Tywin is the most overrated character

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

His rule as Aerys’ Hand is really the only positive thing he did. In that it was successful. 
 

The Reyne-Tarbeck Massacre, the Sacking of Kings Landing, The murder of Elia and her children, and Red Wedding are painted as if they are some brilliant master strokes by a genius but in the long run, they’ve crippled House Lannister. When you build your reputation through fear, your power ends when people stop fearing you. None of his children inspire anything like that. It’s his failure to raise an heir like that that will lead to House Lannister’s downfall.

Because now all of Westeros hates the Lannisters, from Dorne to The Wall. Even over in Essos, Tyrion wants to end his house, and he’ll have Daenerys to help him. And the fact he didn’t see that, makes him look like a completely short sided idiot.

And what’s to speak of him militarily? He routinely got thrashed by Robb and had to resort to barbaric and underhanded tactics to kill Robb. He did nothing until the end of the Rebellion. He simply overwhelmed the Reyne’s and Tarbecks. And he only saved Kings Landing because Edmure fucked up, and Tyrion caused Stannis’ forces significant harm.

He was a needlessly cruel, proud, and emotional man, who struck outward whenever his pride was wounded. Which was wounded far too easily. Simply put, he was and idiot, and he has probably doomed his house to extinction or mediocrity.

[Craving Peaches]

Agree completely. I've said this multiple times, Tywin only 'won' the War of the Five Kings through luck, and not even luck that he created.

1. If Cersei's totally luck based plan with the boar hadn't killed Robert, he'd be found breaking the King's Peace.

2. If Stannis, Renly and Robb had decided to fight the Lannisters, their mutual enemy whom they all presumably dislike more than each other, first, he'd be finished.

3. If Renly hadn't died he was in trouble.

4. If Theon hadn't managed to take Winterfell he'd have a harder time dislodging Robb.

[Nevets]

40 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Agree completely. I've said this multiple times, Tywin only 'won' the War of the Five Kings through luck, and not even luck that he created.

1. If Cersei's totally luck based plan with the boar hadn't killed Robert, he'd be found breaking the King's Peace.

2. If Stannis, Renly and Robb had decided to fight the Lannisters, their mutual enemy whom they all presumably dislike more than each other, first, he'd be finished.

3. If Renly hadn't died he was in trouble.

4. If Theon hadn't managed to take Winterfell he'd have a harder time dislodging Robb.

1. Even Ned knew he couldn't prove anything against Tywin, which is why he sent troops after Clegane, and only Clegane.  And Ned's more decisive than Robert.  Robert wasn't going to do shit in the absence of overt action, which Tywin deliberately avoided until after Robert's death.  Tywin knew what Robert would and wouldn't do and planned accordingly.

2. Stannis, Robb, and Renly joining forces?  That was never going to happen.  Stannis and Renly couldn't collaborate if their lives depended on it (probably literally).  And Tywin knew it.  And once Robb declared independence, that made joining up with either Baratheon less likely.

3. If Renly hadn't died, the brothers might have fought each other as much as the Lannisters.  And while Renly had great military power, he had a weak claim to the throne.

In the end, his side did win, decisively.  Whether he would have otherwise is impossible to say.  Counterfactuals are difficult enough in real life.  In fiction, forget it.  If he hadn't been killed by his son, an entirely unforseeable event, he would still be in power.  Yes, he is a miserable human being, but I don't think he is overrated; at least not wildly so.  He knew his business.  Unforseen events did him in.

[Loose Bolt]

Tywin was also lucky when Ironborn, whose main motivation is gain gold and sex slaves, invade huge swamp without any gold or available women. Instead of invading Lannisport major city full of gold and a many young women.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

1. Even Ned knew he couldn't prove anything against Tywin, which is why he sent troops after Clegane, and only Clegane.  And Ned's more decisive than Robert.  Robert wasn't going to do shit in the absence of overt action, which Tywin deliberately avoided until after Robert's death.  Tywin knew what Robert would and wouldn't do and planned accordingly.

