Jump to content

The Stark kids and warging, genetics or blood magic?


LongRider

Recommended Posts

While warging/skinchanging seems to have some heritability, we can't of course discount the magic angle.  The Stark kids present some interesting issues regarding this, and what's known and understood about warging/skinchanging.   Please note that when going forward when I write warg or warging, that this includes skinchanging, but I just don't want to type it out.  

In the prolouge of ADWD we learn:  "Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."  Here we learn dogs are easier to warg than wolves and indeed, the family dogs were Varamyr's first wargs when he was still a child.

What then of the Stark kids? There is mention of a kennel at WF, and as the kids had the run of the castle, they all must have interacted with the dogs and puppies of Winterfell.  When the direwolf pups were first found, Jon, Robb and Bran all reacted like kids who like dogs and puppies.  And yet, we do not have any mentions of the kids warging the dogs.  Why is that?  If warging dogs is easy as Haggon noted, and shown by Varamry, why did the kids not warg them?  If warging/skinchanging is inherited, why no warging for the Starks until the direwolf pups were introduced?

Magic seems to be the answer and possible blood magic at that.  The direwolf bitch shed her blood when speared by the stag, and Gared shed his blood when beheaded by Ned.  These events happened within a short ride of each other.  Did blood magic bring out what was latent in the Stark kids; the innate ability to warg which had not be activated until the pups were found?  Once the warging ability was started, they began to warg the pups, with each child having their own unique ability.  The direwolves died out south of the Wall about two hundred years prior according to Theon who mentioned it when the pups were found.  So, was it blood magic that brought back warging magic south of the Wall.  I checked the timeline and the hatching of the dragons still months away.    

Link to time line

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Magic is comming back to the world, the staarks have warg and greenseer blood in them  due to their subjecation and interbreeding with the marsh kings and the warg kings(and possibly a few wildlings and kings beyomd the wall!) Plus to kickstart the vodoo  off they  raise and form bonds with the very mythical creature on their sigil!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, LR, you know I LOVE THIS STUFF, so thankee, Sai!  You are thinking it is only the blood spilled on a Black Brother who has escaped an Other (is that even important?) and that of a previously 200 years regionally extinct magical creature both south of the Wall in the proximity of possibly magical ground of Winterfell (is that even important?) that activated the warging powers in the magical Stark children?  This is the blood magic of death paying for life after a fashion as we see in other places.  On a basic level it does work.  I totally get how the potential for the magic is there in the blood, and the ritual demand for blood is met.  But...sorry, there is usually a but, well, it seems like part.  You know, a step in the chain.  I think you are right about this, there has to be blood spilt.  All the magic wants that.  I just think there is more to it.  All I really have to go on is Beric and Arya's Faceless Men and Dany in the Pyre.  Beric and Dany need either spells or prayer.   Dany needs fire while Beric needs fire of a sort though it is internal ish.  Arya needs a potion then a prosthetic.   They all have 2 steps to activate the magic.   

Forgive me, I know I confuse myself.  I figure the magic is there just hanging out getting stale in some places and chaotic in others, but it's just there waiting.  We have that lousy comet.   Maybe it's something, maybe not.  We have at least 4 magical human characters in puberty (Robb, Jon, Dany, Sansa).  We have stinking Others making themselves known.  We have Bloodraven fixin' to really and truly die.  Lots of potential third, 4th however many steps.  I see perfect little storms here in different places with the sacrifices, blood spilling being the thing that seals the deal.  Thoughts?  I love being straightened out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Curl!

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

You are thinking it is only the blood spilled on a Black Brother who has escaped an Other (is that even important?) and that of a previously 200 years regionally extinct magical creature both south of the Wall in the proximity of possibly magical ground of Winterfell (is that even important?) that activated the warging powers in the magical Stark children?  This is the blood magic of death paying for life after a fashion as we see in other places. 

If the Stark kids are latent wargs, perhaps they needed a boost to the magic.  Two creatures with blood spilt.  While Gared is not magical he did survive an encounter an event with an Other and the wighted Waymar Royce.  First step is the execution of Gared which was ritualized event.  Ned gathered his sons and his men to witness the death.  The second step, the direwolf, the symbol of the Stark house was killed by a stag with an antler still in her throat.  A direwolf killed by a stag, foreshadowing the story to come, and a living pup for each of the Stark kids. Let's not forget, Ned cleansed his sword Ice in the pool before the Weirwood heart tree. From the start of the chapter to this scene, it's just dripping with magic! 

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I figure the magic is there just hanging out getting stale in some places and chaotic in others, but it's just there waiting.

This is a very interesting thought, the magic, just there waiting.  I like it! 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, LongRider said:

Hey Curl!

