Craving Peaches Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Wiki link for those interested: Heraldry - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) Given how large Westeros is, I am surprised that no disputes over who has what coat of arms have ensued. In England, for example, there have been cases of knights using the same Coat of Arms and having to get it all sorted out via the High Court of Chivalry. From: Scrope v Grosvenor - Wikipedia Quote ...the case resulted from two different knights in King Richard II's service, Richard Scrope, 1st Baron Scrope of Bolton and Sir Robert Grosvenor, discovering they were using the same undifferenced coat of arms, blazoned "Azure, a bend Or". This had previously gone unnoticed because the armigers' families were from different parts of England. As the law of arms by the 14th century prohibited armigers within the same system of arms from holding the same undifferenced arms, Scrope brought suit against Grosvenor in 1386 to determine who would be allowed to continue using the arms in question; the Court of Chivalry found in Scrope's favour in 1389, and King Richard affirmed the decision the following year. Now admittedly, noble families in Westeros have been around for hundreds of years. But it would also be less likely you would be exposed to all these Coats of Arms because of the vast distances you may need to cover to see them all, as it is unlikely every single one would be represented at a tourney. The English dispute above happened because the families were on different sides of the country, in Westeros this problem should be even more pronounced. Now it could be that Westeros has no law on houses not being allowed the same Coat of Arms but I find that unlikely. Also, when you consider this: Quote By the 12th and 13th centuries, the composition of coats of arms consisted of only one charge and two tinctures. However, this simplicity meant there were often times when unrelated families ended up bearing the same designs. Most of the Westerosi sigils are fairly simple, being an animal on a field, or an ordinary on a field. Westeros also does not follow the heraldic rules of tincture, that is, you can have colours on colours and metals on metals. Now, the main feature of a CoA was to distinguish gentlemen on the battlefield. With this in mind, some of the sigil choices are very poor because they would be near impossible to replicate for uniforms and hard to make out on the battlefield. This is a list of sigils I find not fit for purpose: House Lynderly - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) (complex to sew, would not be visible from a distance) House Turnberry - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) (complex to sew, red and green clash horribly, would not be visible from a distance, strawberries don't look good placed over the fur) House Grimm - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) (far too complex to render, colours don't stand out, would not be visible at at a distance) House Wydman - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) (too many small charges at the top, would be hard to render, would not be visible at a distance) House Lonmouth - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) (too many small charges, too complex to render, would not be visible at a distance) There are others I don't think are great, but these are the worst offenders in my view. By way of comparison, these are my favourites: House Baratheon - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) House Corbray - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) House Donniger - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) House Fell - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org) Esteemed members of this forum, I would like to invite you to share your views on this topic. How do you find the state of heraldry in Westeros? Which sigils do you like, which sigils do you dislike, and why? If you could have a sigil, what would it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 I think the heraldry is a bit too simplistic, particularly for the era Martin is depicting; for example Ramsay, as a member of House Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, and Lord of the Hornwood, should have a coat of arms depicting all three. Richard Duke of York, a character who served as inspiration for Ned Stark, had a rather complex coat of arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 26, 2023 Author Share Posted January 26, 2023 1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said: I think the heraldry is a bit too simplistic, particularly for the era Martin is depicting; for example Ramsay, as a member of House Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, and Lord of the Hornwood, should have a coat of arms depicting all three. Richard Duke of York, a character who served as inspiration for Ned Stark, had a rather complex coat of arms. Yes, in the real world, Heraldry also got more and more complicated the longer it existed partly due to the designs being 'used up,' as noble families in Westeros have been around for hundreds of years you would think there's would be more complex, though I would say maybe they want to keep it more simplistic for battlefield purposes, some of the above examples show they don't really care about this so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Yes, in the real world, Heraldry also got more and more complicated the longer it existed partly due to the designs being 'used up,' as noble families in Westeros have been around for hundreds of years you would think there's would be more complex, though I would say maybe they want to keep it more simplistic for battlefield purposes, some of the above examples show they don't really care about this so... If GRRM can write entire pages listing the names of each ship in Stannis' fleet or go into long-winded descriptions of food and clothing (plus the green bile Daenerys is puking up), he can do the same for heraldry. Another example would be House Frey: multiple branches of the family from various wives. How do they tell each other apart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 26, 2023 Author Share Posted January 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Another example would be House Frey: multiple branches of the family from various wives. How do they tell each other apart? We know that some of the Freys quarter their arms with their mother's house. Walder Rivers as well as having inverted colours also adds a red bend so it would be reasonable to assume other Freys may add ordinaries like that to distinguish themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 Maesters might help with new knights not copying existing heraldry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Westeros also does not follow the heraldic rules of tincture, that is, you can have colours on colours and metals on metals. To be fair, these rules were only established fairly late: https://mythicscribes.com/miscellaneous/basics-of-heraldry/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: I think the heraldry is a bit too simplistic, particularly for the era Martin is depicting; for example Ramsay, as a member of House Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, and Lord of the Hornwood, should have a coat of arms depicting all three. Richard Duke of York, a character who served as inspiration for Ned Stark, had a rather complex coat of arms. It’s not as complex as it first seem. We already have quartered arms in ASOIAF both in several houses and among members of some families (especially Freys). This is also a quartered arms, with the arms quartered being also quartered arms(one is differenced). If Brienne Marries say a Costayne, it would be something like this except for the inescutcheon in the Middle. edit: @Craving Peaches here an old thread of mine that didn’t take off. And people “wonder” why “what if” threads etc are so prominent instead of analysis etc threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: And people “wonder” why “what if” threads etc are so prominent instead of analysis etc threads. I made a (in my humble opinion) quite good thread about Stannis and the Law and The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyam the other day, but no one seems interested. It is a bit of a shame that threads with more effort in them like yours get fewer views than silly threads where the premise is instantly debunked by having actually read the books, but less people seem to be interested in good things like law and heraldry... 48 minutes ago, Aldarion said: To be fair, these rules were only established fairly late: https://mythicscribes.com/miscellaneous/basics-of-heraldry/ Thank you for link and info. Will go read soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said: Maesters might help with new knights not copying existing heraldry. That is a good point. I assume the Citadel would have a list of all CoAs in use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.