Yes, but if Cersei doesn't luck out with her plan, then Ned tells Robert about the incest when he gets back. Everyone would jump at the opportunity to attack the Lannisters. Ned says Robert loves nothing more than making war on rebel lords who defy him. Dorne hates the Lannisters and would sieze the chance. Ned would join Robert in fighting the Lannisters. So would the Riverlands whom the Lannisters attacked. Balon would take the opportunity to raid. The Tyrells would proably join if Robert married Maragery. If Cersei didn't get really lucky and kill Robert Tywin was done for.

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

2. Stannis, Robb, and Renly joining forces?  That was never going to happen.  Stannis and Renly couldn't collaborate if their lives depended on it (probably literally).  And Tywin knew it.  And once Robb declared independence, that made joining up with either Baratheon less likely.

They all dislike the Lannisters more than they dislike each other. The Lannisters killed Robb's father. Renly thinks the Lannisters are trying to kill him. Stannis thinks the Lannisters killed the previous hand of the king and cuckolded his brother. I am not saying that they are going to all team up permanently with each other but I don't think a temporary truce until the Lannisters are dealt with is that far outside of the realm of possibility. Even an agreement not to attack each other while they attack the Lannisters.

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

3. If Renly hadn't died, the brothers might have fought each other as much as the Lannisters.  And while Renly had great military power, he had a weak claim to the throne.

If Renly hadn't died I think it's pretty safe to say Stannis was going to lose and have to go back to Dragonstone and lick his wounds at best. And the main thing with Renly not dying is that it means the Tyrells don't join the Lannisters. So now Tywin has to deal with Robb, Renly (and Stannis) with only ~20,000 men. And King's Landing will also still be cut off from food, making it more likely to revolt against Lannister rule.

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Unforseen events did him in.

Unforeseen events also let him win in the first place. No one (aside from Stannis et al) expected Renly to die. Cersei and Tyrion were pleasantly surprised Stannis and Renly were fighting each other. No one saw Theon capturing Winterfell. And Cersei got really lucky killing Robert. All of these events were events Tywin had no hand in bringing to pass and luck dependant.

[astarkchoice]

I think too often this forum is filled with extremes..he was a bad father but politicaly and militarily he was at worst competent and at best excellent.

He takes a house literaly being laughed at and utterly puts the wealthy westerlands  back under his utter control until the point where theres no feasible rival at all.  He moved fast and blitzkrieged the reyne tarbecks and set an example that would never be forgotten.  Kills it as hand and goes home  and has also established elite royal lannister  to ensure his family l's person are safe . Has his daughter married into the royal family and seemingly ended all targ  competiton  for that throne.

Now war of 5 kings start hes in a shitty spot due  to how the families are aligned esp as aerys putting  jamie into kingsguard and no one wanting tyrion as a son in law means hes got the westerlands alone and whatever he can buy or wrestle outta the crownlands.

Now like all characters he has luck but lets not forget his bad luck  ... hes facing down what seems like 2 sides with both over 100k troops each (renly+ stannis with stormlamds and reach and robb with roverlands, vale and north) then cersei literaly allows ned stark to be killed and arya to slip away! Teenage Robb turns out to be a military prodigy and his  brilliant opening moves (we cant shit on tywin here give robb his props this was a very clever opening series of moves) hands the westerlands 2 big losses (and one near loss with roose) followed by another due to robbs magic wolf finding a plot fortunate secret path!!!! 

His campaign in the riverlands is a brillant reading of his opp,  thinning out the defences to be shattered then besieges the riverlords meanwhile he takes a strategic position at harrenhall (to ambush a renly/stanis siege of kl OR  block vale/north reinforcements comming south and is a strong defence position overall. He also we assume begins to put out political feelers 

Now he has some luck but to be fair so do his opponents who begin in the much stronger position than him too, he capitailzes  on mistakes quickly and finds allys and ends up for a horribly bad start to a position where a bolton/tyrell/frey lannister dynasty is being set up to seemingly dominate westeros for at least a generation or so....overall youd have to be a complete hater to not admit he plays the game well.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

Tywin was also lucky when Ironborn, whose main motivation is gain gold and sex slaves, invade huge swamp without any gold or available women. Instead of invading Lannisport major city full of gold and a many young women.

