Aerys II and Rhaegar’s fate was largely self-inflicted and completely deserved

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

All this talk about the Targaryens being racist Nazi eugenicists is stupid.

Straight up.

They are elitist, yes, but no more than the Lannisters, the Tarlys, or any other House with a long, storied lineage.

The thing with the Targaryens is that they can actually back their elitism up with reality (the same applies to the Starks of Winterfell). They are a magical family and so their insistence on marrying and reproducing with close relations makes a lot of sense...especially since the geopolitical ramifications of intermingling with others caused big problems.

The problem with this whole Aerys/Rhaegar situation is that Varys was clearly -- at least to me -- exploiting and encouraging Aerys' mental illness. Between Rhaegar having his head in the clouds, Aerys clinically insane, and a powerless Rhaella, Varys probably was gunning to put his Blackfyre cookie-cutter prince on the Iron Throne this whole time.

Aerys should have never gone to Harrenhal for the tourney. Not only did it interrupt and forestall whatever plans or ideas Rhaegar or whichever nobles had had, but it embarrassed the entire Targaryen dynsaty, caused significant damage to their prestige and it instigated that whole "unmask the mystery knight" business.

And the only reason that Aerys went is because Varys was whispering in his ear.

If Rhaegar had simply taken noblewoman who was already betrothed to another nobleman and made her his second wife, you'd still have a big dispute, but it would have eventually blown over. There would have never been a full-fledged civil war.

Something would have had to have been done about Aerys eventually (meaning war, assassination, imprisonment, etc.), but he can be removed without toppling the entire dynasty.

Their combined actions along with Rhaella's weakness, Varys' schemes, and the fact that ALL of the Targaryen children were under the age of 10 is what doomed the dynasty.

If Jaime had acted as a true knight, then Jaime just should've opened his mouth and told the truth about why he did it. His story would have been easily and quickly verified.

Even if killing Aerys was justified, why did he not immediately inquire after Rhaenys and Aegon? The deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar makes Aegon the new King of Westeros. As a Kingsguard, his post-Aerys actions are bewildering.

The least he could've done is sheathe the body of his King. Instead, he leaves the king's cold, bloody corpse on the ground and sits himself on said king's royal seat for God knows how long it was before Ned Stark showed up.

It’s very clear that early Targaryens pre dance, saw themselves as a different class of human. That all other families were beneath them. Probably because the Targaryen and other Dragonlord families used blood magic and genetic manipulation to make themselves literally, the blood of the dragon, but that’s just a theory at this point. Post Dance Targ exceptionalism faltered, and I think after Aegon IV it was in tatters. Aside from Aerys II but he was mad so who cares what he thinks.

 

Also I’ll agree with you on Jaime’s actions post Aerys stabbing is a bit bewildering. From his perspective, he was asked to violated his vows as a Knight to protect the innocent from Aerys, so he killed him. Fair enough. But not immediately trying to find Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys seems to indicate that he aligned with his father completely. Or he was just in utter shock from the whole situation. Still as a bodyguard that makes him 0/2 at that point

[BlackLightning]

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Every family is magical to a degree, that's an absurd point.

No, the absurd point is the fact that you say that every family is magical to a degree.

The Targaryens can dream the future, give birth to reptilian-human hybrids and command dragons.

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

How you figure?

If Aerys was a normal king with a normal state-of-mind, and if Rhaegar insisted on making a second wife out of Lyanna Stark, then yes, you'd have conflict and drama, but you would not have all-out war.

• The Martells stayed loyal to the Targaryens despite the fact that Aerys was a bigoted, anti-Dornish lunatic and despite the fact that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. So, Rhaegar and Lyanna making their union a public, legal affair wouldn't change anything. Yes, they'd grumble and be worried about the rights of Elia and her children but they'd toe the line, especially since Aegon would still be the heir of a King Rhaegar I and Rhaenys would be the heir's heir. Plus, at this point, Doran Martell is in charge, and we all know that he's very good at sitting on his hands.
• Brandon Stark might feel some type of way about but, ultimately, Lyanna's marriage to Rhaegar Targaryen means that the Seven Kingdoms will have its first ever Stark queen with Stark-Targaryen princelings. It doesn't matter how far down the line of succession they are. Such an arrangement is an enormous benefit to House Stark. Now, if Rhaegar just kidnapped and raped Lyanna, then the Starks and their bannermen would be livid. The only way to appease them (and prevent true warfare) would be to make Lyanna the second wife and queen of Rhaegar and any children she'd bear legal Targaryen princes and princesses.

