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NFL next- The Superb Owl you hate


DireWolfSpirit
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If it is known that he wants a 5 year deal close to or exceeding 230 mill fully guaranteed contract and teams don't want to pay that and give up two 1st rd picks then it makes total sense to stay away. You'll need those 1st round picks to put cheap talent around him because that contract will be a hinderance. Teams with top 5 or 10 picks aren't just a QB away from the SB, they need lots of help and giving away those top picks would hurt.

Also, teams may have reached out to him to get a feel for what he wants, just because it's not reported doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Only the GM and Lamar would know since there is no agent involved.

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30 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Also, teams may have reached out to him to get a feel for what he wants, just because it's not reported doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Only the GM and Lamar would know since there is no agent involved.

That's the thing though, many QB needy teams were very quick to say they weren't interested in him entirely without knowing exactly what he wants. I have no problem with a team asking him what the price is and quickly saying it's too rich for their blood, but the most obvious landing spot, Atlanta, indicated they had no interest literally minutes after the non-exclusive tag was announced. It's weird and there isn't a great comparison point I can think of because in theory Lamar is the most valuable player to ever be in a situation where there's a clear interest to change teams and no one is biting. 

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17 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

That's the thing though, many QB needy teams were very quick to say they weren't interested in him entirely without knowing exactly what he wants. I have no problem with a team asking him what the price is and quickly saying it's too rich for their blood, but the most obvious landing spot, Atlanta, indicated they had no interest literally minutes after the non-exclusive tag was announced. It's weird and there isn't a great comparison point I can think of because in theory Lamar is the most valuable player to ever be in a situation where there's a clear interest to change teams and no one is biting. 

Weren't there reports of what the Ravens offered out there, so other teams did know what he wouldn't accept.  As to him being the most valuable etc.. There is an argument there also. 50+ million per year guaranteed for 4-5 years and give up two 1st rd picks for a running QB coming off back to back seasons with knee injuries? You and I know we are on opposite sides of this so us discussing this is a moot point.

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47 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Weren't there reports of what the Ravens offered out there, so other teams did know what he wouldn't accept.  

Sure, we have a rough understanding of the deal and it's worse than what Kyler and Wilson got. It would only turn out to be a better deal if everything went perfectly for Lamar. I suspect Burrow and Herbert would have turned down a similar deal. It's harder to say with Hurts. I'm pretty confident though that their organizations won't fuck around with their franchise QBs. I still find it odd the Ravens are doing this (even if you find the risk to be too much) given Lamar is already the best QB the franchise has ever had and he's probably already like the fifth best player in franchise history.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Sure, we have a rough understanding of the deal and it's worse than what Kyler and Wilson got. It would only turn out to be a better deal if everything went perfectly for Lamar. I suspect Burrow and Herbert would have turned down a similar deal. It's harder to say with Hurts. I'm pretty confident though that their organizations won't fuck around with their franchise QBs. I still find it odd the Ravens are doing this (even if you find the risk to be too much) given Lamar is already the best QB the franchise has ever had and he's probably already like the fifth best player in franchise history.

Yeah gonna disagree here also. He could end up being the best QB they ever have, but he could also be a one hit wonder. I had several names in my head when you said this so I did a little digging and found several articles by Baltimore writers and their top 10 didn't have Lamar in them.

R Lewis, J Ogden, J Lewis, E Reed, , T Suggs, M Yanda, J Flacco, J Tucker (yes a kicker) T Heap etc. Even had R Woodson on the list, he played 4-5 seasons there and set the culture and was pro-bowler all but one season. 

Again I think you are basing this off that one great season he had. Other than that one season he has been avg at best. Yes he is a spectacular runner but when you total up the offense he is below avg. Playoffs he is even worse. They are 1-3. He has 3 pass tds and 5 Ints. 1 rushing td and 2 fumbles. His completion % is about 10% lower, 55 I think and his QBR drops 25 points.

