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Do you think GRRM will add Aegon’s Prophecy to the Books?


Maegor_the_Cool

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That they didn't give the Wall much thought also makes sense. They had dragons, after all, and they were multiplying. A united continent under the leadership of a dozen or more dragonriders should be able to deal with any supernatural threat. Or at least that could have been their opinion. The Watch also hadn't declined as much as it has during the main series. At that point, the Watch as it was would have quickly realized that the Others had returned and would have had ample time to inform the Targaryen king of what was going on. And then they could have reacted very quickly.

Alysanne's surprise that her dragon couldn't cross the Wall 50 years later suggests more than 'they didn't give it much thought', don't you think? They completely disregarded it, not even trying to take a dragon over top of it just to appreciate it for it's own sake and see it's magnificence from above. I find it a real challenge to accept that such a pivotal future battlefield wouldn't spark just a little bit of interest from the guy who conquered a continent to secure it. He could have gone and surveyed it himself on dragonback at any time but his actions and priorities suggest that it was irrelevant to him.

Also prior to Aegon the Wall was supplied with men from 8 different kingdoms and now for the first time there's only one authority sending folk to the Wall and he is the first person in a disputed number of thousands of years who actually believes in the value of the institution beyond convenient exile. He did nothing. I just can't believe that he conquered Westeros for the purpose of fighting the Others and paid no mind to those who had already had the charge for the last however long. No visits to the libraries at castles at the Wall? His sobriquet should be Aegon the Half Assed.

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33 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Alysanne's surprise that her dragon couldn't cross the Wall 50 years later suggests more than 'they didn't give it much thought', don't you think? They completely disregarded it, not even trying to take a dragon over top of it just to appreciate it for it's own sake and see it's magnificence from above. I find it a real challenge to accept that such a pivotal future battlefield wouldn't spark just a little bit of interest from the guy who conquered a continent to secure it. He could have gone and surveyed it himself on dragonback at any time but his actions and priorities suggest that it was irrelevant to him.

Actually, it suggests the opposite. Alysanne is pretty concerned about this thing. Gyldayn doesn't follow up on this whole thing, so we don't know what they thought about all that. But from ASoS we actually do know that Jaehaerys I actually did visit the Wall. And we can also assume that Aegon the Conqueror may have visited it - in light of how short the account of his reign is we cannot say we know where he did and didn't travel.

Also, of course, Jaehaerys I may actually be the king who sent more men to the Wall than any monarch before and after him. After all, he sent all the Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows to the Wall who laid down their arms.

33 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Also prior to Aegon the Wall was supplied with men from 8 different kingdoms and now for the first time there's only one authority sending folk to the Wall and he is the first person in a disputed number of thousands of years who actually believes in the value of the institution beyond convenient exile. He did nothing. I just can't believe that he conquered Westeros for the purpose of fighting the Others and paid no mind to those who had already had the charge for the last however long. No visits to the libraries at castles at the Wall? His sobriquet should be Aegon the Half Assed.

That Aegon may have believed in a danger from beyond the Wall isn't the same as him believing in the NW. The NW doesn't have dragons, they are not Targaryens nor dragonlords but just people manning an ice wall.

It is not that hard to understand that a united continent of Westeros lead by a dragonriding family would have a much better chance at dealing with any threat from beyond the Wall than the NW and fractured Seven Kingdoms.

The NW was a great border garrison for all the Seven Kingdoms ... but fractured they would be lost if/when the Others breach or circumvent the Wall. I mean, you must realize that the Iron Throne could marshal hundreds of thousands of men to fight the Others during peace times.

We also cannot really pretend to know what the Targaryens who grew up in Westeros, etc. believed/knew about the Others. Just as we don't know, say, what Rickard and Brandon knew about stuff like that - but failed to tell Ned.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That Aegon may have believed in a danger from beyond the Wall isn't the same as him believing in the NW. The NW doesn't have dragons, they are not Targaryens nor dragonlords but just people manning an ice wall.

It is not that hard to understand that a united continent of Westeros lead by a dragonriding family would have a much better chance at dealing with any threat from beyond the Wall than the NW and fractured Seven Kingdoms.

The NW was a great border garrison for all the Seven Kingdoms ... but fractured they would be lost if/when the Others breach or circumvent the Wall. I mean, you must realize that the Iron Throne could marshal hundreds of thousands of men to fight the Others during peace times.

We also cannot really pretend to know what the Targaryens who grew up in Westeros, etc. believed/knew about the Others. Just as we don't know, say, what Rickard and Brandon knew about stuff like that - but failed to tell Ned.