If the Stark kids are latent wargs, perhaps they needed a boost to the magic.  Two creatures with blood spilt.  While Gared is not magical he did survive an encounter an event with an Other and the wighted Waymar Royce.  First step is the execution of Gared which was ritualized event.  Ned gathered his sons and his men to witness the death.  The second step, the direwolf, the symbol of the Stark house was killed by a stag with an antler still in her throat.  A direwolf killed by a stag, foreshadowing the story to come, and a living pup for each of the Stark kids. Let's not forget, Ned cleansed his sword Ice in the pool before the Weirwood heart tree. From the start of the chapter to this scene, it's just dripping with magic! 

 

This is a very interesting thought, the magic, just there waiting.  I like it! 

 

Whew!  I was following!  So yah, I think you are right on.   The price of magic, warging, dragons, life after multiple execution whatever--all require blood to activate magic.   I believe you have put your clever finger upon exactly what's engaging the magic in these places.  Thanks for clarifying my whacky questions.  Now then, with wargs and wights and dragons and zombies about, how is the magic harnessed?  You think maybe it is through the dreams?  I don't know if Beric or LSH dreamed/dreams, but the changes in Thoros and Stannis even are clear as the result of their personal magic being drawn.  This reminds me of Jon and Dany waking from their vivid and horrifying dreams.  I do wonder how the all the kids will ultimately get to understanding what they really are and learning to use their magic.   All of it!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

A good question. Whether it requires blood magic: if we go by Varamyr, not really. He skinchanged his favourite dog to kill his baby brother. So, the skinchanging came before the blood.

I wonder if being north of the Wall makes Varamyr subject to different rules of magical engagement?   I mean, the magic is obviously active and running amuck there.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, LongRider said:

While warging/skinchanging seems to have some heritability, we can't of course discount the magic angle.  The Stark kids present some interesting issues regarding this, and what's known and understood about warging/skinchanging.   Please note that when going forward when I write warg or warging, that this includes skinchanging, but I just don't want to type it out.  

In the prolouge of ADWD we learn:  "Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."  Here we learn dogs are easier to warg than wolves and indeed, the family dogs were Varamyr's first wargs when he was still a child.

What then of the Stark kids? There is mention of a kennel at WF, and as the kids had the run of the castle, they all must have interacted with the dogs and puppies of Winterfell.  When the direwolf pups were first found, Jon, Robb and Bran all reacted like kids who like dogs and puppies.  And yet, we do not have any mentions of the kids warging the dogs.  Why is that?  If warging dogs is easy as Haggon noted, and shown by Varamry, why did the kids not warg them?  If warging/skinchanging is inherited, why no warging for the Starks until the direwolf pups were introduced?

Magic seems to be the answer and possible blood magic at that.  The direwolf bitch shed her blood when speared by the stag, and Gared shed his blood when beheaded by Ned.  These events happened within a short ride of each other.  Did blood magic bring out what was latent in the Stark kids; the innate ability to warg which had not be activated until the pups were found?  Once the warging ability was started, they began to warg the pups, with each child having their own unique ability.  The direwolves died out south of the Wall about two hundred years prior according to Theon who mentioned it when the pups were found.  So, was it blood magic that brought back warging magic south of the Wall.  I checked the timeline and the hatching of the dragons still months away.    

Link to time line

 

Not necessary blood magic, but magic that is inherited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Those most common theory is that Dany's dragons brought magic back into the world, yet magic was still in existence before her dragons were birthed. (And she used magic to birth the dragons in the first place.) The Stark children were born wargs, but something is strengthening their magic, as well as everyone else's. Perhaps it's the comet, or maybe it's just a natural phenomenon, but sort of like an overload. The strengthening of magic could be viewed by readers as another apocalyptic threat of sorts. It's being strongly inflicted onto people who don't know how to properly wield or control it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Whew!  I was following!  So yah, I think you are right on.   The price of magic, warging, dragons, life after multiple execution whatever--all require blood to activate magic.   I believe you have put your clever finger upon exactly what's engaging the magic in these places.  Thanks for clarifying my whacky questions.  Now then, with wargs and wights and dragons and zombies about, how is the magic harnessed?  

Blood magic, as I understand it, requires a sacrifice.  Gared's blood was shed, it was an execution for desertion from the NW.  And what of the mother direwolf, killed in a fight for her and her pups life?  Sacrafices?  Likey not but blood was shed.  As for your wacky questions, keep asking!

17 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Those most common theory is that Dany's dragons brought magic back into the world, yet magic was still in existence before her dragons were birthed. (And she used magic to birth the dragons in the first place.) The Stark children were born wargs, but something is strengthening their magic, as well as everyone else's. Perhaps it's the comet, or maybe it's just a natural phenomenon, but sort of like an overload. The strengthening of magic could be viewed by readers as another apocalyptic threat of sorts.

