"I am the Lord of Winterfell!" - Jon Snow's Unresolved Psychological Baggage

[Craving Peaches]

Following on from the (less serious) discussion in 'Jon Snow is Insane' as well as the (more serious) discussion in 'Jon's Coming Battle with Ramsay', I would like to invite members of this esteemed forum to discuss Jon's psyche and mental-well being (excluding him being stabbed by Traitors & Co., because we all know how that would feel). Some points to consider:

• Jon feels insecure about being a bastard
• Jon feels guilty for wanting Winterfell
• Jon felt he had to distance himself from his friends
• Jon feels guilty about his relationship with Ygritte

Some relevant quotes (in spoiler box for tidiness not because they are spoilers):

Spoiler

Quote

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

Quote

"I'll see that he's more careful," Grenn promised, "and I'll clout him if he's not." He hesitated. "My lord, will you sup with us? Owen, shove over and make room for Jon."

Jon wanted nothing more. No, he had to tell himself, those days are gone. The realization twisted in his belly like a knife. They had chosen him to rule. The Wall was his, and their lives were his as well. A lord may love the men that he commands, he could hear his lord father saying, but he cannot be a friend to them. One day he may need to sit in judgment on them, or send them forth to die. "Another day," the lord commander lied. "Edd, best see to your own supper. I have work to finish."

Quote

Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom.

Suddenly he realized that the table had fallen silent, and they were all looking at him. He felt the tears begin to well behind his eyes. He pushed himself to his feet.

Quote

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch.

Quote

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade.

[the trees have eyes]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Jon's psyche and mental-well being

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Pretty good as it happens.  The sibling rivalry was never an issue and although there was coldness from Catelyn as "the wicked step-mother" the relationship with Ned was one of warmth.  I can't help but contrast Jon's joining the watch with "Megxit" and Harry's unresolved issues with his brother and father (and the impact of the absence of his mother during his adolescence).

It's a bit colder on The Wall than California but Jon found his place and both a cause / duty and surrogate family.   Regrets over Ygritte, Qhorin or the burden of leadership are pretty natural and he knows he had to distance himself from his friends - "Kill the boy and let the man be born" (sic).  Ghost is a source of companionship and an anchor. He's managing it all pretty well until you know what.

[Curled Finger]

There is an interesting discussion going about the warging magic of the Stark Kids, which I cannot help but include Jon in.  Now, this here weird magic courses through Jon's veins as I expect some of that there weird fire magic does as well on top of them there lousy teenage hormones.  I think this kid is simply suffering what all teenagers do, biological insanity.  He will eventually grow out of it...well, the hormonal, existential part anyway.  What this magic will do to or for him we can only pray about. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Pretty good as it happens.  The sibling rivalry was never an issue and although there was coldness from Catelyn as "the wicked step-mother" the relationship with Ned was one of warmth.  I can't help but contrast Jon's joining the watch with "Megxit" and Harry's unresolved issues with his brother and father (and the impact of the absence of his mother during his adolescence).

It's a bit colder on The Wall than California but Jon found his place and both a cause / duty and surrogate family.   Regrets over Ygritte, Qhorin or the burden of leadership are pretty natural and he knows he had to distance himself from his friends - "Kill the boy and let the man be born" (sic).  Ghost is a source of companionship and an anchor. He's managing it all pretty well until you know what.

I agree. I think these questions, or rather the issues listed would fit better n a thread back in 2000 (post ASoS, pre ADwD) or thereabouts. Meaning, while some of these issues were more in evidence, earlier on when Jon was 14 and still trying to find his place, as it were.  It seems that not only these issues are fairly normal for teenagers, but also that he’s dealt w/ them fairly well. 
 

Lastly, the last paragraph of the last quote, when Jon is pondering the offer Stannis made, is more about his awakening warg abilities… the ‘hunger inside’. And not only this but also an acknowledgement and understanding of what really matters. 
 

“He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought. It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. “Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”
He had his answer then. 

 

[LongRider]

Jon has grown up from his teenage angst and he is beginning to understand the bigger picture.  This creates new challenges and trying to bring the message of the dangers and of finding solutions to the Watch is very difficult.  One might call it murder.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I can't help but contrast Jon's joining the watch with "Megxit" and Harry's unresolved issues with his brother and father (and the impact of the absence of his mother during his adolescence).

Truth is stranger than fiction, it is known...

Jon's rivalry with Robb is natural, I think. There's more of the north in Jon, and his wolf is bigger, strong, white as snow - a wolf fit for a King of Winter. So, more of the south in Robb - his nature is warmer, he's not snow, he even melts snowflakes. They're not just rivals for high office, they represent opposing forces. Which is better for Winterfell? We don't know yet.

[frenin]

Jon likes Ygritte's hair because it reminds him of Cat, it is known.

A boy so desperate for the acceptance and approval of a woman who wasn't even his own mother, no matter how much he despaired for her to be, we all know those feelings turn weirdly psychosexual real soon.

[Bowen 747]

Jon obviously has a lot of psychological baggage.  He has a nasty temper and he is a very emotional man.  He's quick to anger but slow in thinking.  The best analysis of Jon's future mental issues is the thread by Damsel in Distress.  The chances of Jon going insane is the same as that of every other Targaryen male if he is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Only Targaryen males have gone insane in the past. 

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The best analysis of Jon's future mental issues is the thread by Damsel in Distress. 

No it's not.

4 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Only Targaryen males have gone insane in the past.

I don't think so.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

No it's not.

I don't think so.

I can’t think of any Targaryen females that were insane. Other than maybe Helaena, but similarly to Catelyn, her insanity came from severely traumatic events in her life. Visenya wasn’t insane but she was definitely not a good person, much like her son Maegor.

