If you were the king of Westeros !!!

[Willam Stark]

I'm going to imagine being Robert at the end of the rebellion, to get a clear context. First thing, I would send all the Riverlords, Valelords, Stormlords who supported the Mad King against me and their liege lord to the Wall, including the remaining members of the Targ freak's Small Council. I would keep Barristan with me and name him lord Commander of the Kingsguard like in the canon, but I would remove Jaime from it under the pretext he killed his previous king and I won't feel safe around him, but would pardon him in the same time so that he can become the heir of Tywin once again. I will also marry Cersei to make Tywin happy and treat her well, this way she won't plot against me and agree to sire as many children as she can. My main reforms would be the following

1. Define clear laws of succession: The Iron Throne belongs to House Baratheon, the type of succession is the agnatic primogeniture. The eldest son of the previous King inherits, if the King dies childless then the eldest brother inherits and so forth. The women cannot inherit but can pass on the legacy of the previous King if the male line dies out completely. In this case, then the eldest male of the eldest female branch inherits and takes the name Baratheon. The succession is automatic and if a loophole occurs during the power transition then the Hand must call a Great Council who will settle the issue.

2. Annexing the Stormlands: The Stormlands would be under the direct authority of the Crown. The heir apparent would be called the Prince of Storm's End rather than the prince of Dragonstone. Dragonstone would be the Seat of my second son and Daenerys if I can capture her.

3. Develop economy and finance: I will create a Royal Bank and new currency which would be the gold stag with an exchange rate of 1:1 with gold dragon. I would create port cities at the mouth of each river accessible by boat to develop seaborne trade, connect them to the Kingsroad and send merchants and local smallfolk to take care of it. I would also create a Port City at Sea Dragon Point and settle Iron born there. The goal will be to generate a trade surplus through the export of manufactured goods, farm products, wood, fishing. The import will be limited to raw products, foreign products will be overtaxed while domestically produced products will have low taxes. The Royal Bank will be owned by the Crown and will serve as a depository bank as well as an investment bank. Interest-bearing loans will be made for foreigners by the Royal Bank but not for Westerosi.

4. Develop a Nobility of Robe: All laws will be clearly codified in several books called "The Laws of Westeros". I would create a university in King's Landing and bring second sons of noblemen and  sons of rich merchants to study law, finance so that they can become judges, bankers and stuff. I would also create courts in each Kingdom to judge smallfolks, a Supreme Court in King's Landing to judge noblemen and settle succession crisis. The Master of Laws and Master of Coin would supervise all of this, under my authority.

Basically I would aim to undermine feudal lords, unify Westeros under my direct authority by centralizing power. I know they won't like my reforms, that's why I would make sure to make has many children as possible and marry them to lords paramount. As for the last Targaryens, I would send assassins to kill Viserys, capture Daenerys in order to marry her to my second son and give them Dragonstone. Stannis and Renly would both have a seat in the Stormlands, the eldest would marry Malora Hightower, the youngest an Yronwood girl.

[astarkchoice]

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Ok a interesting thougth experience, so this is my take: 

1) Break the Ironborn once and for all, provoke them into rebellion or put pressure on them to have ALL they're noble kids educated on the main land, preferably near the sea so that they continue to be good sailors but really break the reaver mentality, and if push comes to shove go real hard on them and obliterated them, leaving Old Wyk empty of human life and using the ironborn in a massive projet (wich i will mention later). I know I am talking about genocide, but they have done nothing but reave, murder and rape for thousands of years, I would put a very hard stop to that, and make sure it would not happen ever again, the same way the japanese and german renounced war after WWII. 

2) Pacify the rest of the realm, especially the mountain clans and the wildlings, use the carrot and the stick, negotiate to have them settle in better lands, or in the Iron Island if they resisted and are a bit empty know, but then send yearly expedition into the mountains with knigth from all the realm to make sure that they stay in there mountains and dont bother trades along the high road. Do the same woth the wildlings have them settle the iron island or be subject to yearly military expedition to keep them in check. That would also mean using the westerosi nobility and keeping them from infigthing. If the ironborn chose the easy way then the clans could be settled else where in the kingdom.

3) Secure at least the eastern part of the Septstones and integrate them in the realm, but do it with at least one ally, my preference would be to Tyrosh, have them take the eastern stepstones and be the focus of the others city's ire, settled the island with westerosi nobility and people as well has wildlings and mountain clans. This would also mean a safer connection with the far east no longer completely under essosi control.

4) Extend the City's and towns, give a charter to Duskendale, Maidenpool, Fairmarket, Barrowton, the Shadow City, Stoney Sept, Bitter Bridge and Tumbleton. Found a city on the Mander and on Tarth. Push for trade and establish a real merchant class, give them better access to some official position and make sure the stigma of trade is no longer has big so that minor nobles or younger sons can make a living as merchants. 

5) Sponsor large enterprises, mostly by establishing a westerosi bank backed with the Lannister gold and the Faith, and use the founds to assemble large merchant fleets to the far east using the knew merchant class, once it becomes profitable maybe sponsor expeditions in the West and South, who knows what riches could be found.

6) Expand the road system, extend the Kingsroad down to the Shadow City, make a road connecting Barrowton to White Harbour, prolongue the High Road to Gulltown, extend the Sea Road up to the Twins along the sea, built a knew road from Oldtown to the Kingsroad following the Red mountains. And if I have the funds and the Ironborn rebelled, use them to built a canal between the Blue Fork and the western sea, cutting travel from the narrow sea and making it possible to sell cheap iron in the free city's. Also connect the Trident to the Blackwater if it is possible and still have enougth manpower.

7) Rebuilt Kingslanding, maybe not a white marble city or anything but at least make it a clean and not so confusing city, I mean Kingslanding is a absolute shithole, it is suppose to be a capital city and a shining jewel not a shining turd, so rebuilt and expand it a bit by sending people out of the city for sometime and building bit by bit.

