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Why are People in the Series Obsessed with Convoluted, Heavily Luck-Dependant Plans?


Craving Peaches

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's so silly. He knows about Littlefinger's dodgy accounting, he knows that all the people in positions of power with regards to money are his men, he thinks to himself that he doesn't trust LF and then...does nothing.

Above all, he knows that Littlefinger framed him for the attempt on Bran's life.

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3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's so silly. He knows about Littlefinger's dodgy accounting, he knows that all the people in positions of power with regards to money are his men, he thinks to himself that he doesn't trust LF and then...does nothing.

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Above all, he knows that Littlefinger framed him for the attempt on Bran's life.

Yes and no. Of course, from the perspective of a schemer like Littlefinger himself - a man who is in the game for himself and himself alone - it might have been a very crucial priority to deal with Tyrion. And Littlefinger himself intended to do that after Tyrion played him with the fake Harrenhal offer - as the later attempt of Ser Mandon Moore shows (if you go by him acting on Littlefinger's behalf which is most likely).

But Tyrion is not in the game only for himself. He tries to defend the interests of his house, his father, and, yes, even Cersei's and those of King Joffrey whose crown Tyrion tries to defend. During most of Tyrion's short stint as Acting Hand enemies gather around KL. They have to defend the city against Renly and Stannis and, perhaps, even Robb Stark.

Sacking the minister of finance in such a delicate situation would be lunacy. The Crown is heavily in debt, the coin with which Tyrion pays the City Watch, hires additional men, pays for the gigantic chain, etc. is provided by Littlefinger and Littlefinger's people running the treasury. Hell, if Littlefinger were gone and Littlefinger wanted it so it might be that the whole Iron Bank situation may have blown in the Iron Throne's face even sooner.

Certainly - the Lannisters are rich as hell, but Tyrion doesn't have coffers full of ready coin available, and while the capital is effectively cut off from the West due to the civil war it wouldn't be easy to keep a city loyal that doesn't exactly love the Lannisters. Even if Tyrion and Cersei could keep the men quiet and on their side by promises of later pay - it would be a huge gamble to risk unrest and riots just to sack Littlefinger.

After all, while the man might be kind of a snake - Tyrion has little real reason to fear him considering he has no powerbase of his own. The time to sack him would come once the war is over, when there is no longer need of him ... or at the earliest when the immediate threat to KL is averted. Then Tyrion could turn his mind to settling the finances of the Crown, working his way through Littlefinger's shady deals, etc. But doing that in the middle of a war would simply not be possible. We see how subtle and complex Littlefinger's dealings are - Tyrion later is Master of Coin for a short time, yet he cannot entangle the mess. Granted, he is also recovering from a most grievous wound, is depressed because his family shits on him and cut him out of the inner circle, is obsessed with his whore and overthrown by his sudden marriage, etc. ... but we can imagine that even a Tyrion in his high spirits dealing with the treasury in the aftermath of the Blackwater would have faced troubles.

And in Littlefinger's defense Tyrion has to consider that Littlefinger played a very crucial role during the succession struggle after Robert's death. He helped Cersei to defeat the Starks and crown King Joffrey. Him telling a lie about who owned a certain dagger is definitely not high treason. It could have been a simple mistake or error on Littlefinger's part. As Littlefinger himself well knows - Cat may have told Tyrion something about the dagger, but she could have lied in turn. Catelyn Stark's word as relayed by Tyrion is never going to be viewed as 'the truth' in KL.

And one has to keep in mind that Littlefinger didn't say Tyrion arranged the attempt on Bran, etc. He just claimed he owned the dagger. Had Littlefinger said the truth - that the dagger belonged to King Robert - the conclusion that Robert tried to have Bran murdered would only be one of many options. After all, as it happens, the dagger could have passed to somebody else who then decided to hand it to the would-be assassin. As it happened.

If Tyrion or Cersei or Tywin or even Robert had confronted Littlefinger about the dagger - he would have replied that he told this lie to defend the king who was the actual owner of the dagger as far as he knew. That alone should have gotten him off the hook.

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14 hours ago, Jekse said:

Indeed. This is a major plot-hole. 

