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Will Daenerys be 'Unhappy' with Westeros when she gets there?


Craving Peaches

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2 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

This is actually something I'm very curious about. Is stability a real possibility for Meereen in such a short amount of time? I don't find it realistically possible. What lengths would she have to go to in order to achieve it? Who would she leave in charge of Meereen? There are too many schemers in her service alone already. And don't forget the bloody flux is taking people out left and right. Does she have anyone with enough competence to lead and govern in her absence? Ending slavery is a massive feat that requires more than a lifetime of work, especially in a place as large as Slaver's Bay. She's accomplished an incredible feat already in disrupting some of the slavers' power. I believe the best we can hope for is a slave revolt, and we will never find out how it goes.

I see Meereen being abandoned because of the Pale Mare. The Yunkai threw corpses into the city. The Blue graces (the healers) themselves are dropping by the numbers. It's a dying city

Spoiler

Men are less fearful to try a sortie with Selmy than be in the city where the Pale Mare gallops. 

Personally, I do not see Dany return to Meereen with the Dothraki army, but just send them to Volantis. Selmy might want to wait for the return of his queen, but Tyrion is smarter than that. I expect Selmy to die of the Pale Mare at Meereen, while Tyrion will motivate them to march and sail for Volantis. Moqoro can see stuff to confirm Dany's alive and where she's going. And she might do a fly-by on Drogon.

But overall Meereen is going the way of Astapor

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Westeros will be begging for Dany’s help after Euron, Littlefinger, Stannis, Jon Snow-Wight, and Cersei have destroyed the kingdom that the Targaryens built. It will be in a very sad state so expect disappointment but also opportunities.  Opportunities because any resistance will be weak.  

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1 hour ago, Garrettcz said:

Can you elaborate on this or provide a source for when he said this? I've never heard it before.

I first read this in an essay referencing what George Martin said.  I think it would break forum rules if I were to post the link since the essay compares Book Tyrion to Show Tyrion, but if you look up "The Monster Who Wasn't There" by BryndenBFish, you should find it pretty easily.  George Martin's quote is toward the top of the essay:

Interviewer: “Do you have a favorite character?”

Martin: “I’ve got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He’s the villain of course, but hey, there’s nothing like a good villain.”

This interview was from 1999, so a long time ago, so things could have changed in his mind since then... but seeing Tyrion's protectory, I don't think so.

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5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The only problem with your predictions is that the Others will be Daenerys' number one priority. Euron will probably be her number two priority followed by Aegon at number three.

Maybe.  It's hard to predict how she will react to the Others (and obviously her story will involve them heavily), since we have 3 1/2 books of her obsessing over the Iron Throne, with only one single vague dream about the Others toward the beginning of the first book.  The threat of the Others could change her priorities really quickly... I just don't see the purpose of Aegon's character (from a story perspective) if it isn't to set up the Dance of the Dragons Part 2.

No matter what, so many things are going on that the last couple books will be chaos.  Which is probably why it is taking George Martin so long to write them (and I say that without judgement: I'm not one of those "angry fans").

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Marwyn (who, in addition to knowing everything that he knows about magic, dragons and prophecy, now knows everything that Maester Aemon and Sam Tarly know) is travelling to Daenerys with the intention of telling her that if she does not go to Westeros and fight now, then all humanity will be doomed.

Is that what he is doing though?  His intentions were vague... and that is even if you take his words as truth (which I don't).  Regarding prophecy, this is what Marwyn says about that:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

It doesn't seem like Marwyn is convinced that Dany is any savior of the world.  I also am not convinced he has altruistic motives.

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't think she will want the Iron Throne and I don't think she will like Aegon (or anyone in his inner circle) but I do think that she won't attack them unless she is forced to do so. Team fAegon will be the first ones to attack and draw blood.

