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Jon = Kwisatz Haderach?


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So Rhaegar was likely trying for some prophesied child thing when he ran off with Lyanna, Rhaegar's parents were married because of a prophecy, the Targaryens in general do things to follow a prophecy. Rhaegar was also probably expecting a girl to complete his Aegon Rhaenys Visenya trio. So we have multiple prophecy influenced births leading to the supposed-to-be-female Jon's birth...

Edited by Craving Peaches
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I think there are some similarities but not too many. As in, an expected female child (that is, if Rhaegar was really trying for a Visenya 2.0, something that may be l probable but we’re not sure yet) and ‘destiny’ interferes (or does it) and you get a male child. One is achieved via the genetic manipulation of lineages through millennia, the other through ‘magic’. At any rate, I don’t think Jon will play a role that is in any way similar to that of Paul Atreides. 

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On 2/2/2023 at 9:30 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So Rhaegar was likely trying for some prophesied child thing when he married Lyanna, Rhaegar's parents were married because of a prophecy, the Targaryens in general do things to follow a prophecy. Rhaegar was also probably expecting a girl to complete his Aegon Rhaenys Visenya trio. So we have multiple prophecy influenced births leading to the supposed-to-be-female Jon's birth...

There is no prophesy related to Paul's birth, just a breeding program. Religion and the - inducted - prophesies are frauds constructed by the Bene Gesserit (and the fact is spelled out multiple times in the books).

Beside: Because Paul finds himself a female version of Feyd Rautha with Chani, the program is on rails again and produces the/another (depends on how one weights Paul's disability to see his son in Chanis womb) Kwisatz Haderach the Bene Gesserit were working toward. One that does not only not leave the Golden Path, but is actively toward it.

Of course there is some influence, because of the impact Dune had, but I think hope the similarities come mostly from "young people doing impressive things" and prophesies being an important trope in fantasy - something both authors are deconstructing, each in their own way. Imho we really don't need an misguided and misapprehensiv commentary on Dune in ASoIaF, as we got in the abomination.

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Just now, Morte said:

There is no prophesy related to Paul's birth, just a breeding program. Religion and the - inducted - prophesies are frauds constructed by the Bene Gesserit (and the fact is spelled out multiple times in the books).

I know...

Spoiler

Another beautiful comparison ruined by logic again! :crying:

The main similarity I was trying to get at was that I do believe Rhaegar intended for Jon to be a girl to complete his Aegon-Rhaenys-Visenya trio.

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On 2/3/2023 at 12:05 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think GRRM is legally allowed to do a Dune crossover. :P

Doesn't stop him from taking most of the major elements of his world building(original build, before world book etc) straight out of Dune though and even then it is quite lackluster. They are so blatantly obvious you can't call it "inspiration".

Jon being Kwisatz Haderach is something I've been mockingly throwing around the forums for quite a while now. 

On 2/2/2023 at 11:30 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So Rhaegar was likely trying for some prophesied child thing when he married Lyanna, Rhaegar's parents were married because of a prophecy, the Targaryens in general do things to follow a prophecy. Rhaegar was also probably expecting a girl to complete his Aegon Rhaenys Visenya trio. So we have multiple prophecy influenced births leading to the supposed-to-be-female Jon's birth...

Jessica(actually a Harkonnen herself) was also supposed to bear only girls so one would marry to the Harkonnen line. But it is Bran who drinks the waters of life(weirwood paste) that would transform him. and not just that, Bran is the one looking at the heart of winter.

“Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You'll find me there, staring out at you!

 

Can't wait for Bran to order Shaddam IV Emperor of the Known Universe to send guild heighliners above them containing many great houses of the Landsraad. 

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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14 hours ago, Morte said:

There is no prophesy related to Paul's birth, just a breeding program. Religion and the - inducted - prophesies are frauds constructed by the Bene Gesserit (and the fact is spelled out multiple times in the books).

Beside: Because Paul finds himself a female version of Feyd Rautha with Chani, the program is on rails again and produces the/another (depends on how one weights Paul's disability to see his son in Chanis womb) Kwisatz Haderach the Bene Gesserit were working toward. One that does not only not leave the Golden Path, but is actively toward it.

Of course there is some influence, because of the impact Dune had, but I think hope the similarities come mostly from "young people doing impressive things" and prophesies being an important trope in fantasy - something both authors are deconstructing, each in their own way. Imho we really don't need an misguided and misapprehensiv commentary on Dune in ASoIaF, as we got in the abomination.