8) Make the grand council a more permanent body, house it in the Dragonpit, have representative of each region nobility and merchant class to be used has a consultative body on the laws of the realm, have them rewrite the laws on the base of Jaehaery's code and with a couple foundamental law regulating the succession and the relation of the monarchy in relation to the faith.

9) Hopefully 8 will make it so that at least part of the nobility would pass quite sometime in the capital uniting it more and arrangeing mariage between far and between house to really cement a central rule.

10) If they're is still some spare cash laying around after all the expense that my project would demand, hire the Golden Company on a permanent basis, let officers have lands in the Iron Island and Stepstones and make them the core for a standing army, and also eliminating the permanent risk of having a strong and united army ready to invade to come back home.

So yeah that would be my main plan, unify the realm at the expense of my personnal power but also promoting a new merchant class to counter the nobility. Make sure that interior (ironborn and mountains clans) and exterior (wildlings and golden company) threats are pacified and included in the power structure, all the will expanding the economy to be rival multiple Essosie city's.

Dayumn ! Genocide right off the bat! Problem is victory at sea isnt guaranteed even with a numbers advantage ..if the ironborn  win a pitched battle at sea (very possibpe) then itl  cost an astronomical fortune to replace the arbor + royal fleets etc meanwhile the ironborn could reave (and burn harbours needed for rebuilding fleets )   then myr ,lys etc may decide a seemingly weak westeros with a broken fleet it may be time for them to  retake the stepstones! 

[Vaegon the dragonless]

2 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Dayumn ! Genocide right off the bat! Problem is victory at sea isnt guaranteed even with a numbers advantage ..if the ironborn  win a pitched battle at sea (very possibpe) then itl  cost an astronomical fortune to replace the arbor + royal fleets etc meanwhile the ironborn could reave (and burn harbours needed for rebuilding fleets )   then myr ,lys etc may decide a seemingly weak westeros with a broken fleet it may be time for them to  retake the stepstones! 

Yeah I should never be put in charge of anything important , but the Ironborn culture is just completely atrocious and backward with no redeeming quality, so short of genocide and dont know how to deal with them, and they need to be dealt with, it could also help with keeping the rest of the realm in line with the rest of the great reforms I would put in place. But on the victory part I disagree, if Im in charge of the whole of Westeros, I could bring to bear on the Ironislands the royal fleet, the velaryon fleet (if it is different to the royal fleet), the Arbor fleet, the Hightower fleet, the Shields fleet and the Lannister fleet, with a number's advantage like that victory is just a matters of time, the Greyjoy rebellion and all other instance of the Ironborn acting up show that a united Westeros can just body the ironborn. But sure it could still cost quite a few ships and delay the rest of my plans but I dont see how the ironborn can defeat a united fleet of Westeros outside of magic (looking at you Euron) or defeating in details, and even then the pure might of Westeros means that I would be capable of building 2 ships for everyone i loose and make sure that every ironborn ship sunk is permanent, also lets not forget that only the Ironfleet is really capable of facing of the warships of the other big navy, and depending on the timeline it could not exist. So all in all I think that the whole ironborn thing would only be a speed bump, and I might get a cool nickname out of it, Vaegon Ironbane or Vaegon Ironborn Slayer sounds cool enough. 

[astarkchoice]

@vaegon

Well if velyran fleet is still a thing in the period you are king thats substantial.

Overall  without it though its the ironborn (500) and arbor(500) the royal fleet is about 100 and the rest are 20s and 30s so ots not such a numbers disadvantage that the ironborn have to lose esp given if it decends into a huge melee at sea they are usualy the better sailors  for ramming etc and up close the crazy bastards are wearing mail+ armour!!!

If lost at sea  all the Losses can be replaced yes but the cost would be society alteringly large  ,he sort even robert would blush at  plus it takes time and would.assume ironborn leave the harbours building them alone and/or no one else rebels!!

 

Overall they are left alone because despite the greyjoy b.s about iron prices and not sowing they DO pay gold prices and sow away!  We can asssume at non rebellion time they do lots of trading such a iron (islands full of it) we can assume lots of fish to support such a big population for such small islands . They reave from othe pirates on the stepstones which is useful

Also westeros dirty lil secret may be lanisport, oldtown and arbor  being right beside the iron islands...what a good place to offload goods taken by reaving in essos or beyond ! Good for the ironborn and the westeros lords/merchants who  probably turn a blind eye to where these  discount rare + luxury goods and precious stones etc come from

[Vaegon the dragonless]

36 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

@vaegon

Well if velyran fleet is still a thing in the period you are king thats substantial.

Overall  without it though its the ironborn (500) and arbor(500) the royal fleet is about 100 and the rest are 20s and 30s so ots not such a numbers disadvantage that the ironborn have to lose esp given if it decends into a huge melee at sea they are usualy the better sailors  for ramming etc and up close the crazy bastards are wearing mail+ armour!!!

If lost at sea  all the Losses can be replaced yes but the cost would be society alteringly large  ,he sort even robert would blush at  plus it takes time and would.assume ironborn leave the harbours building them alone and/or no one else rebels!!