As has already been discussed, Dany obviously "wants" the Iron Throne, even if she doesn't truly want it.  She has extreme hatred toward all the "Usurper's Dogs" even in Book 5 after being out of her brother's clutches for years, and Barristan telling her the truth about Ned Stark didn't seem to make her hate him any less.  Anyone who takes "her throne", she would see as a usurper.  And I don't think her recent experiences will make her any more peaceful.

I think Team Aegon will be on the throne when she arrives.  He has no reason to strike at her because he already has what he wants, unless she strikes him first.  Aegon doesn't need to worry about her having a better claim because if he is the real deal, she doesn't.  Even without the sexism, Westeros succession rules is heir to the heir has the claim before the sibling to the heir.  The only claim she has is dragons... and she will make that claim by using them, I suspect.

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4 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I first read this in an essay referencing what George Martin said.  I think it would break forum rules if I were to post the link since the essay compares Book Tyrion to Show Tyrion, but if you look up "The Monster Who Wasn't There" by BryndenBFish, you should find it pretty easily.  George Martin's quote is toward the top of the essay:

Interviewer: “Do you have a favorite character?”

Martin: “I’ve got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He’s the villain of course, but hey, there’s nothing like a good villain.”

This interview was from 1999, so a long time ago, so things could have changed in his mind since then... but seeing Tyrion's protectory, I don't think so.

Awesome. Thank you!

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7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Westeros will be begging for Dany’s help after Euron, Littlefinger, Stannis, Jon Snow-Wight, and Cersei have destroyed the kingdom that the Targaryens built. It will be in a very sad state so expect disappointment but also opportunities.  Opportunities because any resistance will be weak.  

here I thought we root for Snow White against the witch!

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On 2/4/2023 at 9:09 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Unless Daenerys is Snow White and the witch is the Starks (collectively), which might be the point they're trying to get across.

noo. Jon Snow is obviously Snow White. 

Jon Snow has every factor white skin - Black Hair - Evil Step Mom - Love at First Sight (Yigrete) - Animal Friends (the guy can literally have a trail of animals behind him... much like Varameer) 

meanwhile the so called Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen is a queen , is magical, and is friends with Dragons( Melifacent?!) ... she is so obviously THE WITCH.

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13 hours ago, EggBlue said:

noo. Jon Snow is obviously Snow White. 

Jon Snow has every factor white skin - Black Hair - Evil Step Mom - Love at First Sight (Yigrete) - Animal Friends (the guy can literally have a trail of animals behind him... much like Varameer) 

meanwhile the so called Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen is a queen , is magical, and is friends with Dragons( Melifacent?!) ... she is so obviously THE WITCH.

Not to mention he's just tasted a poisoned pomegranate, and may be falling into a deathlike slumber.

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On 2/3/2023 at 4:52 AM, SeanF said:

I’m sure Arianne will be horrified by this, but her whole story is of someone who doesn’t really appreciate how cruel  the game of thrones is.

Sorry I'm a little bit late in responding to this, but why do you think this?  (The second part, not the first part.)  Arianne is certainly much gentler than her cousin Obara, but she seems to admire all her cousins greatly.  Obara comes across as a pure psychopath, and Nymeria's plan to murder young innocent Tommen is reprehensible... but Tyene is worse than Nymeria (in my opinion), and Arianne sides with Tyene.

I don't remember the Dornish plotline perfectly, but after her crowning plot failed, I believe Doran told Arianne that crowning Myrcella would ultimately have led to Myrcella's death, and I think Arianne secretly self-acknowledged that deep down, she knew that.  Without knowing the true details of Quentyn's mission, Arriane thought of her brother as a traitor, and it seemed she was willing to go to war with him over her birthright.

If Jon Connington goes berserk (as I think he's likely to do), Arianne might be repulsed by JonCon, but I don't think that would cause her to back away from Aegon.  She's not the most bloodthirsty player of the game of thrones, but she's no Ned or Ellaria either.  I think she fits in pretty well with the other players, and I never got the impression that she thought the game was overly cruel.