 Braavosi Faceless men = Tleilaxu Face Dancers

Maesters = an amalgamation of Mentats and Bene Gesserit

Braavosi waterdancers = Ginaz(planet of archipelagos) swordmasters 

Weirwood paste that'll transform Bran = water of life

Shade of the evening = Sapho Juice (spice is also a possibility, but lip stains)

 

there are many more with several being important world building elements of ASOIAF but just can't be bothered to remember atm. Similarities of some of the stuff don't come from tropes - things GRRM has stated he doesn't like((or whatever it was he said), they aren't even inspirations, they are taken straight out of it and used for important parts with little to no changes besides names. 

Who knows at the last book we may jump a thousand years into the future and see that Jon's distant ancestor is wearing a Holtzmann shield so he won't go berserk from blows to the head, because, you know, slow blade penetrates the shield and slow blade = no concussion.  

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Maesters = an amalgamation of Mentats and Bene Gesserit

The mentats and BG are way way more interesting & cool than the maesters imo, even if we don’t get to see the mentats in the same depth that we do the BG. 

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22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Braavosi Faceless men = Tleilaxu Face Dancers

Maesters = an amalgamation of Mentats and Bene Gesserit

Braavosi waterdancers = Ginaz(planet of archipelagos) swordmasters 

Weirwood paste that'll transform Bran = water of life

Shade of the evening = Sapho Juice (spice is also a possibility, but lip stains)

I imagine the Faceless Men and the stained lips were intentional tributes. But I think that's about it. The rest is probably just incidental monomyth-bildungsroman overlap.

And the maesters are just slightly more advanced monks, nothing on the level of the Bene Gesserit, or Mentats!

 

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9 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The rest is probably just incidental monomyth-bildungsroman overlap.

 

 

Perhaps. But with some worldbuilding elements (and important ones at that) being so obviously taken straight out of Dune with only the slightest changes, even the most generic fantasy stuff sure don't feel that way. Say, Arya may very well have been a random name but feels like Alia of the Knife after all the dune stuff. Bran looking into the heart of winter in his coma dream also feels like looking at the place women are afraid to look because of those things, especially after him taking waters of life (weirwood paste) in the last book. 

 

9 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

And the maesters are just slightly more advanced monks, nothing on the level of the Bene Gesserit, or Mentats!

 

Maesters are a secretive order of several thousand years. They are an order that every house want the services of an order that they even send children for training and if the sent children remain in their ranks, their identity becomes a secret, same as in Bene Gesserit. 

 

Maesters and Faceless men aren't small nods or tribute, they are important parts of the world building. Weirwood paste isn't a simple nod, it is an important part of the story. Shade of the evening may have been just random fantasy stuff if not for the stained lips and staining of the lips may have been considered just a tribute if not for the fact stated above, important elements are taken straight out of it with little change. It may very well just be intended as a tribute but doesn't feel that way. With all that said, I must also mention the Valyrian eyes. I think it is just regular fantasy stuff but they may very well be just inspired from the Eyes of Ibad because similarities stop just there.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Perhaps. But with some worldbuilding elements (and important ones at that) being so obviously taken straight out of Dune with only the slightest changes, even the most generic fantasy stuff sure don't feel that way. Say, Arya may very well have been a random name but feels like Alia of the Knife after all the dune stuff. Bran looking into the heart of winter in his coma dream also feels like looking at the place women are afraid to look because of those things, especially after him taking waters of life (weirwood paste) in the last book. 

I dunno. To me Arya fits well with the "song" theme of the series. And Dune isn't the first or only story to have psychedelic vision quests. GRRM's main inspiration there is probably his own time in the 60s and 70s!

That said, he does take from a bunch of other stories. More than anything else, he seems to have borrowed from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn for his framing high fantasy plot.

And that series has a character named Marya, a noble woman who disguises herself as a boy and is a skilled fighter. Her uncle has a sword named "Needle." Yet Arya as written in ASOIAF feels different than Marya. 

Just as with his many homages to Lovecraft, GRRM takes his inspirations as framing premises, and then fleshes them all out according to his own particular style and vision.

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On 2/2/2023 at 2:30 PM, Craving Peaches said:

So Rhaegar was likely trying for some prophesied child thing when he married Lyanna, Rhaegar's parents were married because of a prophecy, the Targaryens in general do things to follow a prophecy. Rhaegar was also probably expecting a girl to complete his Aegon Rhaenys Visenya trio. So we have multiple prophecy influenced births leading to the supposed-to-be-female Jon's birth...

Rhaegar married Lyanna?

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