 

Overall they are left alone because despite the greyjoy b.s about iron prices and not sowing they DO pay gold prices and sow away!  We can asssume at non rebellion time they do lots of trading such a iron (islands full of it) we can assume lots of fish to support such a big population for such small islands . They reave from othe pirates on the stepstones which is useful

Also westeros dirty lil secret may be lanisport, oldtown and arbor  being right beside the iron islands...what a good place to offload goods taken by reaving in essos or beyond ! Good for the ironborn and the westeros lords/merchants who  probably turn a blind eye to where these  discount rare + luxury goods and precious stones etc come from

The Iron Fleet, is the only real threat of the Ironborn for me, it is composed of around 100 ships, all smaller then the war dromonds of the mainland, the Redwyne fleet alone doubles that number, then you had the royal fleet that would have around a hundred ships, and the rest of the the fleets I think you can easely get up to around a 500 warships, not counting other smaller ships that could go toe to toe with the rest of the ironborn fleet wich is composed of smaller longships (each great lords or the iron island have around a hundred of such ships) wich I would not think number more then 900 MAX, that would mean around a thousand ships for the ironborn against the whole of Westeros, the Redwyne fleet alone numbers a thousand ships that are not warships (five times they're 200 warships), so I would think that the whole of Westeros could with out to much difficulty muster 5 000 thousand smaller ships. Sure the Ironborn would have better sailors and would be more confident fighting on the sea but that would be a five to one advantages in numbers, with my ships being bigger on average, I would say that the odds are fairly well stacked in my favour, victory could be costly but it would be all but assured. 

I can see why there are left alone and I can understand that they a lot like a mosquito, annoying but mostly armless, the problem comes when they always make a bad situation worse, every time conflict happens in Westeros they rise up, pillage a already weaken kingdom, and not only in case of conflict but also in case of a natural disaster situation, so all in all sure, they are not a big problem and could even be a asset (has you pointed out) but in the long run I just dont think that they are good, and just like other pirates, they will need to be broken if they will not change on they're own, something they have not done over thousand of years.

[astarkchoice]

50 minutes ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

The Iron Fleet, is the only real threat of the Ironborn for me, it is composed of around 100 ships, all smaller then the war dromonds of the mainland, the Redwyne fleet alone doubles that number, then you had the royal fleet that would have around a hundred ships, and the rest of the the fleets I think you can easely get up to around a 500 warships, not counting other smaller ships that could go toe to toe with the rest of the ironborn fleet wich is composed of smaller longships (each great lords or the iron island have around a hundred of such ships) wich I would not think number more then 900 MAX, that would mean around a thousand ships for the ironborn against the whole of Westeros, the Redwyne fleet alone numbers a thousand ships that are not warships (five times they're 200 warships), so I would think that the whole of Westeros could with out to much difficulty muster 5 000 thousand smaller ships. Sure the Ironborn would have better sailors and would be more confident fighting on the sea but that would be a five to one advantages in numbers, with my ships being bigger on average, I would say that the odds are fairly well stacked in my favour, victory could be costly but it would be all but assured. 

I can see why there are left alone and I can understand that they a lot like a mosquito, annoying but mostly armless, the problem comes when they always make a bad situation worse, every time conflict happens in Westeros they rise up, pillage a already weaken kingdom, and not only in case of conflict but also in case of a natural disaster situation, so all in all sure, they are not a big problem and could even be a asset (has you pointed out) but in the long run I just dont think that they are good, and just like other pirates, they will need to be broken if they will not change on they're own, something they have not done over thousand of years.

Hmmm on quick check the numbers may be closer than appears (if velyran fleet doesnt exist its about 200)

Redwyne fleet has 200 warships, 150 for the combined royal fleet, westerlands est 60 at most, 50 for the shield islands , 20.or so for the north and prob same for vale etc whereas the wiki give 500 longships or there about for the ironborn!! So numbers suprisingly around the same but 'greenlander' boats usualy  bigger

up close boarding the ironborn will have advantage due to wearing mail and armour like madmen! At a distance manuvering for side ramming etc id give the more natural seamen the  side advantage and the bigger boats will have advantage with missle fire (such as it is for medieval boats)

Overall its pretty open for either side to win a naval conflict

 

As for them being a problem all of goddamn westeros has rebelled or taken sides in its multiple wars ! Singling out the ironborn would be pointless. 

Overall once pushed into the 7 kingdoms  they clearly add more than they take for their brief rebellious periods to be worth not exterminating. They clearly do sow and they do pay the gold price and pay it often despite balons b.s! They clearly trade prpbably fish and iron and mosr importantly  their stolen plunder from essos and beyond!!!!

[Vaegon the dragonless]

48 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Hmmm on quick check the numbers may be closer than appears (if velyran fleet doesnt exist its about 200)

Redwyne fleet has 200 warships, 150 for the combined royal fleet, westerlands est 60 at most, 50 for the shield islands , 20.or so for the north and prob same for vale etc whereas the wiki give 500 longships or there about for the ironborn!! So numbers suprisingly around the same but 'greenlander' boats usualy  bigger

up close boarding the ironborn will have advantage due to wearing mail and armour like madmen! At a distance manuvering for side ramming etc id give the more natural seamen the  side advantage and the bigger boats will have advantage with missle fire (such as it is for medieval boats)

Overall its pretty open for either side to win a naval conflict

 

As for them being a problem all of goddamn westeros has rebelled or taken sides in its multiple wars ! Singling out the ironborn would be pointless. 

Overall once pushed into the 7 kingdoms  they clearly add more than they take for their brief rebellious periods to be worth not exterminating. They clearly do sow and they do pay the gold price and pay it often despite balons b.s! They clearly trade prpbably fish and iron and mosr importantly  their stolen plunder from essos and beyond!!!!

Most of the Ironborn ships are longships, wich are not very useful in ship to ship combat, they were fast and shallow so they could be used in raids, but they are not warship, Aeron chapters shows use what happen when a longship goes against a westerosi warship, it get cut in two with very little resistance. Where as the "greenlander" ships are all warship that are a lot bigger then longships, the ships of the iron fleet , that only number 100, are 3 times bigger then a normal longship and are still smaller, so longships are really outclassed and a non-issue, it would be like using a WW2 destroyer in a modern naval battle. So the only real threat is the iron fleet, wich even by you're calculation would be outnumbred 5 to 1. And height also as another advantage, it is a lot harder to bord a ship if it is bigger then your, so those armoured madmen of the ironborn would still be at a severe disadvantage in a naval battle. And it is not like they have not been defeated at sea numerous time, the Rock, North and Reach all beat them at one time or another to take back they're lands and that was on there own, and most certainly involved some naval action. So in the end I would say that it its really not that close, and that the advantage is clearly in the hands of the rest of Westeros.

