Mutineers at Craster’s Keep

[Bendric Dayne]

Preston Jacobs recently released a video talking about how the mission to go bring justice to the mutineers at Craster’s keep (which is something we see in the show) was originally GRMM’s idea that he later scrapped. In his opinion this was a “boneheaded” idea, but I would respectfully disagree. I understand why this might not be the smartest decision for any of us to make; to risk the lives of our men, when we already have so few, just to go kill some guys who aren’t doing anything. However, from a writing perspective, it makes sense for GRRM to include this for Jon because it fits with his character, he puts honor and justice over self preservation, like Ned.
 

When Ned is given the choice to save his own life by lying and giving up his honor he laughs in Varys’s face, he holds his honor above his self preservation. The only reason he does end up lying is because he holds his daughter’s life above his honor. Had it only been a choice between his life and his honor he had no doubt that he would have chosen his honor. Is it a decision any of us would consider smart? Maybe not, but it makes sense for GRRM to write it considering how he wrote Ned as a character. We might think Ned is being stupid, but it is a good decision made by the author for Ned’s character. Likewise with Jon and Craster’s keep. 
 

We might think Jon is “boneheaded” for risking his life and that of his men to bring justice to the mutineers, but the idea for GRRM to write this for Jon isn’t boneheaded at all; it’s a smart idea because it fits with what we know about Jon as a character. When I saw Jon doing this in the show I didn’t think it was weird at all. I didn’t stop and think “hmm this is something that Jon would never do” (which is something I did end up thinking to myself a lot in the later seasons). 
 

I would also argue that it isn’t even boneheaded for Jon to do this. The NW is made up of mostly criminals. They are held together by this very thin fabric in the edge of the world. What stops them from overpowering their lords and becoming free again? Perhaps an idea that whoever breaks their vows will suffer justice. So by not bringing justice to the mutineers at Craster’s keep, what kind of message is Jon sending to his men? That they can break their vows and nothing will happen. Those vows are what’s holding the NW together and you can’t allow people to break them. To bring justice to the mutineers is to send a message that justice will be done to anyone who breaks their vows. To not bring them justice is to send a message that you can kill your LC and nothing will happen. If that is allowed chaos will take over the NW and whatever vows held them together will break; the NW itself would break. So from an ideological perspective it makes sense to bring justice to the mutineers. 
 

So why would GRRM remove this plot point? The only reason I can think of is that he needs to have the mutineers there for some future reason. If he’s planning on giving Jon POV’s in TWOW as Ghost, he’s going to need to have something for him to do. I don’t think GRRM can afford to have many chapters of characters just walking around doing basically nothing like he did in previous books. A good way to show Ghost traveling north of the wall whilst also doing something is to have him kill the mutineers at Craster’s keep. This way Ghost won’t just fast travel from the Wall to say, Bran’s cave, or wherever it is he’s going. He’ll have a chapter at Craster’s keep where he kills the mutineers which will simultaneously show us how far along north he has gone.
 

I still think we could have seen Jon doing this in ADWD instead of spending so much time just being at the Wall, but if GRRM feels that it would be better to leave the mutineers there so that Ghost has something to do then I think it’s also fine. Also, he maybe just dropped the mutineers from the story and we’re just not gonna see them again and whatever, it’s a pretty minor plot point. If we don’t get any Jon/Ghost POV’s for a while, it can just be mentioned in retrospect how Ghost killed them all or something. Either way if Ghost doesn’t kill them, it’s safe to assume that the Others will, so GRRM doesn’t really have to ever mention the mutineers again if he feels there’s no time for them in the story. 
 

What do guys think? Was GRRM right to drop this for ADWD or should he have kept it? Does it make sense for Jon as a character or was it a stupid idea? Will we see this plot point resolved in TWOW or will it just be dropped? 
 

