Kings, some more villainous than others. His actions certainly qualify as harmful for the most part, so I will be happy when he is gone. But he is no way responsible for everything bad that has happened. Or even necessarily most of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 He has not done much, as far as we know. Except abuse little girls, which I'd rather not think about too much. And yes, he did murder Lysa. And Dontos. Other than that, he just putters around saying "tee hee hee" and inviting us to assume he has some kind of overarching plan. Currently, he seems to be positioning himself to profit from food shortages. Which I guess might end up being evil if it ends up contributing to a starvation problem. Maybe some day he will explain his evil plan to us all, and we can all wonder in awe at his evil genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegor_the_Cool Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 A man of humble means, manipulating the arrogant nobles of Westeros into killing each other. Villain? Why he is the closest thing we have to a hero! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 7 hours ago, Maegor Targaryen I said: A man of humble means, manipulating the arrogant nobles of Westeros into killing each other. Villain? Why he is the closest thing we have to a hero! Yes. The very title of this thread is a sickening example of the elitism ingrained in Westerosi society. Peter Baelish is an honest man who got where he is today through hard work. But of course the Nobles don't want to see anyone of lower birth profiting. They would rather those beneath them toil in the mud forever. Baelish is a threat to their systematic feudal oppression which is why they don't like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I’ve always felt that the model for LF’s self-perception (but not so much his behaviour) is Jay Gatsby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Littlefinger is the most human of the villains. His weapons are politics and bribes. His motivations are easy to understand. Bran is the supernatural villain. The human heart is the villain which to varying degrees control behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Bran is the supernatural villain. I would put Euron before Bran. Euron is acting villainous right now. Bran as of now is not a villain and whether he will become one is a matter of debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I mean, depending on how we define it. For example Tyrion is the villain (as defined by GRRM) we see the most. I guess Dany if you think that’s one of the broad strokes the show got right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Hes def one of the most interesting characters for sure Id love a earlier book where we see him arrive and his shadow war begining with varys and then the arrival of cersei etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Does this story need a villain? We could flip back through the posts on this rite right here and get a pretty heavy list of all of the things that the so called heroes of this story have done. I think that one of the points of this tale is that there is always another side to the characters that we see as 'bad guys' and the development of Jamie from cartoonish villain in GOT to whatever he's become by Dance (certainly not cartoonish and as developed and complex as anyone in the series). Perhaps one of my biggest problems with Euron as the big bad is that he's a cartoon character, he's not complicated and honestly Baelish fits more into this mold than any other. We get a bit of sympathy for him when we read of his youth at Riverrun, but really he's just ambitious for it's own pitiful sake. So to get to your question, I hope that the conflict stays with greyer characters with actual justifiable motivations behind their conflicts and if Baelish and Euron were to be the biggest bads that the story ever puts 'on screen' then that would be alright with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Petyr was revealed to be the Big Bad in the War of the Five Kings. Illyrio is shaping up to be the Big Bad in the Second Dance of the Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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