I always wondered why he didn't given LF's low birth and status but I feel we have to allow the author to set the pieces on the board how he wants and that this is relatively minor.  LF's strength throughout the early book is that he makes himself useful to those with real power and is too insignificant to be seen as a threat and too useful to be discarded without a good reason: sort of like Varys.

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You could say a lot is luck based, however I do believe when it comes to Littlefinger and Varys, they not only have many webs spinning at the same time (sometimes they work out, sometimes they don’t) but they’re also both very quick-witted and quick to act and turn their negative and unpredicted situations into a gain or positive for them

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He did imprison Pycelle for being Cersei's informant, though.

That is true. But I never said Tyrion was not also in the game for himself. He was, but it wasn't his only priority. Pycelle is sacked in the wake of the test Tyrion put before him, Littlefinger, and Varys. It was a test about personal loyality/oebedience. The Hand telling them something they wished not shared with anybody else for the time being. And he didn't pass. It is both a sign to the subtler snakes that they won't get away if treason if they are caught ... and a sign to Cersei that Tyrion will not be pushed aside as easily as Ned Stark.

However, the entire test didn't include anything that was against Cersei's interest. Tyrion didn't consult Cersei before he approached Doran Martell, but he did gain her permission to the match afterwards because they both knew it was in their interest to keep Dorne in the fold and stop them for openly turning against King Joffrey.

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29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is true. But I never said Tyrion was not also in the game for himself. He was, but it wasn't his only priority.

Still, given that Littlefinger screwed him over that badly the first time, who is to say that he wouldn't do it again? Plus, Tywin gave Tyrion permission to get rid of whoever he wanted.

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Still, given that Littlefinger screwed him over that badly the first time, who is to say that he wouldn't do it again? Plus, Tywin gave Tyrion permission to get rid of whoever he wanted.

He isn't sure about that. And, yes, he does away with Janos Slynt and Pycelle because Tywin effectively gave him permission to do this kind of thing.

As I said, Littlefinger as an asset is much more important/valuable while Tyrion is Acting Hand than the prospect of sacking him and having to deal with the treasury all by themselves - because finding a competent replacement in the middle of a siege-like situation would be almost impossible.

While Littlefinger may not have been loyal to Tyrion back when he lied about the dagger ... this doesn't mean he won't be loyal or useful while he is Acting Hand. As such Tyrion speaks with the King's Voice, after all. And Littlefinger also proved his loyalty to Joffrey/Cersei/the Lannisters when he helped them against Ned. When Tyrion arrives at court he was more useful to King Joffrey than Tyrion up to that point. Tyrion cannot really do away with him because they are dependent on him ... in a way they are not dependent on Janos Slynt or Pycelle. And the former Tyrion mainly does away with because he murdered Barra and her mother and because he showed poor judgment when Joffrey commanded the execution of Ned Stark when it was clear that this wasn't the wish of the Queen Regent.

And he is effectively the guy who saves Joffrey's crown by arranging the Tyrell alliance. Tyrion has the idea, but Littlefinger sees it through. And he also turns the Blackwater into such a decisive Lannister-Tyrell victory by coming up with the idea that Garlan wear Renly's armor on the field.

I mean, yes, if Tyrion had any notion how dangerous and duplicitous Littlefinger actually is he would have done away with him immediately. But he doesn't. He has no clue how dangerous the guy truly is. But Littlefinger quickly realizes that Tyrion doesn't trust him, likely never will trust him, meaning he won't be able to use his charms on him ... so he has to go because he could become a serious problem later on.

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Because the Game of Thrones is a big gamble.  Like cards, you can only play the hand you are dealt.  Take Doran for an example.  His cards are Oberyn, Arianne, and Quentyn.  Good hand or bad hand they are what he had.  The more you invest and the more you risk, the greater the potential rewards.  Sansa risks very little thus she is not getting a great reward. 

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tyrion is not in the game only for himself. He tries to defend the interests of his house, his father, and, yes, even Cersei's and those of King Joffrey whose crown Tyrion tries to defend.

Also, if that’s the case, why does he spend considerable energy on getting rid of Janos Slynt and his cronies when Slynt was instrumental to the Lannisters remaining in power after Robert’s death.