P.S. I don’t have anything against Preston Jacobs as a YouTuber. I think his videos are fine and he at least admits that he’s probably 50% wrong about his theories at the end of his videos. I’ll give him credit for being one of the only YouTubers who still constantly drops ASOIAF content even though I prefer the analysis of someone like AltShiftX. I just disagree with Preston on this particular point about the mutineers. Not all of GRRM’s ideas are great, but I wouldn’t call this one “boneheaded” at all. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I think the abomination handled it very poorly. Why would the mutineers keep prisoners who later escaped? Why would they keep Ghost alive in a cage? How contrived is it that the mutineers captured Bran Stark and Howland Reed’s children without even considering how valuable they were as hostages?
GRRM was right to ditch the idea. Even if it’s in character for Jon, he had bigger fish to fry, plus he was still recovering from the arrow in his leg. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

oops

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 hour ago, Bendric Dayne said:

So why would GRRM remove this plot point? The only reason I can think of is that he needs to have the mutineers there for some future reason. If he’s planning on giving Jon POV’s in TWOW as Ghost, he’s going to need to have something for him to do. I don’t think GRRM can afford to have many chapters of characters just walking around doing basically nothing like he did in previous books. A good way to show Ghost traveling north of the wall whilst also doing something is to have him kill the mutineers at Craster’s keep. This way Ghost won’t just fast travel from the Wall to say, Bran’s cave, or wherever it is he’s going. He’ll have a chapter at Craster’s keep where he kills the mutineers which will simultaneously show us how far along north he has gone.

Mutineers were dead anyway, no need to go back for them. Wildlings wouldn't take them and there's nothing to protect them from Craster's babysitters. Haven't they already been eaten by Bran and the gang? Mutineers a la Cold Hands?

[Craving Peaches]

15 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Mutineers were dead anyway, no need to go back for them. Wildlings wouldn't take them and there's nothing to protect them from Craster's babysitters. Haven't they already been eaten by Bran and the gang? Mutineers a la Cold Hands?

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Chett and everyone were killed by the Others, right? There's no one to go back for...

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Chett and everyone were killed by the Others, right? There's no one to go back for...

Chett was already killed and wighted at the Fist. Samwell sees him as one of the wights that surround Gilly.

But yes, some of the older Craster's wives urge Sam not to wait, because They are coming. We can assume Craster's keep was attacked. Colhands then killed the surviving mutineers who escaped from an attack on Craster's Keep. Some were wolf meat, some served as Bran's bacon.

[Bendric Dayne]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I think the abomination handled it very poorly. Why would the mutineers keep prisoners who later escaped? Why would they keep Ghost alive in a cage? How contrived is it that the mutineers captured Bran Stark and Howland Reed’s children without even considering how valuable they were as hostages?
GRRM was right to ditch the idea. Even if it’s in character for Jon, he had bigger fish to fry, plus he was still recovering from the arrow in his leg. 

I agree that the show definitely handled it poorly. Bran and co. should never have been there, but the decision for Jon to go there made sense to me. Maybe after giving it some thought GRRM couldn’t find a way to fit it into the story in a way that made sense to him, but the idea in and of itself makes sense for Jon as a character. Again maybe GRRM ditched it because he felt the story he ended up writing was better without it, but I also see how he could have fit it in by sacrificing other plots. I assume he ditched it because he thought keeping the plots that he did made for a better story. However, had he made it fit well I think it would also have been good and made sense. I’m not complaining because it is a pretty minor plot point that doesn’t change the story that much and I’m glad with what we’ve got, but it’s a bit much to call it a “boneheaded” idea when I wouldn’t even consider it a bad one. It’s a good idea that makes sense in my opinion, but was ultimately sacrificed for what we’ve got. 

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I agree that the show definitely handled it poorly. Bran and co. should never have been there, but the decision for Jon to go there made sense to me. Maybe after giving it some thought GRRM couldn’t find a way to fit it into the story in a way that made sense to him, but the idea in and of itself makes sense for Jon as a character. Again maybe GRRM ditched it because he felt the story he ended up writing was better without it, but I also see how he could have fit it in by sacrificing other plots. I assume he ditched it because he thought keeping the plots that he did made for a better story. However, had he made it fit well I think it would also have been good and made sense. I’m not complaining because it is a pretty minor plot point that doesn’t change the story that much and I’m glad with what we’ve got, but it’s a bit much to call it a “boneheaded” idea when I wouldn’t even consider it a bad one. It’s a good idea that makes sense in my opinion, but was ultimately sacrificed for what we’ve got. 