The problem I have with the ironborn is not really that they take side in conflict, my problem is that they're entire culture resolves around stealing, raping, enslaving and murdering people, and almost nothing else. In the thousand of years they have made almost no progress and still yearn for this way of life, sure some ironborn are a lot more progressive and pragmatic, they still need to survive after all, but those are the exeptions the Hoares did seem to be on the way to change the iron islands but that stopped after they're death. After that we know that the Greyjoy mostely seem to have waited out the moment where they could go back to reaving. Even in the "modern" time of the series, we see that a few ironborn seem to really want to move on like, Roderick and Baelor Blacktyde, Asha and Theon to a lesser extent, but as a whole they still are pretty happy with going back to the old way, otherwise Balon would have face some resistance from the other lords, since is first rebellion was a complete disaster. The problem is cultural because it is deeply tied to the religion, and it is not only limited to the very upper class since we know that captains can be from humble a beginning and still adhere to that backwords mentality. And if that mentality has not changed after hundred of years then only violence and breaking the ironborn would work, and once they are dealt with, well then the iron and fish will still be there, and the nuisance that the ironborn are all the time, and actual thorn they are in moment of weakness needs to be removed, just like the barbary coast pirates had to be remove for sea trading in the mediterranean to be safe.

[sifth]

I’d make sure each region has some form of representation in Kings Landing. Possibly by having one lord from each region on the small council.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Most of the Ironborn ships are longships, wich are not very useful in ship to ship combat, they were fast and shallow so they could be used in raids, but they are not warship, Aeron chapters shows use what happen when a longship goes against a westerosi warship, it get cut in two with very little resistance. Where as the "greenlander" ships are all warship that are a lot bigger then longships, the ships of the iron fleet , that only number 100, are 3 times bigger then a normal longship and are still smaller, so longships are really outclassed and a non-issue, it would be like using a WW2 destroyer in a modern naval battle. So the only real threat is the iron fleet, wich even by you're calculation would be outnumbred 5 to 1. And height also as another advantage, it is a lot harder to bord a ship if it is bigger then your, so those armoured madmen of the ironborn would still be at a severe disadvantage in a naval battle. And it is not like they have not been defeated at sea numerous time, the Rock, North and Reach all beat them at one time or another to take back they're lands and that was on there own, and most certainly involved some naval action. So in the end I would say that it its really not that close, and that the advantage is clearly in the hands of the rest of Westeros.

The problem I have with the ironborn is not really that they take side in conflict, my problem is that they're entire culture resolves around stealing, raping, enslaving and murdering people, and almost nothing else. In the thousand of years they have made almost no progress and still yearn for this way of life, sure some ironborn are a lot more progressive and pragmatic, they still need to survive after all, but those are the exeptions the Hoares did seem to be on the way to change the iron islands but that stopped after they're death. After that we know that the Greyjoy mostely seem to have waited out the moment where they could go back to reaving. Even in the "modern" time of the series, we see that a few ironborn seem to really want to move on like, Roderick and Baelor Blacktyde, Asha and Theon to a lesser extent, but as a whole they still are pretty happy with going back to the old way, otherwise Balon would have face some resistance from the other lords, since is first rebellion was a complete disaster. The problem is cultural because it is deeply tied to the religion, and it is not only limited to the very upper class since we know that captains can be from humble a beginning and still adhere to that backwords mentality. And if that mentality has not changed after hundred of years then only violence and breaking the ironborn would work, and once they are dealt with, well then the iron and fish will still be there, and the nuisance that the ironborn are all the time, and actual thorn they are in moment of weakness needs to be removed, just like the barbary coast pirates had to be remove for sea trading in the mediterranean to be safe.

The westerosi fleet are a mix of cogs , carracks and galleys  of variois sizes and the ironborn have been engaging them.sucessfully for centuries which tells us all we need to know

 

so while smaller they cant be that much smaller...generaly speaking youd expect the captains to have the common sense to engage ships around their own size  (ie the ironfleet engage the cream of the larger galleys the small longships pick on little carracks  or gang up on them etc)  that said napoelonic warfare had brittish ships of insanely small sizes capturing  french beasts much larger with  ease (plenty of daring though.....the tv show hornblower being based on one such nutcase captain!) 

Another factor is of course the combined fleets of westeros are spread out whereas the ironborn are all compact on those wee islands .....the royal fleet is on the other side of westeros to the redwyne, shield and westerlands (the bulk of the westeros combine navy)  ones meaning should the ironborn strike first (their ships are faster)  and take out say the redwyne,lannister  and shields fleets then theres not much left to oppose them on the other side!!

 

Id say its the other way round...despite all of the greyjoys b.s  the bulk of the ironborn are basicaly seaborne merchents and fishermen.who part time raid in essos! (Selling their rare goods back in westeros which is another economic boon for the kingdom) 

Basicaly the  so called 'gold price ' is paid all the time by them in westeros and often enough to make kings keep 7 kingdoms and not wipe them.out  down to 6!!!

[Vaegon the dragonless]

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

The westerosi fleet are a mix of cogs , carracks and galleys  of variois sizes and the ironborn have been engaging them.sucessfully for centuries which tells us all we need to know

 

so while smaller they cant be that much smaller...generaly speaking youd expect the captains to have the common sense to engage ships around their own size  (ie the ironfleet engage the cream of the larger galleys the small longships pick on little carracks  or gang up on them etc)  that said napoelonic warfare had brittish ships of insanely small sizes capturing  french beasts much larger with  ease (plenty of daring though.....the tv show hornblower being based on one such nutcase captain!) 