These are all good points and since we're deep into speculation about what people did or didn't know it's difficult to argue them, but there's no smoking gun here. We don't even have any indication that Aegon visited the Wall himself, we just have the assumption that he must have. Nothing you say here suggests to me why Aegon would conquer the 7 kingdoms to save the world from a threat in the north and then trust that the north was fine the way it was without giving it a look. Sure, we don't know what conversations were had between Aegon and Torren but just consider the body count incurred, the Field of Fire, Harrenhall, Rhaenys' death. I would think that the time would have come when Aegon went to see the why of it and the only evidence that we have that he did is a lack of concrete evidence that he didn't. 

I dunno, maybe it's being held for some great reveal in Winds or Dream (Maybe that's the referenced Dream?) but if we get an Aegon's Dream confirmation in the text it's going to have to come with an explanation of why Aegon started the thing, backed off and ignored it and then it became important again during the reign of V1, but it didn't seem to factor in during the succession that put him on the throne.

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I'm glad this topic is allowed as I want to make similar ones based on info from HOTD.

As for this topic I mean really it's already there.

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Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said.

And what's going to happen is pretty obvious. Dany will learn of the prophecy, and the prophecy will pretty clearly say (as Viserys said in the show) it has to be a true blooded Targaryen leading the realm, and she'll doubt king Faegon's legitimacy and so another motivation to war with him and begin the Dance of Dragons II.

Then she'll learn of Jon and think it's got to be him ruling or his child through her.

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4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'll accept that Aegon was a dreamer and had motivations that we haven't been clued in on. Can't accept any more than that though. 

What the hell was Visenya doing with Maegor if she was clued in on the family business? House Targ should have been building not infighting and that was the first generation after the conquest while one of Aegon's closest conspirators was still alive. What was she doing to patch things up and forward her late husband's work? Usurping his rightful heir and putting her son (not even going to bother with the whole 'was Aegon infertile anyway?' question) in his place.

So if this information existed, I have troubles accepting that it was important to Visenya. Did she tell Maegor at all? Who told Jaeherys? Someone must have if he passed it to Viserys. Why wasn't this information considered in the Old King's succession? That should have been J's hammer in the argument, but clearly Alysanne didn't accept it. 

Depends on the dragon(s) that Aegon saw in the dream. If he saw a black--red one (most likely as that is the sigil's colors) and the ice army didn't come within Aegon's lifetime, then Visenya may have become convinced her son, rider of Balerion, should sit the throne. And for a long while Maegor was Aenys' Hand.

It seems reasonable that if Aegon had a dragon dream about the threat of the Others and how Targs would be involved in it, that it would show Drogon (black-red), Rhaegal (green) and Viserion (white/cream). Maybe he even saw Viserion wighted - giving a silver frosted effect, but did not know it was wighted... only a glimpse of a "silver dragon". Or he may have "heard" the name "Silver" (Dany's horse). Aemon's dragon dream has sound of creaking in the snow.

  • Aegon I - Black-red Balerion // Visenya on green Vhagar // Rhaenys on silver Meraxes (died in Dorne)
  • Aenys I on quicksilver // Maegor on Balerion (but was exiled by his brother) // Visenya on Vhagar
  • Aenys' son Aegon inherits Quicksilver (holed up on his tour) // Maegor still on Balerion (claims throne) // and Visenya on Vhagar

It is possible that because of the exile, Maegor and Visenya decided it was necessary for Maegor to be king so he couldn't be exiled anymore. Aenys' daughter Alysanne was born in the year before Aegon I's death and her older sister Rhaena put a dragon egg in Alysanne's cribb which hatched into Silverwing. Visenya keeps Jaehaerys and Alysanne as wards with her on Dragonstone. So, Visenya seemed to be after this combo

  • Maegor I on Balerion // Visenya on Vhagar // Alysanne on SIlverwing as Visenya's ward and Jaehaerys on the bronze Vermithor

It's as if Visenya was unsure which of the two it could be. Did someone else have another dragon dream featuring Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion? Maegor perhaps? But this time with an unwighted Viserion. A frost wighted Viserion may appear silver, but he is actually cream with bronze.

Meanwhile Maegor himself demanded for Rhaena to be his wife, who rode the blue Dreamfyre. He also makes Aerea his heir (before Aerea and Rhaella swap places after Maegor's death). And he starts the construction of the Dragonpit to keep the dragons nearby at hand.

Alysanne did end up visiting the Wall and tested flying across the wall on Silverwing. Silverwing did not fly across and Alysanne was disturbed. What did Visenya tell Alysanne?