As for Dany's dragons bringing magic into the world, I checked the timeline mentioned in the OP and found this:

Quote

298    3/1    Gared caught, direwolves found    Bran 1    Bran

299    1/23    Dragons hatch, comet    Dany 10  
 

The pups were found about 10 months before the dragons hatched. And like Dany's dragons, it may well be that blood was needed to bring out their warging abilities. 

25 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

It's being strongly inflicted onto people who don't know how to properly wield or control it. 

Yes, this!  In Varamyr's chapter, when his father realized that he had warging abilities, he sent him to be with "his his own kind" and it was with them he learned how to be a warg.  The Stark kids, and Dany too, had to learn their magic by doing, and didn't understand it.  For the Starks, it was expressed in different ways, two examples, Rickon and Shaggy Dog developed a quick bond and then reflected each other.  It was Jojen and BR whom trained Bran, Jojen the basics and BR the advanced skills necessary for greenseeing.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I wonder if being north of the Wall makes Varamyr subject to different rules of magical engagement?   I mean, the magic is obviously active and running amuck there.  

In my POV, I don't think so, magic is south of the Wall, just not manifest or assessable.  One might say that it's making it's entrance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, LongRider said:

What then of the Stark kids? There is mention of a kennel at WF, and as the kids had the run of the castle, they all must have interacted with the dogs and puppies of Winterfell.  When the direwolf pups were first found, Jon, Robb and Bran all reacted like kids who like dogs and puppies.  And yet, we do not have any mentions of the kids warging the dogs.  Why is that?  If warging dogs is easy as Haggon noted, and shown by Varamry, why did the kids not warg them?  If warging/skinchanging is inherited, why no warging for the Starks until the direwolf pups were introduced?

Good question. I think it has to do with what Jojen says:

Quote

“The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you’re awake, but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong is you.” 

"your soul seeks out its other half" sounds like the direwolf and person together form a whole, one, essentially becoming one being. This is also suggested by Haggon:

Quote

A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. “Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”

It also reminds me of the relationship between Cersei and Jamie, at least the way Cersei views it. They are twins born from the same parents and same womb, came into this world attached to each other (Jamie holding Cersei's foot), her belief they will die together. They are two halves of a whole. 

Another take on the idea, this time from Dany:

Quote

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within heras if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him,

 

The unborn Rhaego and the dragon within the egg, reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. Very similar to Bran's soul seeking out its other half. 

Considering the Starks place the direwolf on their sigil and have stone statues of them at the foot of the tombs of their dead kings (they do not part even in death), and are said to have the "wolf blood," this suggests Starks are bound first and foremost to direwolves, perhaps even in the same way that dragons are bound to Targs (blood of the dragon). And this may pertain to direwolves in particular, not to ordinary wolves. To put it simply, it makes sense for the soul of a direwolf to be the "other half" of a wolf-blooded Stark, rather than a dog. A wolf-blooded person would not bond with a dog.

So that could be the reason why despite having the ability, the children do not react to dogs. Coming to think of it, iirc, we have not met any warg who specifically wargs a direwolf. Wolves yes but direwolves no. In this sense they again mirror the dragon/valyrian bond. Perhaps it's indeed exclusive to Starks. Jon does point out the number and sexes of the pups indicating that they were meant for the Stark kids. 

This idea of being "wedded" to the direwolf also suggests another skinchanger desirous of a claimed direwolf might not succeed in ripping the animal from its owner (like Varamyr does with Haggon's wolf).

There is also the idea of the familiar animal "singing" to the person it wants to bond with in order to initiate the bond itself. Recall Jon somehow "hears" the mute Ghost, meant for him alone, though no one else does. This phenomenon of "singing" is only described for wolves and dragons. @wolfmaid7 presented an excellent theory on "Those who sing" years ago and I do believe she nailed it. It's one of my favourite theories because it explains so much about the bonding process. Check it out here.  

 

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You are thinking it is only the blood spilled on a Black Brother who has escaped an Other (is that even important?) and that of a previously 200 years regionally extinct magical creature both south of the Wall in the proximity of possibly magical ground of Winterfell (is that even important?) that activated the warging powers in the magical Stark children? 

It would not surprise me if an initial blood sacrifice was necessary to reactivate the lost warging ability (lost as implied by the 200 year gap). Going back to Dany and Drogo's wedding as a comparison: she first receives the eggs on this occasion and is witness to many deaths, which the Dothraki consider a blessing. A first sacrifice to reactivate the bond? 

In the Stark's case, the ironwood stump Gared is beheadded on also appears significant. I wonder if ironwood is similar to iron in respect of keeping spirts locked up. Gared's blood could be what "unlocks" the iron so that spirits, or souls may be able to fly free once more. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good question. If it wasn't for the examples we have of Arya reaching out to the cat and Bran getting into Hodor's head I would be suspicious that it was all coming in the other direction and it was the animals that were magic, not hte kids that they'd bonded to. If it was genetic you would expect that at least Robb or Sansa would have had the chance to manifest a bit of ability in their childhood, and like you say there were puppies a plenty, but clearly their powers were triggered at the time the wolf pups were found.  I don't recall Varamyr's chapter that well, was there a triggering event for his powers or did he just sort of notice them as he was growing up?