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12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, if that’s the case, why does he spend considerable energy on getting rid of Janos Slynt and his cronies when Slynt was instrumental to the Lannisters remaining in power after Robert’s death.

Because Slynt murdered Barra and her mother, and Tyrion came to KL with the intention of 'doing justice'. That notion doesn't survive very long, though, as his later actions show.

That said - Slynt also had to go because he effectively executed Ned against Cersei's wishes and because he was unworthy of Harrenhal as per Tywin's judgment. Also, of course, because a City Watch commander who would turn against the Hand the way Slynt did isn't the kind of man you want in that position - even if his betrayal there was to your advantage.

But Tyrion is very aware that his move against Slynt is at best replacing one of Littlefinger's men with one of Varys' (which Jacelyn Bywater may indeed have been). But since he feels he cannot move against Littlefinger that's the best he can do at that moment. And by way of installing Bywater as commander he clearly weakened Littlefinger's hold over the City Watch.

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Littlefinger’s lie about the dagger being Tyrion’s is really silly in hindsight. It only makes sense from the POV of driving the plot forward by raising the tension when Catelyn runs into Tyrion at the inn (which LF obviously couldn’t have known would happen). It’s a risky lie - many people could have exposed it and he has no plausible defense for it - and a completely unnecessary one. He could have accomplished the goal of fostering suspicion and enmity between the Starks and Lannisters by just telling the truth - that it was Robert’s dagger but the Lannisters could have easily gotten their hands on it. There’s zero reason to specifically implicate Tyrion unless he’s a greenseer who can see the future (inb4 this becomes a new tinfoil theory)

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20 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Still, given that Littlefinger screwed him over that badly the first time, who is to say that he wouldn't do it again? Plus, Tywin gave Tyrion permission to get rid of whoever he wanted.

He did

But the knife wasnt such a big deal LF can simply say he misremembered whom he lost that particular bet with eso given how frequent tournerys are under robert.

Besides lf does this as it adds to anti lannialster suspicion  built up from lysas letter and the fortunate(for lf that is)  bran falling out a window when the lannisters arrive!

Finaly  i dont think its as big a risk as we think. He can say he mixed one bet up with another and say (correctly ) that he told the starks theyd need more evidence anyway  and later to toss the knife away snd forget about it althogether!

Like varys i strongly suspect giving an order to gave LF  killed and it actualy happening are 2 very different things !  Unless.you order it on the spot he may have ways and means.

We know varys has his littlebirds, his knowlesge of all secret routes in and under KL allowing him to vist anyone woth a crossbow  and may have copies of all prison keys from his cover of being a jailer!

and LF  may a have similar set up  if n

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2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

But the knife wasn't such a big deal LF can simply say he misremembered whom he lost that particular bet with eso given how frequent tournerys are under Robert.

Tyrion had to sit in the sky cells and barely escaped the Eyrie with his life because of it, so it is a big deal. It's the centrepiece of the entire first book.

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Tyrion had to sit in the sky cells and barely escaped the Eyrie with his life because of it, so it is a big deal. It's the centrepiece of the entire first book.

He did that because cat captured him, it was more lysas letter (lfs fault as well but tyrion doesnt know that) as well as brans out of character falling.

Now  if tyrion brings it up and LF says he simply misremembers he has every right to get angry " you misremembering nearly cost me my life!" Etc BUT he did say in front of varys etc that theyd need more evidence to tie it tyrion and/or  the lannsiters and act ...its cat who decides to act regardless on  'seemingly'  paper thin evidence and a hunch! 

The other factor is simply we dont know what assets and plans lf has if tyrion decides then and there to toss him in jail ...just like varys (as we see later) he may be harder to have killed than it seems

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As far as people like Varys are concerned, they have one or two specific, quantifiable goals that they are aiming for. The end justifies the means with these people, as the more successful planners are able to keep their endgame goal in sight while being able to adapt to a wide variety of changing circumstances. The key to them being able to do that is secrecy.

It's the tactics versus strategy argument at work. Strategy is the long-term goal and its accompanying objectives and motivations. Tactics are the style, the tools and the stepwise processes one uses in order to implement the strategy and achieve their goals.