Visenya dies and Vhagar is left  without a rider, until Jaehaerys' son Baelon claimed Vhagar. In the meantime Jaehaerys became king after Maegor, and he rode the bronze Vermithor. Aerea (after the swap) claims Balerion

  • Jaehaerys I on Vermithor // Good Queen Alysanne on Silverwing // Aerea on Balerion and flies off and when she returns she dies a horrible death

Jaehaerys dissuades anyone from claiming Balerion

  • Jaehaerys I on Vermithor // Good Queen Alysanne on Silverwing // their son Baelon on Vhagar // their son Ameon on red Caraxes

A case can be made that Visenya and Maegor initially believed that Aenys on Quicksilver would make for the 3rd head. But after the exile and Aenys' death, and new dragon dream info, both Visenya and Maegor believed Quicksilver wasn't the third dragon and so his rider wasn't supposed to be the third head. Instead both Maegor and Visenya keep 3 potential dragons close with their dragonriders: blue Dreamfyre, Silverwing and bronze Vermithor. He also keeps Aerea close. Aerea and Rhaena were twins and if Maegor had info or a dragon dream of the later Aerea claiming Balerion, he may have believed it necessary to keep her close.

Alysanne and Jaehaerys may have known something via Visenya, but not the complete picture. Or alternatively they may have started to doubt whatever they overheard about the dragon requiring 3 heads and the coloring it's supposed to be.

And then Viserys claims Balerion, but the beast dies not long after. After that the colors veer way more off and are divided across the sides during the Dance.

Of course the search for "which" silver was the right one never could be successful. It was never Balerion or Vhagar or any of the silver or bronze dragons I mentioned. It was always Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion.

 

 

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1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

I'm glad this topic is allowed as I want to make similar ones based on info from HOTD.

As for this topic I mean really it's already there.

And what's going to happen is pretty obvious. Dany will learn of the prophecy, and the prophecy will pretty clearly say (as Viserys said in the show) it has to be a true blooded Targaryen leading the realm, and she'll doubt king Faegon's legitimacy and so another motivation to war with him and begin the Dance of Dragons II.

Then she'll learn of Jon and think it's got to be him ruling or his child through her.

Whether Aegon had a dragon dream about a new LN has been speculated on since at least F&B was published

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20 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

These are all good points and since we're deep into speculation about what people did or didn't know it's difficult to argue them, but there's no smoking gun here. We don't even have any indication that Aegon visited the Wall himself, we just have the assumption that he must have.

I'm not saying he must have. I'm just saying chances are pretty good that he did. Even if he gave a rat's ass about the Others ... that fucking wall is one the largest structures on the continent he conquered. The man was so obsessed with this Westeros that he created that Painted Table. I'd expect he would have visited the Wall just to see it - like Tyrion later did and Dunk and Egg plan to.

Also, we do know that multiple Targaryen kings visited the Wall, the last one over a hundred years ago (the best candidate for that one would be Daeron II), so it wouldn't be odd if Aegon I also went up there. Not only did he make many royal progresses, but he also had a dragon and could use it fly up to the Wall from Winterfell or Barrowton or even White Harbor (places we know Aegon visited).

20 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Nothing you say here suggests to me why Aegon would conquer the 7 kingdoms to save the world from a threat in the north and then trust that the north was fine the way it was without giving it a look.

He certainly gave it a look. But Aegon wouldn't have conquered Westeros for the sake of the North, but for the sake of the entire continent and/or even humanity in general. After all, if the ice demons are not stopped they would inevitably spread to Essos and the rest of the world once they brought their eternal winter to Westeros.

As I said - the biggest hope of everybody there is that the continent is united against the Others. That's also, presumably, why Aegon bothered with Dorne. The place is worthless in and of itself but they could be an asset during the War for the Dawn.

20 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Sure, we don't know what conversations were had between Aegon and Torren but just consider the body count incurred, the Field of Fire, Harrenhall, Rhaenys' death. I would think that the time would have come when Aegon went to see the why of it and the only evidence that we have that he did is a lack of concrete evidence that he didn't.

Torrhen's submission makes the most sense if it was the result of Aegon sharing knowledge about the true enemy/Others - or if he at least was able to convince Torrhen that the point of his Conquest was to unite the continent against this threat. In any other scenario Torrhen looks a cowardly moron who submitted to a man who hadn't even set foot into his kingdom.

Such knowledge would also help explain why Torrhen and his immediate successors never rebelled against the Iron Throne, never tried to secede again.

Basically, the Targaryen Conquest was not so much a 'conquest' for the Starks but a way to strengthen their position. Sure enough, they had overlords now, but their rule of the North effectively continued as before and now they had the last dragonlords on their side not just in the fight against rebellious or unruly Northern bannermen ... but also in case the Others should return one day. The latter being something that could have still been on the mind of Torrhen and his successors.