In this case, the only real issue you would have would be with the Baratheons and the Lannisters. Robert would be furious and probably will try to instigate a rebellion like his grandfather Lyonel did...but, like that rebellion, it would not get far. The Stormlands have no significant natural defenses (unlike the North and Dorne); the Starks, the Martells, the Tullys (in this timeline, Brandon would still marry Catelyn) and the Tyrells would all be firmly pro-Targaryen; the Greyjoys are unreliable; and the Arryns would be of no help as the reason for their rebellion is that Jon Arryn was put in an impossible positio. In fact, Robert would probably be exiled to the Wall or across the Narrow Sea for his trouble meaning that Stannis would be the new Lord of Storm's End.

Tywin would sulk and brood...but he wouldn't bestir himself either. Now, the Baratheons and Lannisters could team up...but what would be the point? A Baratheon-Lannister team up cannot stand against the rest of the nation and take the Iron Throne, much less hold it. How would they even coordinate? Their armies would be on different sides of the continent.

53 minutes ago, frenin said:

• Jaime did not really have time to think about it. He quite literally told the Lannister men to spare everyone, he did not think they were going to be killed.
• Jaime was there when Aerys made Viserys, not Aegon, his new heir.

Oh, but he had time to think about sitting on the Iron Throne?

He definitely had time.

Good point on Viserys being named the heir. You're right; I forgot about that.**

 

**This means that even if Aegon was the real deal, Daenerys would still be the heir after Viserys.

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'd say they are more than the Lannisters, Tarlys or any other House with a long, storied lineage.

They don't like marrying with other people, they believe everyone else as lesser, they crave their own physical traits and they  literally believe themselves gods among men.

I can only think of Jaime ever having that kind of rudiculous mindset and even then, he was comparing himself and his family... to the Targaryens.

I literally just explained that the real difference between the Targaryens and everyone else is because they can back their elitism with cold, hard reality.

And what do you mean when you say "they?" Who is "they?" Sure, Viserys III thinks like that, but Daenerys does not. She marries an Meereenese ex-slaver for God's sake! Viserys III does not even think like that or else he would have never agreed to a marriage between his royal heir and a barbarian warlord...especially not when said royal heir did not consent.

Daemon Targaryen thinks like that? Almost certainly...but neither his brother Viserys II, nor his niece Rhaenyra felt that way. Not even his grandparents felt that way...you can see it based on the way that they treated their daughters.

 

 

[frenin]

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

No, the absurd point is the fact that you say that every family is magical to a degree.

The Targaryens can dream the future, give birth to reptilian-human hybrids and command dragons.

Martells could literally use water spells, what about it?

Are you denying that Targaryen do not believe their ethnicity superior to all others or that they are gods among men? That it is not elitism.

When you base your feelings of superiority on your social status or high birth or whatever then sure, you're an elitist prick.

When you base it on your ethnicity however... 

 

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If Aerys was a normal king with a normal state-of-mind, and if Rhaegar insisted on making a second wife out of Lyanna Stark, then yes, you'd have conflict and drama, but you would not have all-out war.

Rhaegar has neither the power, nor the alliances, nor the law, nor the standing to force such thing. What you are suggesting is literally heresy and the Targaryen have since lost their dragons.

He either gets desinherited and sent to the Wall or he finds himself with a Rebellion on his hands but he certainly don't get away with murder.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The Martells stayed loyal to the Targaryens despite the fact that Aerys was a bigoted, anti-Dornish lunatic and despite the fact that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

Because and only because  all out war had broken out and more importantly the rebels had made public their intention of deposing House Targaryen.

The rebels had literally forced the Martells and the Targaryen to be on the same boat, it was the only way to ensure Elia and her kids made it out alive, they failed and Elia and the children paid the price.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

but they'd toe the line,

That seems more your wishful thinking than based on anything.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

since Aegon would still be the heir of a King Rhaegar I

Aegon would still be the heir of Aerys II without Rhaegar in the picture.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Plus, at this point, Doran Martell is in charge, and we all know that he's very good at sitting on his hands.