But thats been covered to death  , it wasnt lucky balons choice had +s  and -ves

He wants the ironborn to have what they once did and that includes big lumps of the north that they held for generations before.

As far as hes aware once moat caitin is held no force can move north through it thus the north is left without its leadership and best men with what remains  so spead out over such vast distances thus  any resistance  by  medieval society to  seaborne invaders would be very tricky if not impossible

By contrast the westerlands has  a navy to defend it (euron caught them be suprise last time)  , is a much smaller area for resistance to quickly concentrate forces to resist  , has impregnable  casterly rock near the coast for forces to sally out from , enough gold  safely in the impregnable rock to hire sellsails to fuck with their invasion  etc etc 

 

The real stupid part on balon is dismissing theon so easily...his knowledge was key to the.north, the winterfell raid could have been handled smartly with asha and balon etc on board

[Angel Eyes]

Something I don't understand about Tywin: if he doesn't want Tyrion to inherit and knows Tyrion can at least use his brain, why did he never send him to the Citadel? It's cheaper than wasting his money on prostitutes (not that Tywin doesn't, but his public disdain of Tyrion's habits is undermined by the fact he never tries to stop giving him the means to indulge) and it isn't like wealthy scions aren't sent to the Citadel at a young age; Maester Aemon was sent to Oldtown at 9.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Something I don't understand about Tywin: if he doesn't want Tyrion to inherit and knows Tyrion can at least use his brain, why did he never send him to the Citadel? It's cheaper than wasting his money on prostitutes (not that Tywin doesn't, but his public disdain of Tyrion's habits is undermined by the fact he never tries to stop giving him the means to indulge) and it isn't like wealthy scions aren't sent to the Citadel at a young age; Maester Aemon was sent to Oldtown at 9.

Most likely because he couldn't stand the idea of a Lannister of Casterly Rock, and his own blood, to become a servant. Similar to why Randyll Tarly couldn't stand the idea of Sam becoming a maester. 

[astarkchoice]

28 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Most likely because he couldn't stand the idea of a Lannister of Casterly Rock, and his own blood, to become a servant. Similar to why Randyll Tarly couldn't stand the idea of Sam becoming a maester. 

He also tried to secure marriage alliances with tyrion for his house too. Even a link to a weak house is better than nothing

[James Arryn]

Well, he certainly wasn’t hated in the West. 

[astarkchoice]

37 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Well, he certainly wasn’t hated in the West. 

This

3itd be interesting to see a.pov from the westerlands.

Based on tyrions 1st wife story with jamie crime was not tolerated, jamie felt it was insulting criminals so close to home and personaly went to hunt them down. We know tywin formed an elite guard for his family and the lannisport guards are some of the best trained in all westeros. Tywin would have helped oversee the rebuilding of lannisport after the ironborn burnt it too.

They also probably still loaned out gold to bannermen as tywins dad did  boosting the  economy.... just with prompt payback and no mockery this time!

[The Commentator]

No, Tyrion is. 

[sifth]

I mean Balon attacking the north BEFORE asking for an alliance with the Lannisters might be the luckiest thing to happen in the series, for him. The only thing more lucky for him is Stannis using Mel to get rid of Renly, but being an idiot and not using her when he faced the Lannisters. Rather funny how great and smart characters, become idiots, when the plot needs them to.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Well, he certainly wasn’t hated in the West. 