As I indicated above, Ned may have been cut off from certain Stark traditions/beliefs because he was not intended to inherit Winterfell ... and because he spent much time in the Vale and his elder brother and father died too soon.

Any Stark seriously believing in the Others not considering how handy a dragonlord might be should they ever come back would be a complete moron.

Insofar as the losses during the Conquest:

There weren't many. Comparatively few people died on the Field of Fire or at Harrenhal. The First Dornish War is another thing, but even that is largely bloodless on Aegon's side until the death of Rhaenys. Then he takes off the gloves because things have become really personal. But even that doesn't last all that long and in the end Aegon accepts a rather shameful peace for his side.

This is also something odd in context. If Aegon was just a normal conqueror, somebody whose only goal was to be remembered as the greatest conqueror of the western hemisphere, etc. then there is just no chance he would have allowed the Dornish to get away with what they pulled. He had the upper hand and his resources were no way spent when he accepted the peace. A man whose top priority was more to keep this Westeros united and prepared for a larger threat might act in this way - but not a man who is only about his own glory.

Also - and I'm not sure this is intended - Aegon as a guy who views himself and his dynasty merely charged with preparing Westeros for the Others and seeing the final war through also helps explain the rather strange political framework of the united Westeros.

A real conqueror would have reshaped the political landscape as he saw fit. He may have implemented his changes slowly, perhaps, but he would have brought in his own people, replacing the old elites with men who owed everything to him. Hell, there should even have been a migration from old Valyrian territory (Free Cities, etc.) to Westeros now that a Valyrian house ruled Westeros.

Instead, it is evident that Aegon always wanted to work with the old elites, not against them. He left those in place who survived and bent the knee, he and his family took over all the Westerosi customs and traditions they hadn't already taken up on Dragonstone. The only Valyrian things they kept were the incest and the dragons (and the former seems to have been necessary - in their minds, at least - to keep the latter).

20 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I dunno, maybe it's being held for some great reveal in Winds or Dream (Maybe that's the referenced Dream?) but if we get an Aegon's Dream confirmation in the text it's going to have to come with an explanation of why Aegon started the thing, backed off and ignored it and then it became important again during the reign of V1, but it didn't seem to factor in during the succession that put him on the throne.

I'm not sure this whole thing will be particularly important as a plot point. Rather it will help explain why the prophecies and dreams in question were believed, passed down, and as important in the decision-making process of the more recent Targaryens (and other people) as they happen to be.

George would be under no obligation to explain why the hell Aegon's secret knowledge/beliefs apparently do not fit with his policies ... when we don't really know all that much about his policies or his reign.

But in context you should keep in mind that dragons or not, the Targaryens would look pretty mad in general if they ever openly declared the entire point of their conquest and reign was to fight a bunch of ice demons the Westerosi themselves no longer believed in. William the Conqueror would also look like a moron if he publicly declared he felt he had to conquer England to defend the English people from the evil lurking behind Hadrian's Wall.

And, of course, they would also look like fools if they really spend a lot of their resources on manning and reinforcing the Wall when pretty much nobody actually believed that there was a real supernatural danger up there. Who would cheer Aegon or Aenys or Maegor or Jaehaerys if they wasted money on the NW and the Wall? Not all that many people, one imagines.

And as I've said - in the peaceful era of the dragon reign (and even during the united Westeros after the Dance) - the simple fact that the Seven Kingdoms were united and under the rule of one king/family would have allowed them to react much more efficiently if the Others had made a move then.

Hell, it is quite obvious in AGoT that the Seven Kingdoms could have made a fine last stand against the Others under Robert - and the North under Ned/Robb had both remained at Winterfell. I don't think they could have won in the end, but they could have made the invasion of the Others that much harder. The state the continent is now in pretty much all hope is lost, of course.

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On 1/25/2023 at 1:48 PM, Lord Varys said:

Guys, if you take this thing seriously then all dreams that Aegon and his sister-wives were 'the three heads of the dragon' (and their respective dragons the three dragons that might also be part of the prophecy) would have died with Rhaenys and Meraxes in Dorne.

With prophesies, at least judging by certain real-world precedents, there is always a tendency to suspect that the prophesies may refer, or to believe they in fact do refer, to the current generation.

Nothing prevents the idea that TPTWP was once thought to be Aegon or that the 3-head dragon of prophesy was thought to be Aegon and his sisters.  If this interpretation was proven false, the people would just move on, and look forward to a future fulfillment of the prophesy.

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