Another factor is of course the combined fleets of westeros are spread out whereas the ironborn are all compact on those wee islands .....the royal fleet is on the other side of westeros to the redwyne, shield and westerlands (the bulk of the westeros combine navy)  ones meaning should the ironborn strike first (their ships are faster)  and take out say the redwyne,lannister  and shields fleets then theres not much left to oppose them on the other side!!

When I was talking about a 5 to 1 advantage for Westeros I was only counting the war galley's since the Redwyne fleet of 200 only count those, with a additional 5 times this number in the various other ships, so the advantage in number is still on the westerosi side. And while yes longships might have better success against the rest of the fleet, the galley can turn around and destroy them, I mean that is already what happened during the Greyjoy rebellion, the battle of Fair Isles is only remarkable because Stannis destroyed the whole fleet in one go and with relative ease. Another thing that I disagree is that in my original premise, my goal was to take a proactive role, and to strike first, thus the Ironborn would have the jump on me like they had during the first phase of Greyjoy's rebellion, assembling the fleet would come before any aggressive move from my part, so the initiative would not be in the Ironborn hands. Also the point about the napoleonic war's, the importance of the size of ships is greatly reduced by the canon, after all a good canon shot can still sink a ships, sure having more canon's will make a difference but not the same amount of difference then size during the pre powder warfare. And also those action took place mainly outside of battle has skirmish, but what made the british isles safe was the destuction of the franco-spanish fleet at Trafalgar, and the british ships were not smaller there. Sure the Iron Island could try to skirmish me, but they could not hit a assembled and ready fleet going straight to the heart of the iron island and raising them completely, those tactics would just not work. So I maintain that I would have almost all the advantages going into this fight.

1 hour ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say its the other way round...despite all of the greyjoys b.s  the bulk of the ironborn are basicaly seaborne merchents and fishermen.who part time raid in essos! (Selling their rare goods back in westeros which is another economic boon for the kingdom) 

Basicaly the  so called 'gold price ' is paid all the time by them in westeros and often enough to make kings keep 7 kingdoms and not wipe them.out  down to 6!!!

Will I agree that fishing and trade are important in the iron island economy, it is not a defining train in there culture, all their chapters show us that reaving is front, back and center in they're culture. And the iron islands are repeatedly called the poorest of all the kingdoms, and that supposed economic boon from the reading just does not seem to me like it is a real thing. And sure they paid the gold price all the time, but the problem is not so much that they dont, it is that as soon they have the opportunity they not only stop paying it, they actually go out of they're way to pillage, murder, enslave and rape the rest of the kingdom and break away anyway, so my whole plan is to make sure the most unruly of the kingdoms is no longer unruly and that they stop being even more backward then the already atrocious Westeros.

[astarkchoice]

25 minutes ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

When I was talking about a 5 to 1 advantage for Westeros I was only counting the war galley's since the Redwyne fleet of 200 only count those, with a additional 5 times this number in the various other ships, so the advantage in number is still on the westerosi side. And while yes longships might have better success against the rest of the fleet, the galley can turn around and destroy them, I mean that is already what happened during the Greyjoy rebellion, the battle of Fair Isles is only remarkable because Stannis destroyed the whole fleet in one go and with relative ease. Another thing that I disagree is that in my original premise, my goal was to take a proactive role, and to strike first, thus the Ironborn would have the jump on me like they had during the first phase of Greyjoy's rebellion, assembling the fleet would come before any aggressive move from my part, so the initiative would not be in the Ironborn hands. Also the point about the napoleonic war's, the importance of the size of ships is greatly reduced by the canon, after all a good canon shot can still sink a ships, sure having more canon's will make a difference but not the same amount of difference then size during the pre powder warfare. And also those action took place mainly outside of battle has skirmish, but what made the british isles safe was the destuction of the franco-spanish fleet at Trafalgar, and the british ships were not smaller there. Sure the Iron Island could try to skirmish me, but they could not hit a assembled and ready fleet going straight to the heart of the iron island and raising them completely, those tactics would just not work. So I maintain that I would have almost all the advantages going into this fight.

Will I agree that fishing and trade are important in the iron island economy, it is not a defining train in there culture, all their chapters show us that reaving is front, back and center in they're culture. And the iron islands are repeatedly called the poorest of all the kingdoms, and that supposed economic boon from the reading just does not seem to me like it is a real thing. And sure they paid the gold price all the time, but the problem is not so much that they dont, it is that as soon they have the opportunity they not only stop paying it, they actually go out of they're way to pillage, murder, enslave and rape the rest of the kingdom and break away anyway, so my whole plan is to make sure the most unruly of the kingdoms is no longer unruly and that they stop being even more backward then the already atrocious Westeros.

200 warships the rest are cargo ships man.

Stannis caught the iron fleet in the straights though, a stupid rushed move instead of going the long way round  where theyd have had the open sea , it  angers vic even to the day he got sloppy.

Reaving is what they are supposed to be focused on just as they are supposed to pay the iron price to everything....but they dont. Robert made balon bend the knee and they traded and reaved far east.....and then clearly sold the stolen goods back in westeros 

[Northern Sword]

As a starting point I'd drink and bang whores for a bit. Continue Ol' Roberts legacy, just for continuity sake of course.

Then id look to start improving the economy. Creating a Westeros Bank is important. Encourage trade with the free cities. Grant trading Licenses and such. 

Increase the size of the Crown Lands, doesn't have to be a lot, but farther west, north and south. Absorb Harrenhal into the Crown Lands. I'd find a way to compensate the existing lords who lost land or castles. Either with titles or other lands and castles. After the war, there should be ample empty seats to give away. But consolidating power for Kings Landing is key. 