People like Doran Martell are very similar to people like Varys; the difference is that people like Varys are active while people like Doran Martell are passive nearly to the point of indolence. Varys is actively working towards his goals whereas Doran is more of an opportunist. Though Varys works silently, subtly and secretly, he has skin in the game whereas Doran Martell doesn't. In a way, Doran Martell is noble for not wanting to endanger his lands and people but, in another way, he is also extremely lazy and cheap. Ordinarily, he'd just be lazy and cheap, but those traits combined with political ambition and the desire for vengeance make him very entitled. He puts in the least amount of effort and has the expectation of getting the absolute most and his elder two children have embraced this idea too. The only difference between them is that Arianne got a chance to learn from her mistake and make changes whereas Quentyn refused that same second chance. I don't think it will matter much in the end now that Arianne is hurtling towards another set of issues but that's another topic. Most courtiers would fall into this category.

People like Littlefinger are lucky because all it would have taken for his house of cards to fall apart is for someone to say something to someone else who knew something else at the right (or, alternatively, wrong) time. But Stannis Baratheon's jealousy of Ned Stark and his relationship with Robert, Ned Stark's distrust of both Robert and the Lannisters, Jon Arryn's desperate need for an heir and the Lannisters' inability to get along has absolutely nothing to do with Littlefinger. People like Littlefinger don't really make plans, they either just want what they want, or they enjoy chaos. So, they exploit people and situations in order to get the chaos or whatever else it is that they desire. And if you have to summarize Littlefinger up with one word, it would be exploitation. It doesn't matter what it is: you name it and Littlefinger has either already exploited it, is currently trying to exploit it or simply hasn't gotten around to it yet. Littlefinger is also lucky in that he is a mouse, and all the big cats are either away or too busy fighting and competing against each other.

The entire Lannister family is extremely lucky at the beginning of the series. Although they are dangerously arrogant, disloyal and unpopular, they show themselves to be very competent though not without their fair share of mistakes. However, their adversaries have to deal with unique logistical challenges on top of a slew of unexpected events completely outside of anyone's control. Not only do none of these inconveniences or unpleasant surprises negatively impact the Lannisters, neither the Lannisters nor their allies never really suffer from the consequences of their mistakes. Their enemies, on the other hand, suffer grievously for their mistakes, sometimes disproportionately so. Although they are unpopular, the Lannisters as a collective (and people like them) have great stamina. I'm sure that their wealth helps but the Lannisters simply are able to outlast their enemies. But the luck of the Lannisters is about to run out as they now have to deal with consequences and all these random unexpected events are starting to negatively impact them.

Even though @Craving Peaches mentioned Varys, Doran and the Lannisters, I feel like that this thread is really about Littlefinger.

Littlefinger is an agent of chaos. He doesn't care about collateral damage or expenses like Doran does, he doesn't have assets to protect or a brand to advance like the Lannisters, and he doesn't have any sort of goal or objectives like Varys. He just likes being able to laugh and fiddle while Rome burns.

But you're right. The fact that Littlefinger has been able to get this far without too much trouble is unbelievable. Tyrion's failure to even attempt to deal with Littlefinger, Tywin's bizarre decision to let him off the hook for his misdeeds (and to allow him to marry Lysa Arryn?!) and Cersei's uncharacteristically blanket trust towards him are plot holes. Small plot holes but plot holes they are.

His alliance with the Lannisters and the Freys make him look very bad to the Valemen. But they just still tolerate him?

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47 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

As far as people like Varys are concerned, they have one or two specific, quantifiable goals that they are aiming for. The end justifies the means with these people, as the more successful planners are able to keep their endgame goal in sight while being able to adapt to a wide variety of changing circumstances. The key to them being able to do that is secrecy.

It's the tactics versus strategy argument at work. Strategy is the long-term goal and its accompanying objectives and motivations. Tactics are the style, the tools and the stepwise processes one uses in order to implement the strategy and achieve their goals.