 

but you are right, it’s not a good analysis at all. It’s pretty asinine 

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Other than maybe Helaena, but similarly to Catelyn

Yes, but they count Lysa and Catelyn as insane in the 'Tully Madness' thread, so they should apply their own warped standards evenly, in which case Helaena is insane and so the claim that only male Targaryens have gone insane is not true. Though this might be too much to ask for some people.

[the trees have eyes]

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Truth is stranger than fiction, it is known...

Jon's rivalry with Robb is natural, I think. There's more of the north in Jon, and his wolf is bigger, strong, white as snow - a wolf fit for a King of Winter. So, more of the south in Robb - his nature is warmer, he's not snow, he even melts snowflakes. They're not just rivals for high office, they represent opposing forces. Which is better for Winterfell? We don't know yet.

Whatever the symbolism their relationship was close rather than one of sibling rivalry to the extent that Robb very likely legitimised Jon and made him his heir.  Contrast that with the Barratheon and Greyjoy brothers - or with Domeric Bolton and Ramsay Snow!!

Only when he believes all his brothers dead is Jon tempted by the offer of WF and even then he says no.  He never reaches for it or plots for it or considers it, however idly.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Whatever the symbolism their relationship was close rather than one of sibling rivalry to the extent that Robb very likely legitimised Jon and made him his heir.  Contrast that with the Barratheon and Greyjoy brothers - or with Domeric Bolton and Ramsay Snow!!

Only when he believes all his brothers dead is Jon tempted by the offer of WF and even then he says no.  He never reaches for it or plots for it or considers it, however idly.

True, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Nevertheless, a Jon presidency would be a different thing to a Robb presidency.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

True, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Nevertheless, a Jon presidency would be a different thing to a Robb presidency.

I’m not so sure. Jon and Robb have different temperaments, but they were brought up by Ned, learned everything they know from the same teachers - not just Ned but Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, and everyone else at Winterfell. 

[The Commentator]

Most people in the north will find Jon unacceptable. More unacceptable than Ramsay because Jon broke his vows to the watch.  
 

Jon’s childhood is not what I would call traumatic. He had it better than the average child in the kingdom.  It’s not the environment but Jon himself who has inner problems. Wanting Winterfell is not a bad fantasy as long as he doesn’t act on it. His anger management is very poor. He doesn’t have the temperament to administer and govern. The way he reacted to Thorne shows he has a very dangerous temper. 

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

Most people in the north will find Jon unacceptable. More unacceptable than Ramsay because Jon broke his vows to the watch.  

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

[SeanF]

Jon was actually dealt a pretty bad hand by the Starks.

A big motivating factor for him to join the Watch was his belief that he would be destitute before long.  When it came to it, Catleyn was in a position to throw him out, in Ned's absence, and Ned had made no provision for him.  The Watch was a shithole, a penal colony, where 90% of recruits joined up only as an alternative to execution or starvation.  The likelihood was that Jon would die at a young age, on a wildling's axe, never having married, fathered children, or held lands.

It is no thanks to either Ned or Catelyn that he survived and became Lord Commander.

On the way, he has to cope with the guilt of having betrayed Ygritte.  He had no option but to do so, given his mission, but he was still betraying a woman he loved, and who loved him.  He knew well, that his actions were likely to result in death for her and her people.  And, he still wonders if he shot the arrow that killed her.

On top of that, he has to cope with Stannis, the Boltons, the wildlings, and the threat from the North. 

So, it's not at all surprising that he has a ton of psychological baggage,  No doubt made worse by his stabbing, and (presumably) his discovery that Ned was not his father, and that he has a claim to the Iron Throne.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not so sure. Jon and Robb have different temperaments, but they were brought up by Ned, learned everything they know from the same teachers - not just Ned but Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, and everyone else at Winterfell. 

Sure, but doesn't it interest you that they are coded for the seasons? This is not some subtle attack on Jon. He might actually be better at the winter stuff than Robb.

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sure, but doesn't it interest you that they are coded for the seasons? This is not some subtle attack on Jon. He might actually be better at the winter stuff than Robb.

I never thought it was a subtle attack on Jon… why should I? 
And yes, sure, it is interesting but imo for reasons other than their ruling styles; in part b/c Robb is dead and we’ll never really see him ruling. That said, it always makes me sad when Cat talks about the knights of summer and how they’re not going to last w/o realising how she’s also talking about Robb as well.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

4 hours ago, The Commentator said:

Most people in the north will find Jon unacceptable. More unacceptable than Ramsay because Jon broke his vows to the watch.  
 

Jon’s childhood is not what I would call traumatic. He had it better than the average child in the kingdom.  It’s not the environment but Jon himself who has inner problems. Wanting Winterfell is not a bad fantasy as long as he doesn’t act on it. His anger management is very poor. He doesn’t have the temperament to administer and govern. The way he reacted to Thorne shows he has a very dangerous temper. 

First off, compared to Ramsay and Roose he is a god emperor on earth as a ruler. And he is a teenager who was raised by a good father. He will grow up and become a better man. Ramsay is a complete monster who, if allowed, would run the North into the ground. If he isn’t assassinated by a northern lord first. Roose is slightly more cunning. He at least is aware of the fact that the land he rules, absolutely loathes him, and he doesn’t have the power to outright pacify them. But he will lose. Because the RW tanked his reputation. 
 

and you want to talk about acting with emotion? Bowen Marsh, a grown ass man, reacted violently due to his outright bigotry, and he and his sycophants murdered Jon, their rightful Lord Commander for doing his damn job. If Marsh had his way, the wildlings would’ve joined the army of the dead by now and the NW would be even more screwed.