I would love to see a top flite WR go there and see how it works but the top FA WR's never go to Baltimore, I never see them on twitter hitting up the Ravens and begging them to sign them, why is that? 

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1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Yeah gonna disagree here also. He could end up being the best QB they ever have, but he could also be a one hit wonder. I had several names in my head when you said this so I did a little digging and found several articles by Baltimore writers and their top 10 didn't have Lamar in them.

R Lewis, J Ogden, J Lewis, E Reed, , T Suggs, M Yanda, J Flacco, J Tucker (yes a kicker) T Heap etc. Even had R Woodson on the list, he played 4-5 seasons there and set the culture and was pro-bowler all but one season. 

R. Lewis, Ogden and Reed are clearly ahead of him. I have Suggs ahead of him as well. None of the others do it for me even if Tucker is probably the best kicker ever. I kind of find it funny that people would have Flacco ahead of him when he was an even bigger flash in the pan. He was a slightly above average QB who got hot for a month.

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Again I think you are basing this off that one great season he had. Other than that one season he has been avg at best. Yes he is a spectacular runner but when you total up the offense he is below avg. Playoffs he is even worse. They are 1-3. He has 3 pass tds and 5 Ints. 1 rushing td and 2 fumbles. His completion % is about 10% lower, 55 I think and his QBR drops 25 points.

I would love to see a top flite WR go there and see how it works but the top FA WR's never go to Baltimore, I never see them on twitter hitting up the Ravens and begging them to sign them, why is that? 

I'm basing it on his first two full seasons as a starter and applying context to the other two. I don't want to be a broken record, but again, just go look at the injuries the team sustained during his third season and the roster was not good last year without him. He had to literally do everything. And don't forget, after the first month he was one of the early leaders for MVP and then the wheels fell off statistically, but the Ravens were still the one seed before he got hurt and they were dog shit afterwards. 

And I'm also not going to overlook that he's working with less than basically all the other top 10 QBs. Even the depleted Packers offense had considerably more talent than the Ravens. Plus they're running a system that many think limits what Jackson can actually do. 

QB wins are not a real stat. That said, I'm not sure if the other top QBs would have a record as good as Lamar's if they played with so little talent and in a system that requires them to literally do everything.

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58 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Makes you wonder if Kaep would have been blackballed had your boys came back in the Owl.

It’s a legit question.  

Harbaugh too.

Jeds famous line with ditching Harbs for a homeless guy was “We don’t lose Super Bowls.” :bang:

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41 minutes ago, Rhom said:

It’s a legit question.  

Harbaugh too.

Jeds famous line with ditching Harbs for a homeless guy was “We don’t lose Super Bowls.” :bang:

Harbs probably wasn't going to be there much longer anyways. That was always a clash of personalities, not a question of what he could do. But going from a top 5 coach to maybe the worst coach in the league is unforgivable. 

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The thing about the Harbaugh/Baalke/Jed thing was that it completely undermined the philosophy they were espousing. You, player, put your body and brain at risk for the betterment of the team. Everything for winning. Play through injuries, leave egos at th door, teak team team. 
 

Unless of course 2 management guys find it a difficult working environment, in which case let’s blow it up. The fucking hypocrisy must have tasted pretty bitter to players wondering about brain damage. 

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20 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

R. Lewis, Ogden and Reed are clearly ahead of him. I have Suggs ahead of him as well. None of the others do it for me even if Tucker is probably the best kicker ever. .

I'm basing it on his first two full seasons as a starter and applying context to the other two. 

So the best kicker ever isn't better than a guy with one great season? Yanda was 10x pro bowler and member of the all decade team and he isn't better? 

His first two full seasons as a starter, 

Avg  Pass yds 2942  Pass tds 31    Rush yds 1105  Rush tds 7

So 4050 yds and 38 total tds of offense when added together.  So because of those two above avg seasons we ignore the next two seasons?