People like Doran Martell are very similar to people like Varys; the difference is that people like Varys are active while people like Doran Martell are passive nearly to the point of indolence. Varys is actively working towards his goals whereas Doran is more of an opportunist. Though Varys works silently, subtly and secretly, he has skin in the game whereas Doran Martell doesn't. In a way, Doran Martell is noble for not wanting to endanger his lands and people but, in another way, he is also extremely lazy and cheap. Ordinarily, he'd just be lazy and cheap, but those traits combined with political ambition and the desire for vengeance make him very entitled. He puts in the least amount of effort and has the expectation of getting the absolute most and his elder two children have embraced this idea too. The only difference between them is that Arianne got a chance to learn from her mistake and make changes whereas Quentyn refused that same second chance. I don't think it will matter much in the end now that Arianne is hurtling towards another set of issues but that's another topic. Most courtiers would fall into this category.

People like Littlefinger are lucky because all it would have taken for his house of cards to fall apart is for someone to say something to someone else who knew something else at the right (or, alternatively, wrong) time. But Stannis Baratheon's jealousy of Ned Stark and his relationship with Robert, Ned Stark's distrust of both Robert and the Lannisters, Jon Arryn's desperate need for an heir and the Lannisters' inability to get along has absolutely nothing to do with Littlefinger. People like Littlefinger don't really make plans, they either just want what they want, or they enjoy chaos. So, they exploit people and situations in order to get the chaos or whatever else it is that they desire. And if you have to summarize Littlefinger up with one word, it would be exploitation. It doesn't matter what it is: you name it and Littlefinger has either already exploited it, is currently trying to exploit it or simply hasn't gotten around to it yet. Littlefinger is also lucky in that he is a mouse, and all the big cats are either away or too busy fighting and competing against each other.

The entire Lannister family is extremely lucky at the beginning of the series. Although they are dangerously arrogant, disloyal and unpopular, they show themselves to be very competent though not without their fair share of mistakes. However, their adversaries have to deal with unique logistical challenges on top of a slew of unexpected events completely outside of anyone's control. Not only do none of these inconveniences or unpleasant surprises negatively impact the Lannisters, neither the Lannisters nor their allies never really suffer from the consequences of their mistakes. Their enemies, on the other hand, suffer grievously for their mistakes, sometimes disproportionately so. Although they are unpopular, the Lannisters as a collective (and people like them) have great stamina. I'm sure that their wealth helps but the Lannisters simply are able to outlast their enemies. But the luck of the Lannisters is about to run out as they now have to deal with consequences and all these random unexpected events are starting to negatively impact them.

Even though @Craving Peaches mentioned Varys, Doran and the Lannisters, I feel like that this thread is really about Littlefinger.

Littlefinger is an agent of chaos. He doesn't care about collateral damage or expenses like Doran does, he doesn't have assets to protect or a brand to advance like the Lannisters, and he doesn't have any sort of goal or objectives like Varys. He just likes being able to laugh and fiddle while Rome burns.

But you're right. The fact that Littlefinger has been able to get this far without too much trouble is unbelievable. Tyrion's failure to even attempt to deal with Littlefinger, Tywin's bizarre decision to let him off the hook for his misdeeds (and to allow him to marry Lysa Arryn?!) and Cersei's uncharacteristically blanket trust towards him are plot holes. Small plot holes but plot holes they are.

His alliance with the Lannisters and the Freys make him look very bad to the Valemen. But they just still tolerate him?

Id agree due to his low status he needs to upset the normal order to advance ,hes not doing it for his own amusement ,he wasnt dealt a fair hand at birth so no need to play fair with those that were.He has no masters  or allies thus is free to improvise on the fly.

As for littlefingers 'plot armour' 

With tyrion hes already started to create  lannister vs stark friction, with brans fall and assasination attempt he sees a chance to further it with the knife.HOWEVER it must be noted he himself never says the lannisters def did this he just says he lost that knife to tyrion in a bet and (with varys as witness) theyd need more evidence to round out that theory or act on it .....he already knows the starks have a 2nd piece of 'evidence'  in lysas letter thus he can seem.like being a helpful but neutralish rational actor  hes basicaly"ooh lets not jump to conclusions now lets all be reasonable" while secretly stirring the pot!!!!