True. The Westerlands probably loved him. The North, most of the Riverlands, and Dorne HATE him. The Vale, Reach, and Stormlands absolutely don’t trust him and will and do turn on the Lannisters. And if Cersei does anything to the Tyrells they’ll easily turn to hating them as well. The only true loyalty Tywin bought for his house was in the Westerlands. And even then, we really don’t know how many of the houses just fear Tywin, and aren’t loyal to him. I suspect we’ll find out once Cersei flees Kings Landing from fAegon.

[astarkchoice]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Agree completely. I've said this multiple times, Tywin only 'won' the War of the Five Kings through luck, and not even luck that he created.

1. If Cersei's totally luck based plan with the boar hadn't killed Robert, he'd be found breaking the King's Peace.

2. If Stannis, Renly and Robb had decided to fight the Lannisters, their mutual enemy whom they all presumably dislike more than each other, first, he'd be finished.

3. If Renly hadn't died he was in trouble.

4. If Theon hadn't managed to take Winterfell he'd have a harder time dislodging Robb.

1) robert is an out of shape drunk and cersei has pycelle and lancel right there to end him (jamie and possibly even trant) , the boar was lucky but it was always comming one way or another as hes surrounded by lannister/lannister allies! So she can spray and pray with crappy plans til one kills him.  

Besides had robert been alive  after the hunt hed have been the same racked with paralysis indecisive poor slob  who ended up having poor lady executed ,torn between best pal and wife /in laws! 

2) that unfortunatly was handled due to pycelle ensuring no letters got from ned to stannis , then of course renly refuses to hand the reigns  to stannis .....and robb bizzarely doesnt contact either until much later.

3)true but for every magic assasin helpimg him he also had magic wolves finding impossible paths to smash his 2nd force in the westerlands....so luck gave with one hand took with another

4) thats really robbs 'good luck'  that balon was too stupid to see theons real.worth otherwise the ironborn invasion of the north woulda hit far harder, winterfell still would have fallen

[James Arryn]

37 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

True. The Westerlands probably loved him. The North, most of the Riverlands, and Dorne HATE him. The Vale, Reach, and Stormlands absolutely don’t trust him and will and do turn on the Lannisters. And if Cersei does anything to the Tyrells they’ll easily turn to hating them as well. The only true loyalty Tywin bought for his house was in the Westerlands. And even then, we really don’t know how many of the houses just fear Tywin, and aren’t loyal to him. I suspect we’ll find out once Cersei flees Kings Landing from fAegon.

Oh, I agree fear plays a role. But that’s true for any lord. Remember what a lord is: someone who took over an area through violence and continues to rule through violence or the threat of violence. No one wants to be beholden to a higher lord who takes from you at will, who can pretty much do with you and yours as he wants, and occasionally makes you or your sons go and fight and potentially die for their own reasons that mostly otherwise don’t affect you. 
 

That said GRRM does seem to portray a world where the same houses ruling for thousands of years is the norm, so already we’re seeing variance with ~ realism. And too he does seem to portray a kind of affinity/loyalty towards the ruling houses, but it’s important to note that we almost exclusively read about these things from the perspective of other nobility. Dunk is an exception, but Dunk is raised by someone very much enthralled by the doings of the higher ups, so who knows how representative he is. Anyways, my point is this: Jon Arryn reacted to the Graftons not supporting his rebellion with fire and sword. So did Hoster Tully. And no one mentions these events like they are remarkable, so generally speaking the feudal hierarchy is still do as you’re told or else.
 

Tywin’s whole bag suggests sociopathy or w/e but by and large he is just continuing the norm only leaning into it more. The nobility of other regions at least have a healthy respect for him, and he doesn’t really care what the commoners of the Vale think of him. The scenarios where their opinion would make the slightest difference to him are hard to fathom. Now the Ref Wedding is trickier because it ~ breaks a rule that the nobility cate about, something needed to be able to conduct business. But Tywin gets off on a technicality, in that he was not directly involved. If you find yourself thinking that the technicality doesn’t really matter, I’d ask how hated you think Wyman Manderly will/would be without the cannibal aspect. But yeah, generally fear is part of the feudal order. 
 