Next two seasons 

Avg pass yds  2552   Pass tds  16.5    Rush yds 765   Rush tds 2.5

3317 yds of offense and total 19 tds.  Why do you want to only look at the good early seasons and not the recent work? When do knees on running QB's  coming off back to back injuries get better with age, context does matter right?   

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2 hours ago, dbunting said:

3317 yds of offense and total 19 tds.  Why do you want to only look at the good early seasons and not the recent work? When do knees on running QB's  coming off back to back injuries get better with age, context does matter right?   

I have addressed the two down seasons repeatedly. He wasn't good in '21, but you cannot ignore that it's a problem when a running team loses all three of their running backs before the season and the general injury hell the team was in. This last year was up and down, but at times he certainly showed similar form to how he played in '19 and '20. And again, what other top end QB would thrive on this Ravens team that's devoid of talent. 

One other thing to add, the Ravens are running an offense that's not going to produce a ton of passing yards. I checked and since '19 the Ravens have consistently been in the top quartile for time of possession and rushing attempts while being in the bottom half in passing attempts and at times near the bottom of passing attempts of over 20 and 40 yards. They don't attack vertically which on the one hand makes sense because they don't have real deep threats, but on the other doesn't considering one of Lamar's strengths coming out of college was his deep ball. So I do think his stats would go up with real weapons and a scheme that is more aggressive. 

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The Ravens have consistently prioritized spending on defense over offense.  They've done it Lamar's entire tenure, and well before.  During Jackson's time, they've had maybe the 3rd or 4th best TE in Andrews, and an OK (but not great) O line, mediocre running backs and bottom of the league receivers.  Jackson is basically the only top 10 quarterback where his team has taken this approach.  The fact that his offenses have been consistently productive when he's the starter is a very impressive achievement.  It is absolutely fair to ask how good a guy like Allen or Rodgers would be with that offense around them.  My suspicion is not nearly as good as we consider normal for them (and not as good as Jackson). 

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3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

The Ravens have consistently prioritized spending on defense over offense.  They've done it Lamar's entire tenure, and well before.  During Jackson's time, they've had maybe the 3rd or 4th best TE in Andrews, and an OK (but not great) O line, mediocre running backs and bottom of the league receivers.  Jackson is basically the only top 10 quarterback where his team has taken this approach.  The fact that his offenses have been consistently productive when he's the starter is a very impressive achievement.  It is absolutely fair to ask how good a guy like Allen or Rodgers would be with that offense around them.  My suspicion is not nearly as good as we consider normal for them (and not as good as Jackson). 

I don't think so, at least not to the extent you do. A great QB elevates his WR's. The only great WR Brady ever had was Moss, the rest were only good when playing with Brady and below avg elsewhere. Rodgers has made plenty of mediocre WR's look legit.

The one thing I'll keep going back to is why aren't we seeing the Ravens show up on top flight WR list of trade destinations or top FA wanting to play with Jackson? Make me understand why the top WR's don't want to play with him and maybe I'll see the light. 

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5 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I don't think so, at least not to the extent you do. A great QB elevates his WR's. The only great WR Brady ever had was Moss, the rest were only good when playing with Brady and below avg elsewhere. Rodgers has made plenty of mediocre WR's look legit.

Uhh, that's a gross overstatement, there were plenty of years when Brady's receiving corps was excellent, although there were some poor years as well.  It's a mixed bag.  Rodgers went to shit this year when the Packers traded Adams.  And the GB receiving corps this year was still better than what Jackson had in Baltimore. 

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The one thing I'll keep going back to is why aren't we seeing the Ravens show up on top flight WR list of trade destinations or top FA wanting to play with Jackson? Make me understand why the top WR's don't want to play with him and maybe I'll see the light. 

Because the Ravens want to be a running centric team, so you aren't going to get nearly as many targets (and therefore stats) as you would else.  Also because the Ravens never sign big name receivers.  The last one was...Boldin in 2010 (and he wasn't a WR1 in Arizona). 

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