Create a small Standing army so the Crown had some muscle on stand by. Put them under the command of the White Cloaks at Harrenhal.

Jamie has to go from the Kings Guard. But the West needs a ruler, so like another said, pardon him. Hell I'd even send Cersei back with him, don't want her anywhere near me. 

Build Roads and Infrastructure.

Id start to increase the royal navy's numbers. and put the Valerians back in charge of it.

Depending on what's going on up north. Fund and resettle the gift. Raise a few lords, don't care where in the 7 kingdoms they come from. But they would have to swear to the Starks or the Watch.

The Iron Born... I don't know... They are trouble makers. I'm not into genocide, at least not right off the bat  I'd give them a chance to be productive. But id use the carrot and the stick. Require them to use the Iron Fleet to patrol the Stepstones for the Realm. With an eye to stabilizing the Stepstones for trade to flourish. With their fleet so far from home. they would need to resupply locally. which may help keep them in line, especially with the increasing size of the Royal Fleet near by.

After all that, see if peace can be achieved.

If not, redirect the martial nature of the second kingdoms to an external goal. 

Invade somewhere. I feel like Pentos would be a good target. Land troops. take it over. Send the iron fleet against Bravos. Try and control the narrow sea.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

34 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

200 warships the rest are cargo ships man.

Yes and no, the rest of the Redwyne fleet is composed of trade galley, coggs and other type of transport ship yes, but then again a longships is also a transport ship, it can just go up rivers too, and not a specific warship. Also a transport ship filled with warriors is just as useful as a longship since both will not ram each other. And that is the Redwyne alone, the rest of Westeros will have many many ships that they could use that will be just has good if not better then longship, in addition to the 500 warships (200 by the Redwyne, over 150 from the royal navy, the Lannister, Hightower and shield island fleet combined should be easely another 100, and the rest of Westeros, between the Gulltown fleet and the other small fleets should be another 50, even if small houses like the Mallister or Farman only bring a couple warships those would amount quickly) So yeah the whole of Westeros will bring almost as many WARSHIPS as the ironborn will be able to bring ships, it really is not a fight that the ironborn will ever win.

45 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Stannis caught the iron fleet in the straights though, a stupid rushed move instead of going the long way round  where theyd have had the open sea , it  angers vic even to the day he got sloppy.

Yes but it is not like it would have really made a difference, the open sea would have meant that some ships would have been able to disengage but it would not have change that much. Balon was banking on the fact that the realm would not support Robert, that did not happen, so the Lannister fleet burning was really like Pearl Harbour, sure a nasty hit but in the end meaningless because the opposing force is just overwhelming. So Stannis, victory is impressive for sure, but it is not Trafalgar or Midway, nor a Salamis. Stannis victory was from the beginning assure because in a straight fight the bigger ships always win.

 

51 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Reaving is what they are supposed to be focused on just as they are supposed to pay the iron price to everything....but they dont. Robert made balon bend the knee and they traded and reaved far east.....and then clearly sold the stolen goods back in westeros

Yeah, they still reave, the fact they also pay the gold price just show how much they are blind to there own hypocrisy, they talk a lot about the iron price but can no longer in force it, and they have to do with it, but they always try to go back to it, a bit like post-reconstruction south, where even if they had to stop slavery they did all they could to have some sort of slavery or at least power over the black population. And talking about slavery that is another thing the Ironborn practise, especially sexual slavery, in fact it is one of the main reason why they raid, and since slavery is illegal in Westeros then it is not taxed or traded in Westeros and dont benefit them, aside from the whole inhumanity of it. And since the Ironborn dont seem to be talked alot about in the East, in opposition to other pirates it does seem that people like Euron are a exception and that the majority of Ironborn occasionnaly raid in the East, we here of Balon only doing it once after all. So all in all I think you overestimate by quite some marge the amount of goods the ironborn take, trade with the East is a lot more stable, rationnal and profitable then counting on ironborn reaving.

[Hugorfonics]

Tear down the wall, free the NW. Stabilize the lands beyond with the former crows and dole out all lands to the free folk for farming. Insist they choose their local leadership in their free folk fashion. Do the same with lands formally belonging to the NW.  (Nothing difficult, less then a year)

Send agents to the Citadel, learn the husbandry of Ravens and any dark secrets they may keep, when time is ripe mass arrests and overthrow of the maesters and turn it into a branch of the govt (again, easy. Maybe 5-10 years though)

Wage war on the Eyrie, tear it down if it's a must. Elevate the "wildlings" of the Vale using their form of representative democracy. Encourage the northern wildlings to embrace democracy as opposed to anarchy. (Hard. 2-5 years)

Massive war upon Winterfell and Highgarden. Cut their lands in half. Then halve that. For the most part ignore the other great kingdoms, they can't do much unless backed into a corner after all. Replace old feudal structure with democracy and free folk style anarchy (if must) that has been issued in the North and the Vale. (Very hard. 10-20 years)

Replace the SC with elected leaders encouraging the feudal lords to change their ways. Readjust laws, tax codes. Discover electricity, anti-biotics.

 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Yes and no, the rest of the Redwyne fleet is composed of trade galley, coggs and other type of transport ship yes, but then again a longships is also a transport ship, it can just go up rivers too, and not a specific warship. Also a transport ship filled with warriors is just as useful as a longship since both will not ram each other. And that is the Redwyne alone, the rest of Westeros will have many many ships that they could use that will be just has good if not better then longship, in addition to the 500 warships (200 by the Redwyne, over 150 from the royal navy, the Lannister, Hightower and shield island fleet combined should be easely another 100, and the rest of Westeros, between the Gulltown fleet and the other small fleets should be another 50, even if small houses like the Mallister or Farman only bring a couple warships those would amount quickly) So yeah the whole of Westeros will bring almost as many WARSHIPS as the ironborn will be able to bring ships, it really is not a fight that the ironborn will ever win.