Was that an idea he had when he still tried to do the 5 year gap or after?

Looks to me, he transferred a risky ranging beyond the Wall onto Hardhome, which makes more sense as that at least is for men he sent out there and to prevent thousands to be added to the wight army.

[Bendric Dayne]

18 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Chett was already killed and wighted at the Fist. Samwell sees him as one of the wights that surround Gilly.

But yes, some of the older Craster's wives urge Sam not to wait, because They are coming. We can assume Craster's keep was attacked. Colhands then killed the surviving mutineers who escaped from an attack on Craster's Keep. Some were wolf meat, some served as Bran's bacon.

Yeah but it is unclear to me wether or not part of the idea was to have the mutineers sacrifice the sons like in the show in order to survive. Either way I always thought that Coldhands killed some of the mutineers but that most were still at Craster’s keep, although the Others could have killed them we still don’t know it for sure. At the beginning of Dance Jon sends some rangers beyond the Wall. It would have been possible for Alliser Thorne to have come back and told Jon that the mutineers were still there. This would have been a moment of tension because we would not know if Alliser would have been lying or not and it would have presented Jon with a difficult choice. Alliser could then have spread to the men that Jon is a coward for not delivering justice to the mutineers, or if Jon had gone to kill them, Alliser could have told all the men that Jon was wasting lives needlessly. Either way, it also makes sense for Jon to want to make sure that they are brought to justice since enforcing justice at the NW is a large part of what prevents this faction from collapsing, to allow such a crime to go unpunished is to send a message that the criminals of the NW can do as they please and go unpunished. At least that could have been Jon’s reasoning behind it. I’m not saying that adding this plot would have been better than what we got, but I see how GRRM could have included it in a way that makes sense for the story. Wether anyone agrees with me or not I think it is an exaggeration for Preston to call this idea “boneheaded” when it could have worked and made sense. 

[Bendric Dayne]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Was that an idea he had when he still tried to do the 5 year gap or after?

Looks to me, he transferred a risky ranging beyond the Wall onto Hardhome, which makes more sense as that at least is for men he sent out there and to prevent thousands to be added to the wight army.

It’s possible that the idea was scrapped with the five year gap, I’m not really sure. It was in one of the early drafts for AFFC before he decided to split half the characters to ADWD so it’s possible. And yeah I think Jon’s story as we got it definitely makes sense and I’m not wishing for it to have been different, I’m just saying how I still think think this idea to go to Craster’s keep could have worked with a few tweaks to the story. I’m assuming GRRM decided against keeping it because he felt that the story we got was ultimately better and who am I to argue with him. I guess my point is that I could also easily see GRRM adjusting the story to make this fit quite well so I wouldn’t agree with Preston that this was a “boneheaded” idea; I wouldn’t even consider it a bad idea. I think it’s a pretty good idea that was scrapped for something that’s probably better. Although there are some fans who complain that Jon is a boring POV in ADWD because he’s just in CB “signing papers” so I’m assuming those fans would have found this plot more interesting than what we got. While I’m sure GRRM would also have made this interesting I like Jon’s story as it is. 
 

Alternatively, I think there’s a possibility that GRRM is keeping the mutineers for TWOW. Idk if Ghost can eat the meat from wights, but if he can’t, he’s gonna need some living meat out there to feed on and the mutineers can serve that purpose. Even if we don’t get any Ghost POV’s, it would be cool if one of the rangers went through Craster’s keep after Ghost has been there and goes back to CB to tell Melisandre (who will be the POV at CB) that he found a massacre there where the mutineers were ravaged by a beast. So we would know that Ghost has taken care of them. So even if it’s not a plot point that GRRM has time to write on now, he could resolve it with a few sentences in one of Melisandre’s POV chapters. 