edit: to me the most remarkable thing about Tywin’s story isn’t Tywin, it’s his father. He was a true exception. And even more unlikely is a scenario where he’s giving away free money and being ridiculed by the recipients. That just makes so little sense to me. Imagine being those lords, getting your ~ taxes relieved AND being given interest free loans and instead of keeping the money train running, you’re…fucking with the source? Why? What possible gain? Even if you are eventually planning on usurping their power…a very tricky proposition even without accounting for the IT, why would you antagonize the person funding your eventual coup in the meantime? To me it assumes a much more collegiate atmosphere than feudal dynamics allow for…it’s a lot like the mafia, really, same dynamics, protection money, etc. Imagine a Don giving away the family stash? And then imagine his underlings making public jokes about it? Someone’s gonna die, someone should already have died. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

1) robert is an out of shape drunk and cersei has pycelle and lancel right there to end him (jamie and possibly even trant) , the boar was lucky but it was always comming one way or another as hes surrounded by lannister/lannister allies! So she can spray and pray with crappy plans til one kills him.  

Fair enough, but she lucked out when one killed him right as her ugly secret which would lead to the ruin of her house was about to be revealed. So Tywin lucked out too.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

2) that unfortunatly was handled due to pycelle ensuring no letters got from ned to stannis , then of course renly refuses to hand the reigns  to stannis .....and robb bizzarely doesnt contact either until much later.

They still could have teamed up anyway, Pycelle's interference is not the deciding factor, and Tywin had nothing to do with any of this. He got lucky.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

3)true but for every magic assasin helpimg him he also had magic wolves finding impossible paths to smash his 2nd force in the westerlands....so luck gave with one hand took with another

I think the shadow assassin was much more of a lucky boon than the wolf. No Shadow Assassin means Tywin has to deal with 100,000 more troops and doesn't have the Tyrells help, and it also means there is still no food going to the Capital.

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

4) thats really robbs 'good luck'  that balon was too stupid to see theons real.worth otherwise the ironborn invasion of the north woulda hit far harder, winterfell still would have fallen

It is a luck based event that helps Tywin which Tywin again had no influence or control over.

[astarkchoice]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Fair enough, but she lucked out when one killed him right as her ugly secret which would lead to the ruin of her house was about to be revealed. So Tywin lucked out too.

They still could have teamed up anyway, Pycelle's interference is not the deciding factor, and Tywin had nothing to do with any of this. He got lucky.

I think the shadow assassin was much more of a lucky boon than the wolf. Shadow Assassin means Tywin has to deal with 100,000 more troops and doesn't have the Tyrells help, and it also means there is still no food going to the Capital.

It is a luck based event that helps Tywin which Tywin again had no influence or control over.

1) id not really count it as luck as shes in a position to kill him by more reliable ways at will anyway ,  picking death by drunken boar was just silly esp  when robert wont stop chugging wine from lancel and pycelle are right there with every posion imaginable ...hed even be the ome doing the autopsy!!!!

 

2) its not really lucky that renly and stannis didnt combine its  hardly a fluke  just various factors that  unfortunatly stopped a baratheon tag team. Robb not contacting stannis at the min is more his political naievity at play

 

3) its still a magic fluke agaisnt him that costs him thousands of troops, lets the northmen into the westerlands  and means hes lost a force that could otherwise watch his back if he needs to try and dislodge the tyrell KL  siege 

4)he doesnt have any influence over and he does benefit from it but flipside is nor its is a crazy out of the blue fluke either ..its jsut somehting that occurs in war and allows him to slip.in and totaly upset the current flow of the war, luck as they say is partly being prepared when an oppertunity presents itself.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I mean Balon attacking the north BEFORE asking for an alliance with the Lannisters might be the luckiest thing to happen in the series, for him. The only thing more lucky for him is Stannis using Mel to get rid of Renly, but being an idiot and not using her when he faced the Lannisters. Rather funny how great and smart characters, become idiots, when the plot needs them to.

Which you see again in the show.