Yes but it is not like it would have really made a difference, the open sea would have meant that some ships would have been able to disengage but it would not have change that much. Balon was banking on the fact that the realm would not support Robert, that did not happen, so the Lannister fleet burning was really like Pearl Harbour, sure a nasty hit but in the end meaningless because the opposing force is just overwhelming. So Stannis, victory is impressive for sure, but it is not Trafalgar or Midway, nor a Salamis. Stannis victory was from the beginning assure because in a straight fight the bigger ships always win.

 

Yeah, they still reave, the fact they also pay the gold price just show how much they are blind to there own hypocrisy, they talk a lot about the iron price but can no longer in force it, and they have to do with it, but they always try to go back to it, a bit like post-reconstruction south, where even if they had to stop slavery they did all they could to have some sort of slavery or at least power over the black population. And talking about slavery that is another thing the Ironborn practise, especially sexual slavery, in fact it is one of the main reason why they raid, and since slavery is illegal in Westeros then it is not taxed or traded in Westeros and dont benefit them, aside from the whole inhumanity of it. And since the Ironborn dont seem to be talked alot about in the East, in opposition to other pirates it does seem that people like Euron are a exception and that the majority of Ironborn occasionnaly raid in the East, we here of Balon only doing it once after all. So all in all I think you overestimate by quite some marge the amount of goods the ironborn take, trade with the East is a lot more stable, rationnal and profitable then counting on ironborn reaving.

No clearly says 200 warships the rest transport and no using transport ships in battle is a horrificly bad idea , you secure the seas 1st  then transport warriors for a reason! The transports are fat and slow (many wont even move without wind for the sails theres no rowing for some!!!)  Very easy to be side  rammed with a warships tailor made ram  for a nice little hole and the longship to row back away while it sinks  ,no weapons like scorpions without a costly time consuming  refit either   , the land warriors may never have been on a boat, the merchant sailors on board  would already  be on warships if theyd choosen that life....they didnt and even as lord you cant make them and expect great results !  the cost of a medieval army is massive  so basicaly you wouldnt put your army into transports in the middle of an actual sea  battle its  a great way to lose a sea battle , your naval  economic trading fleet  and  then also almost all your land force in one day!!! 

The redwyne has 200 , westerlands 50-60 , shield islands 50 and thats pretty much it for that side of westeros , the other side you have the 150 royal fleet, 20 or so vale and northmen and maybe stormlamds too.

BUT If we are talking prime house  velyran era add on another 200 or so  then the numbers become very  imbalanced but minus them its very winnable for either side.

 

Yeah overall their lowscale  reaving and slavery which seems largwly outside of westeros  isnt worth the effort of trying to genocide them esp it risks them  winning a sea battle and  thus costing robert level debts in ship rebuilding

[James Arryn]

7 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Most of the Ironborn ships are longships, wich are not very useful in ship to ship combat, they were fast and shallow so they could be used in raids, but they are not warship, Aeron chapters shows use what happen when a longship goes against a westerosi warship, it get cut in two with very little resistance. Where as the "greenlander" ships are all warship that are a lot bigger then longships, the ships of the iron fleet , that only number 100, are 3 times bigger then a normal longship and are still smaller, so longships are really outclassed and a non-issue, it would be like using a WW2 destroyer in a modern naval battle. So the only real threat is the iron fleet, wich even by you're calculation would be outnumbred 5 to 1. And height also as another advantage, it is a lot harder to bord a ship if it is bigger then your, so those armoured madmen of the ironborn would still be at a severe disadvantage in a naval battle. And it is not like they have not been defeated at sea numerous time, the Rock, North and Reach all beat them at one time or another to take back they're lands and that was on there own, and most certainly involved some naval action. So in the end I would say that it its really not that close, and that the advantage is clearly in the hands of the rest of Westeros.

The problem I have with the ironborn is not really that they take side in conflict, my problem is that they're entire culture resolves around stealing, raping, enslaving and murdering people, and almost nothing else. In the thousand of years they have made almost no progress and still yearn for this way of life, sure some ironborn are a lot more progressive and pragmatic, they still need to survive after all, but those are the exeptions the Hoares did seem to be on the way to change the iron islands but that stopped after they're death. After that we know that the Greyjoy mostely seem to have waited out the moment where they could go back to reaving. Even in the "modern" time of the series, we see that a few ironborn seem to really want to move on like, Roderick and Baelor Blacktyde, Asha and Theon to a lesser extent, but as a whole they still are pretty happy with going back to the old way, otherwise Balon would have face some resistance from the other lords, since is first rebellion was a complete disaster. The problem is cultural because it is deeply tied to the religion, and it is not only limited to the very upper class since we know that captains can be from humble a beginning and still adhere to that backwords mentality. And if that mentality has not changed after hundred of years then only violence and breaking the ironborn would work, and once they are dealt with, well then the iron and fish will still be there, and the nuisance that the ironborn are all the time, and actual thorn they are in moment of weakness needs to be removed, just like the barbary coast pirates had to be remove for sea trading in the mediterranean to be safe.

There are, at least in the real wold, several types of longships. Most were used as warships, especially the Skeid type which had crews of just under a hundred rowers. 

[Vaegon the dragonless]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

No clearly says 200 warships the rest transport and no using transport ships in battle is a horrificly bad idea , you secure the seas 1st  then transport warriors for a reason! The transports are fat and slow (many wont even move without wind for the sails theres no rowing for some!!!)  Very easy to be side  rammed with a warships tailor made ram  for a nice little hole and the longship to row back away while it sinks  ,no weapons like scorpions without a costly time consuming  refit either   , the land warriors may never have been on a boat, the merchant sailors on board  would already  be on warships if theyd choosen that life....they didnt and even as lord you cant make them and expect great results !  the cost of a medieval army is massive  so basicaly you wouldnt put your army into transports in the middle of an actual sea  battle its  a great way to lose a sea battle , your naval  economic trading fleet  and  then also almost all your land force in one day!!! 