[sweetsunray]

59 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

It’s possible that the idea was scrapped with the five year gap, I’m not really sure. It was in one of the early drafts for AFFC before he decided to split half the characters to ADWD so it’s possible.

Makes more sense with a 5 year gap, as something he remembered. That would allow for a "beyond the wall world" where it seems still safe enough to risk going there. Though no doubt some rangers would have ended up dead, where some in CB lost a friend they end up resenting Jon for.

Without the gap, George had to ramp up the difficulty of surviving beyond the Wall, and boost the Others' army. So, we have Varamyr's prologue, 9 rangers being sent on 3 different missions with 6 not having returned yet and 3 ending up dead by the Weeper, and Hardhome to save the living. 

59 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Alternatively, I think there’s a possibility that GRRM is keeping the mutineers for TWOW. Idk if Ghost can eat the meat from wights, but if he can’t, he’s gonna need some living meat out there to feed on and the mutineers can serve that purpose. Even if we don’t get any Ghost POV’s, it would be cool if one of the rangers went through Craster’s keep after Ghost has been there and goes back to CB to tell Melisandre (who will be the POV at CB) that he found a massacre there where the mutineers were ravaged by a beast. So we would know that Ghost has taken care of them. So even if it’s not a plot point that GRRM has time to write on now, he could resolve it with a few sentences in one of Melisandre’s POV chapters.

I don't get why you presume Ghost would be north of the Wall? He was last seen in Jon's office.

I also consider at least one Other to be just at the north side of the Wall, at the rim of the haunted forest, when Jon's being attacked by Wick and Bowen Marsh and 2 other men of the NW. As soon as his neck was nicked and blood flowed onto the icy ground (connected to the Wall, ice-net so to speak), the magical ward in the Wall is broken, allowing an Other to raise the dead buried in the lichyard (uproooted by Boroq's boar) and imo allowing the Other to pass through the ice wall.

Something's happening at CB more than Wun Wun having killed Patrek, making men scream, right after Jon gets nicked. And something's happening to Jon himself too, based on Wick's reaction of waving "wasn't me"! I think the magical ward chooses to have a second life so to speak in Jon and therefore the magical ward still only protects him... The cold he feels is of both the ice Wall merging with him as well as the Other's magic. He doesn't feel the other daggers, because he's magically protected.

In that scenario, we'll have a Mel or Bran chapter describing all the crazy happening at CB all at once (including Bran trying to skinchange Patchface who bites his tongue off and resists Bran's effort). And then we get a Jon POV that starts with him in Ghost, before returning to his own body, and he ends up killing the Other at CB and discovers he's some weird superhero.

The Others would not do an attack on CB, without also trying to distract Bran and Bloodraven at their cave. So, mayhem there too. And the remaining Others simultaneously attack Hardhome and snuff out all of the fires, having their wight boost of the thousands. The Others would not be hampered themselves by the Wall anymore, but with the physical wall still standing the wight army cannot just pass.

Take into account as well that we won't be reading Wall events soon. There is a lot of stuff to catch up on timeline wise:

• in the Riverlands
• in the Vale
• Battle of Ice
• Braavos
• Dorne and Stormlands
• Bran's POV
• Oldtown
• Davos and Rickon

before we get to the moment of the assassination attempt of Jon. Much of these plots were left hanging about halfway through aDwD, and we know only some of the results through Kevan's epilogue. So, a lot of ground to cover across Westeros between the last we heard or saw anything of these characters, and many of these culminating plots took place between Jon sending Val to search for Tormund and the assassination attempt, off page for us so far.

The only plotline George can go forward with straight from where we last saw it is Dothraki Sea and Slaver's Bay. I don't expect to read anything about CB events during or after the assassination attempt on Jon until at least a third in, if not halfway tWoW. Though we likely will get to see stuff at Eastwatch via Davos with Rickon.

 

[James Arryn]

Sorry if already stated; Ned could be ‘bone headed’ and impractical in personal situations, but in military circumstances like this, he was very cautious and methodical and would not have wasted men who will be needed for the next fight for survival.