Now should tyrion confront him he can claim he misremembered who he lost the knife to in one of countless wagers over roberts apparently frequent tourneys and also  accurately claim he advised the starks not to be rash and that it wasnt solid proof of anything yet etc.

Tyrion can rage at him for the trouble it caused but LF can rightly defelct that seemingly it was cat  then lysa who acted so rashly ! Worst case tyrion throws him innjail to be executed but just  like varys we can guess LF has plans should that occur 

That said tyrion may be angry the knife accusation caused him so much trouble but hes survived and now has bigger priorities. His sister, nephew and cousin to tame, a city to prepare for siege , hes falling in love and varys to also shadowbox with.....on top of all that lfs seeming magic with finances is useful so throwing him away mid war for survival could be hard to justify! If tyrion did mean to act on littlefinger based on all this we can assume for a smart man like him  it was on his post siege ' if i survive'  to do list!!! 

Now as for tywin as far as hes aware lf has helped  deliver the tryell alliance which has saved his bacon. He like the entire realm has gotta be wondering what lysa arryn is doing ,  the vales large untouched army with impregnable base has gotta be addressed for stability ...if Lf can deliver all that then the low price of harrenhall is worth it (also a lord  paramount of the riverlands he acts as a counterbalance to the resurgent freys) and if the crazy old bat tosses him out the  famous moondoors  then so be it!

Now as for the vale lords LF survival there is far from remarkable, hes literaly on home soil again!! This is where his financial and spy network began and is likely strongest here. 

We know right off the bat not only does he have lysa (whos batshit craziness means she has to be murdered probably ahead of schedule  but happily theres a conveient stooge hated far more than LF to blame) but also house corbray is his secret ally!

The head of house corbray is littlefingers man and so  is the seemingly firey anti littlefinger lyn corbray (whos also apparently a noteable dueliest if it comes down to that). For  gold and boys he is among the anti LF faction from its start ensuring no plot doesnt reach petyrs ears! This is all amply rewarded later with petyr securing a marriage with a seemingly lavishly wealthy merchant house and a huge dowry to house corbrays possibly previously low funds!!!

Next up the already grasping and proud nestor royce is easily brought under control with a title, flattery and some tapesteries (with the gates his no sudden easy removal of lf is possible anymore)

As for the rest House hunter he knows is secretly at war with itself with brothers soon to kill brothers, house waynwood has staked its hopes on harry the heir whom lf is clearly offering sansa (who waynwood clearly knows is sansa)  as well as his knowledge that the house is in debt! House belmore and templeton surpise all be attenpting the corbray wedding hinting lf has bought them too somehow.

All in all given his protection by lysa going there was never a big gamble, his network and early adulthood there meant he knew all about them. Once the immediate danger passed after lysas clear murder it was only a matter of time before he won or neutralised each of them one by one! Had lysa not been a crackpot needing some fresh air that process wohld have been sloweelr and much safer.

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  • 2 weeks later...

When it comes to the knife, it does seem silly that Catelyn would just take Petyr's word on account of their friendship, didn't she just tell Ned not to trust Robert on their childhood friendship?

As for taking revenge and Doran Martell, one has to be in position to take revenge via intermediate steps, making sure information is still in date. Outside of Doran making the marriage pact between Viserys and Arianne via Oberyn, he makes no moves to protect his investment with the Targaryens. Contrast with the slasher film Valentine (chose it for being seasonal). The main villain Jeremy Melton wants revenge for being framed for sexual assault as a minor. First he has to escape the mental institution. At some point or other he murders the bullies who beat him (confirmed by the director) after Dorothy accused him of assaulting her. He makes contact with his crush Kate through her job cultivates a relationship with her and meets her friends, who helped Dorothy frame him. He keeps tabs on them for some time and starts picking them off one-by-one, starting with the one who lives out of town. However, Jeremy has a more elaborate plan for Dorothy: because she framed him, he'll frame her for his murders. So he murders Dorothy's boyfriend and her housekeeper to make it look like she snapped, stuns her, and puts her in his costume so she'll bump into Kate while disoriented; when Dorothy comes to, he kills her and "unmasks" her.

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