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59 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Sorry I'm a little bit late in responding to this, but why do you think this?  (The second part, not the first part.)  Arianne is certainly much gentler than her cousin Obara, but she seems to admire all her cousins greatly.  Obara comes across as a pure psychopath, and Nymeria's plan to murder young innocent Tommen is reprehensible... but Tyene is worse than Nymeria (in my opinion), and Arianne sides with Tyene.

I don't remember the Dornish plotline perfectly, but after her crowning plot failed, I believe Doran told Arianne that crowning Myrcella would ultimately have led to Myrcella's death, and I think Arianne secretly self-acknowledged that deep down, she knew that.  Without knowing the true details of Quentyn's mission, Arriane thought of her brother as a traitor, and it seemed she was willing to go to war with him over her birthright.

If Jon Connington goes berserk (as I think he's likely to do), Arianne might be repulsed by JonCon, but I don't think that would cause her to back away from Aegon.  She's not the most bloodthirsty player of the game of thrones, but she's no Ned or Ellaria either.  I think she fits in pretty well with the other players, and I never got the impression that she thought the game was overly cruel.

I think Arianne falls victim to wishful thinking.  She thinks she can become Princess of Dorne (and later, Queen of Westeros) without people suffering.

She thinks she could send her father to live out his days in the Water Gardens. But, one of her followers would have murdered Doran.  They’d see it as choosing between Doran’s death and Doran’s revenge.  No one keeps deposed rulers alive in this setting.

She is very remorseful over Arys Oakheart’s death and Myrcella’s injury.  Someone like Cersei would just feel regret the plot had failed.

Being disinherited is no light matter.  She has good reason to fear for her future.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think Arianne falls victim to wishful thinking.  She thinks she can become Princess of Dorne (and later, Queen of Westeros) without people suffering.

She thinks she could send her father to live out his days in the Water Gardens. But, one of her followers would have murdered Doran.  They’d see it as choosing between Doran’s death and Doran’s revenge.  No one keeps deposed rulers alive in this setting.

She is very remorseful over Arys Oakheart’s death and Myrcella’s injury.  Someone like Cersei would just feel regret the plot had failed.

Being disinherited is no light matter.  She has good reason to fear for her future.

Okay, thanks.  I was just wondering, not necessarily disagreeing.  I agree with the above descriptions of Arianne.  Being better than Cersei is a given: Cersei is one of the most malevolent players, but I think Arianne is in the same league as the players of medium morality (Renly, etc.).  I'm not sure if there are any "good" players, since the good people stay out of the game.

I believe that Arianne loved Myrcella, so her late realization that she was half-knowingly putting Myrcella in danger makes Arianne seem both sympathetic and foolish at the same time.  She felt guilty over Arys's death, but a lot of that guilt was from the fact that Arys threw his life away over his love for her, when she mostly treated him as a means to an end.

I think George Martin said that Arianne is one of his favorite characters to write for, which surprised me.  She only has 2 published POV chapters so far, so maybe he is talking about not-yet-published TWOW chapters?  While I am a bit of fanboy who loves every chapter and every character viewpoint (whether or not I like the character), I don't think there is much depth to Arianne's character in her published chapters relative to most other non-Areo POV characters.

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34 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Okay, thanks.  I was just wondering, not necessarily disagreeing.  I agree with the above descriptions of Arianne.  Being better than Cersei is a given: Cersei is one of the most malevolent players, but I think Arianne is in the same league as the players of medium morality (Renly, etc.).  I'm not sure if there are any "good" players, since the good people stay out of the game.

I believe that Arianne loved Myrcella, so her late realization that she was half-knowingly putting Myrcella in danger makes Arianne seem both sympathetic and foolish at the same time.  She felt guilty over Arys's death, but a lot of that guilt was from the fact that Arys threw his life away over his love for her, when she mostly treated him as a means to an end.

I think George Martin said that Arianne is one of his favorite characters to write for, which surprised me.  She only has 2 published POV chapters so far, so maybe he is talking about not-yet-published TWOW chapters?  While I am a bit of fanboy who loves every chapter and every character viewpoint (whether or not I like the character), I don't think there is much depth to Arianne's character in her published chapters relative to most other non-Areo POV characters.