When he does not see a winning side, Rhaegar is clearly the losing side and his most powerful ally is literally... Doran.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Brandon Stark might feel some type of way about but, ultimately, Lyanna's marriage to Rhaegar Targaryen means that the Seven Kingdoms will have its first ever Stark queen with Stark-Targaryen princelings.

Polygamy is not a thing.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Now, if Rhaegar just kidnapped and raped Lyanna, then the Starks and their bannermen would be livid. The only way to appease them (and prevent true warfare) would be to make Lyanna the second wife and queen of Rhaegar and any children she'd bear legal Targaryen princes and princesses.

1. Polygamy is not a thing.
2. Robert still intended to marry Lyanna
3. Robert still intended to kill Rhaegar.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Robert would be furious and probably will try to instigate a rebellion like his grandfather Lyonel did...but, like that rebellion, it would not get far.

That rebellion did not get far because Lyonel Baratheon was appeased.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Oh, but he had time to think about sitting on the Iron Throne?

Yeah.

 

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I literally just explained that the real difference between the Targaryens and everyone else is because they can back their elitism with cold, hard reality.

You're not discussing elitism tho. And this is honestly silly to argue.

 

Quote

And what do you mean when you say "they?" Who is "they?" Sure, Viserys III thinks like that, but Daenerys does not. She marries an Meereenese ex-slaver for God's sake! Viserys III does not even think like that or else he would have never agreed to a marriage between his royal heir and a barbarian warlord...especially not when said royal heir did not consent.

Daenerys, Viserys, Jaeharys, Alyssane, Daemon, Bloodraven yadda yadda yadda.

All Targaryens are heavily influenced by their exceptionalism one way or the other.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

It’s very clear that early Targaryens pre dance, saw themselves as a different class of human. That all other families were beneath them. Probably because the Targaryen and other Dragonlord families used blood magic and genetic manipulation to make themselves literally, the blood of the dragon, but that’s just a theory at this point. Post Dance Targ exceptionalism faltered, and I think after Aegon IV it was in tatters. Aside from Aerys II but he was mad so who cares what he thinks.

That actually doesn't seem to be the case. There is no indication that nobility and smallfolk viewed the Targaryens with less awe during the reign of Daeron II (in THK) than they did during the dragon days or the later reign of Aerys II.

The Valyrian dragonlords certainly always saw themselves apart from other men ... but unlike with real world aristocratic and monarchistic ideology this was actually founded on something in the real world - the whole blood of the dragon thing.

This is an issue pretty much with all fantasy SF stuff with 'special people with hereditary magical abilities': Are people justified to view themselves as lesser or better than themselves because of actual abilities that set themselves apart. For instance, are the telepaths in 'Babylon 5' wrong to view themselves as a fundamental different class/sub-species of humans that cannot really live together with non-telepaths? Are the Marvel mutants right or wrong in stressing that their abilities set them apart from and/or above 'normal people'? Those questions are not easily answered. Skinchangers suffer from something similar in Westeros, being loathed and hated by 'normal people' and forced to live 'amongst their own'.

Now, the dragonlord thing is relatively minor magical feature, but the Targaryens are not just dragonlords but also a royal dynasty that conquered nearly an entire continent. As a dynasty they have a right - within the framework of the feudal society they live in - to view themselves as the best of the best. Paired with their Valyrian heritage this very much explains their haughty attitude. But it is really not that much different from the other houses towering over their bannermen and subjects.

2 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Also I’ll agree with you on Jaime’s actions post Aerys stabbing is a bit bewildering. From his perspective, he was asked to violated his vows as a Knight to protect the innocent from Aerys, so he killed him. Fair enough. But not immediately trying to find Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys seems to indicate that he aligned with his father completely. Or he was just in utter shock from the whole situation. Still as a bodyguard that makes him 0/2 at that point

Jaime didn't do what he did to save the smallfolk, etc. He turned against the king, because Aerys had commanded him to murder his own father. He also wanted to save his father and the Lannister host from the wildfire inferno, so he killed Rossart. But then he could have just arrested or distracted the Mad King. He didn't need to kill him. He killed him, because he wanted to, because he enjoyed it. That's why he told Aerys that he had killed Rossart before he attacked him. He wanted to see and enjoy his fear.