The redwyne has 200 , westerlands 50-60 , shield islands 50 and thats pretty much it for that side of westeros , the other side you have the 150 royal fleet, 20 or so vale and northmen and maybe stormlamds too.

BUT If we are talking prime house  velyran era add on another 200 or so  then the numbers become very  imbalanced but minus them its very winnable for either side.

The rest of the ships are still counted has part of the fleet so tvey are not just transport ships, and like a said a longships is also just a transport ship. Also most medieval warships were just that, transport ship filled with soldier, planetos use galley's with rames but that was no longuer the norm in the middle ages, and if it worked for them it must have had some use. And again you seem to bypass the fact that the iron fleet, with the only ships in the iron island that can actually fight the proper westerosi warships ONLY number a 100, so that is the threat and that is the important number, because again, a longship is a transport ship, it does not have a ram so the only way it can figth is by boarding, so using bigger trnasport ships wich constitute the majority of ships in the fleet, wich again in the original scenario would be assemble from all the available fleets. So yeah I maintain that a united Westeros against the Ironborn is still a very one sided fight in favor of Westeros.

15 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Yeah overall their lowscale  reaving and slavery which seems largwly outside of westeros  isnt worth the effort of trying to genocide them esp it risks them  winning a sea battle and  thus costing robert level debts in ship rebuilding

I disagree, for me the long term benefit out way's the con's, and with them gone it means that the whole eastern sea bord can be settle en masse in peace, they're is a reason why the Stony shore is empty when it borders what should be prime fishing grounds. In the end the cost could be high, but again I think that the Ironborn could be defeated at sea without massive casualties on the Westerosi side.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

There are, at least in the real wold, several types of longships. Most were used as warships, especially the Skeid type which had crews of just under a hundred rowers. 

Yes, but the the longships are completely darwfed by the massive galley's that the royal and redwyne fleet use, and they dont have rams. And will yes a longship can be use as a warship, just like a cogg or other merchant ships, when they are up againt galley's of several hundred ores.... And it is my interpretation that the war longships do exist in planetos, those would be the longships of the iron fleet, 3 times the size of a typical long ships, and those are still smaller then the typical westerosi warship.

[astarkchoice]

12 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

The rest of the ships are still counted has part of the fleet so tvey are not just transport ships, and like a said a longships is also just a transport ship. Also most medieval warships were just that, transport ship filled with soldier, planetos use galley's with rames but that was no longuer the norm in the middle ages, and if it worked for them it must have had some use. And again you seem to bypass the fact that the iron fleet, with the only ships in the iron island that can actually fight the proper westerosi warships ONLY number a 100, so that is the threat and that is the important number, because again, a longship is a transport ship, it does not have a ram so the only way it can figth is by boarding, so using bigger trnasport ships wich constitute the majority of ships in the fleet, wich again in the original scenario would be assemble from all the available fleets. So yeah I maintain that a united Westeros against the Ironborn is still a very one sided fight in favor of Westeros.

I disagree, for me the long term benefit out way's the con's, and with them gone it means that the whole eastern sea bord can be settle en masse in peace, they're is a reason why the Stony shore is empty when it borders what should be prime fishing grounds. In the end the cost could be high, but again I think that the Ironborn could be defeated at sea without massive casualties on the Westerosi side.

200 warships the rest are the merchent fleet, they arent built for combat nor did their crews sign up for that, the longships by contrast are all warships ..fast manuverable and with strong prows and rams possibly the larger ones  built with scorpions or catapaults etc filled with experienced marine raiders  ...you cant just put a bunch of troops(esp those whove never been at sea before ie 99% of most medieval.troops)  on a  transport and call it a warship itd slow down the main  warship fleet anyway! Its end up a slow mess all bunched together and needing constant protection by the actual warships...theyd do more  wayyy harm than good esp if fireships get amomg them or in any kind of  a strong breeze.  The  non marine troops on board would get in the actual sailors way., overall theres a reason its never been tried in history..warships engage warships and when the seas are safe then you can let transports cross over with men safely!

The ironborn longships have been boarding and killing transports for as long as theyve existed but The iron fleet is the elite designed to counter the largest ships of the ' greenlanders' we know they are slughtly smaller but big enough to be a counter to them

Overall im not saying westeros cant win at sea (esp as it has before) but that the cost of potentialy losing is huge  , not just in the clossal cost of ship rebuilding and reavers hitting those same harbours est, of foriegn powers smelling weakness and taking say the stepstones...the big issue is your risking a loss in a kingdom held together basicly by string and   kiddy glue!!!!  Minus dragons the north is virtualy impossible to take from the south, dorne is a goddamn nightmare to retake, the vale almsot as bad, the reach cannot be subdued without the strength of at least 2 other regions tag teaming it, the westerlands wealth is dangerously unbalanced and finaly every region has some semi unbrrakable castle!!!

 

Id say to cost of fighting a people to extinction may be high nor will all.your bannermen be happy they are taking on such costs and risks  fpr seemingly no gtlrest gain unless the ironborn where in open  rebellion, attempting genocide agaisnt  them may force a fanatical religious   resistance , overall when they arent in rebellion they seem to be a plus  for westeros if in trade , fast ships for carrying goods, bringing back rare plunder or trade goods from essos or further east or just revaing vs their fellow pirates thus keeping the stepstones westerosi property etc!

Also the stoeny shore isnt empty we specificaly hear its filled with fishermen!

Between the northern fishermen fishing there and the ironborn that 'totaly dont sow' probably doing it too its probably well fished

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Hire a faceless man to get rid of Brandon, Robert, and Lyanna.  Make it look like death from natural causes.