Let's say for a minute it's magic. Does this mean that Bran is being wholly lied to by Rivers? He has no natural born ability, Bloodraven fed him a line, shows him what he needs to see, wargs Hodor when Bran wants to warg Hodor and it's all via his familiar Summer? It wouldn't necessarily explain Arya but we've seen her dream of Nym since crossing the Narrow Sea so maybe distance and the Wall don't impede dreamsending and skin changing or whatever it is that BR does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Evolett said:

"your soul seeks out its other half" sounds like the direwolf and person together form a whole, one, essentially becoming one being.

Good point, and it doesn't take long for the reader to see this as the kids and pups bond to each other.  The pups very much mirror the personalities of their kid.  For example, Lady, taciturn and obedient like Sansa, Shaggy Dog, fierce and getting wilder like Rickon.

34 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Considering the Starks place the direwolf on their sigil and have stone statues of them at the foot of the tombs of their dead kings (they do not part even in death), and are said to have the "wolf blood," this suggests Starks are bound first and foremost to direwolves, perhaps even in the same way that dragons are bound to Targs (blood of the dragon).....we have not met any warg who specifically wargs a direwolf. Wolves yes but direwolves no. In this sense they again mirror the dragon/valyrian bond.  Perhaps it's indeed exclusive to Starks. Jon does point out the number and sexes of the pups indicating that they were meant for the Stark kids. 

This is a point I haven't seen or considered before, and I find to be quite salient.  Only Targaryens hatch and ride dragons, and only the Starks, bond and warg direwolves.  

59 minutes ago, Evolett said:

It would not surprise me if an initial blood sacrifice was necessary to reactivate the lost warging ability (lost as implied by the 200 year gap). Going back to Dany and Drogo's wedding as a comparison: she first receives the eggs on this occasion and is witness to many deaths, which the Dothraki consider a blessing. A first sacrifice to reactivate the bond? 

In the Stark's case, the ironwood stump Gared is beheadded on also appears significant. I wonder if ironwood is similar to iron in respect of keeping spirts locked up. Gared's blood could be what "unlocks" the iron so that spirits, or souls may be able to fly free once more. 

"His father took off the man's head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched."

Good call!   The bolded does echo a sacrifice.  As for the blood releasing souls and spirits, yikes!  

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

This is a point I haven't seen or considered before, and I find to be quite salient.  Only Targaryens hatch and ride dragons, and only the Starks, bond and warg direwolves.  

GRRM doesn't even allow us to consider it. Between Dany's insistent "I am the blood of the dragon," and Ned's cringing retreat from the wolf-blood that causes premature death, readers don't even realize the wolf-blood might mirror the blood of the dragon. Dragons flying on high, stone direwolves hidden away in the crypts...

4 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Good call!   The bolded does echo a sacrifice.  As for the blood releasing souls and spirits, yikes!  

:devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Going back to Dany and Drogo's wedding as a comparison: she first receives the eggs on this occasion and is witness to many deaths, which the Dothraki consider a blessing. A first sacrifice to reactivate the bond? 

Dany's wedding is her own hatching as a dragon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Good call!   The bolded does echo a sacrifice.  As for the blood releasing souls and spirits, yikes!  

Dany's eggs hatching ,the Rhlorites who successfully burn people for fair winds, possibly this. It seems that whoever receives blood sacrifices is not very picky and very grateful to receive the sacrifice because blood magic works whether the magician knows what he or she is doing or not and it seems to grant boons whether asked for or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Dany's eggs hatching ,the Rhlorites who successfully burn people for fair winds, possibly this. It seems that whoever receives blood sacrifices is not very picky and very grateful to receive the sacrifice because blood magic works whether the magician knows what he or she is doing or not and it seems to grant boons whether asked for or not.

This goes back to the sword without a hilt, one must be careful with magic, even if like the Starks, and Dany too, they don't know what they could be unleashing.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

This goes back to the sword without a hilt, one must be careful with magic, even if like the Starks, and Dany too, they don't know what they could be unleashing.   

Considering those Starks have the potential ability to perform greenseeing, necromancy and crannog magic in addition to the warging umbrella I don't think anyone really knows what they could be unleashing or have the power to maybe vanquish.   Whatever has been waiting in their DNA has been waiting a very long time for the right time to show.  Dany's power is truly awesome, combined with her fire resistance and interesting dream life, she is a weapon like no other.  We don't yet even see what the Starks kids can be now that their price has been paid.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...