It is understandable why Jaime broke and killed his king. He was a youth and he basically had to attend a maniac who constantly executed people in a cruel fashion. But he didn't break his Kingsguard vows because he had to to defend the innocent.

Or rather: He didn't have to become a Kingslayer (i.e. committing the greatest sin a KG could commit). He could have just committed a lesser treason by just murdering Rossart and arresting his king. Then Tywin or Robert would have to bloody their hands with royal blood, not he.

Just compare Jaime's treason to the way Barristan Selmy maneuvers himself through treasonous waters in ADwD. He stages a coup against King Hizdahr, consort and successor to his Queen Daenerys. Barristan decided to arrest and not murder Hizdahr, so Hizdahr's involvement in any plot against Daenerys could be investigated and uncovered ... and his queen herself could, if she were to ever return to Meereen, sit in judgment over both Hizdahr and Barristan (if she so chose).

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

All this talk about the Targaryens being racist Nazi eugenicists is stupid.

Straight up.

They are elitist, yes, but no more than the Lannisters, the Tarlys, or any other House with a long, storied lineage.

 

Agreed.

People of Valyrian descent (who I imagine are quite numerous in the Crownlands, Dragonstone, and Driftmark) don’t form a hereditary ruling caste in Westeros, in the way that the Mongols and Manchus did in China.

The Targaryens are privileged, by virtue of being the royal family, like any other royal dynasty.

Had the Lannisters, Starks, Martells etc. conquered Westeros, they would view themselves, and be viewed by others, in the same light.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

People of Valyrian descent (who I imagine are quite numerous in the Crownlands, Dragonstone, and Driftmark) don’t form a hereditary ruling caste in Westeros, in the way that the Mongols and Manchus did in China.

I doubt the other Valyrian descent families are as hmm, let's say special as the Targaryens, as they were exposed to Westeros for centuries.

This argument however is absurd, if the only racist people in this world were the ruling castes, racism would not be a thing.

The Targaryen believe, their blood and their phusical traits make them literally superior to everyone, they believe themselves gods by virtue of their ethnicity.

Try as you want, this is not elitism.

[Alester Florent]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:48 AM, SeanF said:

Attacking royalty is usually going to be a serious crime (in any setting).

But:-

1. Arya’s an 8 year old girl.  Sexism protects her here, since the idea of her actually threatening Joffrey would be laughed out of court.

And indeed this is exactly the reaction that Joffrey's complaint receives from the kingdom's Master of Laws.

Bobby would probably have handled it the same way, too, or ignored it completely, had it not been for Cersei.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Agreed.

People of Valyrian descent (who I imagine are quite numerous in the Crownlands, Dragonstone, and Driftmark) don’t form a hereditary ruling caste in Westeros, in the way that the Mongols and Manchus did in China.

The Targaryens are privileged, by virtue of being the royal family, like any other royal dynasty.

Had the Lannisters, Starks, Martells etc. conquered Westeros, they would view themselves, and be viewed by others, in the same light.

To a part. Any other royal house conquering Westeros would give themselves another superior royal aura, but the Targaryens are not obsessed about their Valyrian ancestry, but their Valyrian dragonlord ancestry. Which is special in their own right, a fact that's also stressed by the lesser scions of the dragon family tree (Rennifer Longwaters, for instance, and even Brown Ben Plumm to a point).

That obsession with a special noble lineage which sets you apart from lesser people is actually a genuine Westerosi trait, and not something the Targaryens introduced to Westeros. You can deduce that from the obsession of certain houses with their silly heraldic animals. Jaime presumes himself better than Ned because he is a lion and not a wolf, the writer of the Rains of Castamere uses the lions in both banners as a cause for Reyne hubris, the Kingslander story about the arrogant lions eventually being punished for their transgressions by a freshly hatched dragon also plays with that motif, etc.

In context of the Targaryens, there is also little reason to believe that these people actually believed their own propaganda. Their subjects did - as Cersei proves when she deems herself and Jaime as unworthy of public incest whilst the Targaryen were, in her mind, allowed to do that because they were different/better. But there is no Targaryen actually walking around believing that they are a different breed of people aside from the small things like the dragonbonding talent and a heightened resilience towards certain infectious diseases - which is apparently something there is some empirical evidence for.