I do think she’ll end up perishing in a dragon’s flames like Quentyn.  Her sample chapters set her up as an antagonist to Daenerys.  “Nymeria burned as bright as any man, and so shall I” is foreshadowing, I think.

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I think she'll be as out of her depth as she first was on The Dothraki Sea with everything new and unfamiliar.  I also think she'll be disappointed both with Westeros - she's a summer child used to warmth and light not muddy streets, frozen fields and gloomy stone castles - and her reception - an invader, the heir of a mad king who brought disaster on the realm, not a saviour or mysha to her people.

She'll have to earn their trust and welcome every bit as much as she did with The Dothraki and newly freed people of Slaver's Bay and she has rumour and poisonous propaganda to contend with as much as rival claimants with legitimacy.

I also agree that she will realise she doesn't want the IT or even Westeros as it's not her home (home is where the heart is) but she'll have to follow the path her feet are set on and battle The Others and perhaps her rivals before she realises this.  By then duty will have her in it's grasp and she won't be able to put down the burden of leadership (no more Dany the barefoot Queen in Essos in a house with a red door than Robert the sell sword king).

On 2/3/2023 at 3:09 PM, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

This is actually something I'm very curious about. Is stability a real possibility for Meereen in such a short amount of time? I don't find it realistically possible. What lengths would she have to go to in order to achieve it?

Fire and Blood.  She realises that she needs to be harsh, even ruthless, to overcome reaction.  A good analogy is The French Revolution: how to ensure the survival of the revolution in the face of hostile neighbouring powers and an entrenched elite.  That's exactly where we are at the end of ADWD and a guillotine / Astapori cleansing is on the cards.  She's learnt from Astapor so will leave Slaver's Bay in the hands of a capable loyalist.  Volantis, the Russia of this analogy, is key to whether Dany's, i.e. Revolutionary, forces prevail and overcome their neighbours and spread the revolution further afield.

Whether this will lead to stability in the long-term is another matter. To impose order she needs to shift from revolution to Bonapartism and that's either a long way off or a task for a different ruler.  In the short-term it's going to be upheaval.

On 2/3/2023 at 8:04 PM, StarkTullies said:

Is that what he is doing though?  His intentions were vague... and that is even if you take his words as truth (which I don't).  Regarding prophecy, this is what Marwyn says about that:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

It doesn't seem like Marwyn is convinced that Dany is any savior of the world.  I also am not convinced he has altruistic motives.

We don't really know Marwyn at all except he's not as averse to magic or dragons as the other arch-maesters seem to be.  It could simply be he thinks prophecy needs to be midwifed rather than people thinking it's guaranteed so can just be left to happen.  I think it's more likely he intends to steer Dany as Aemon intended (and like Mel with Stannis) than put poison in her porridge.

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Westeros is suffering from the incompetence of the Lannisters in KL. The Wall is in a state of chaos because of Jon’s poor leadership. Stanis refuses to surrender and wants to continue the fight in the north. Westeros is nothing like the prosperous kingdom remembered by its last king, Viserys III. It will be a disappointment to our favorite leading hero, Daenerys Targaryen, as it will be to the reader. I think the term “a dream of spring” will come from her perspective.  

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On 2/3/2023 at 3:11 AM, Craving Peaches said:

 

This is why in hindsight staying in Mereen was not the best idea and she should have instead kept going to Volantis.  Not only is Aegon there to join forces, but there is the opportunity to further cement her political and military acumen in negotiating with the tigers, elephants, and the red god priests.  The R'hollor fanatics would also be valuable allies to her.  She marries Aegon in Volantis, goes to the iron bank for funding at the advice of Illyrio since he knows that Cersei is putting the kingdom in debt, and she arrives in Westeros alongside Aegon as a beloved liberator.  Many older commoners to after all look back on Targaryen days with nostalgia.  

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