King Maegor the Cool Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple diffferent accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I think you may have answered your own question. If Varys was interfering with Rhaegar's succession, then Yes, the most likely reason is that he was working to put someone else on the Iron Throne. But let's back up a step, please. Do we know that Varys actually interfered? What's the evidence for that? I must admit that that critical time period, from the tournament to the rebellion, is somewhat fuzzy in my mind, even after many rereads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Because Rhaegar was too obsessed with prophecy to actually make an effective king? Because he wasn't raised in the kind of environment Varys thought was needed? Because he couldn't manipulate Rhaegar? Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, BlackLightning, Ser Arthurs Dawn and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 If you believe Varys truly is ‘for the realm’, and that for him that means the people, this might be why. He might have thought of his role as ‘for the king’ before that, especially up to Harrenhal, and the horrors that followed might have taught him where his true responsibilities lie. It’s possible, it would make some sense for him to see Rhaegar vs. Aerys, in hindsight, as what should have been his priority vs. what he had understood his priority to be until that point, that in preserving the status quo (which would seem to ~ equal preserving peace) he in fact helped to lead towards chaos and disaster. If he is remotely who he has said he is in his more personal moments, the sacking of KL would have affected him much more than it did most of his fellow lords, ie not just for Elia and the babies, but in fact all the men, women and children who were abused and killed. It might have been a major turning point for him. If you believe he always had another agenda, then of course Rhaegar was his greatest obstacle and wormtonguing Aerys against him at every opportunity would be both fulfilling your job description (especially once Rhaegar does begin plannng to overthrow his father, however bloodlessly) and working towards getting Rhaegar out of the way. Convincing Aerys to name Viserys heir over Rhaegar as he was apparently contemplating would be completely in line with the kinds of moves he was making in ASoIaF. Haus Berlin and Ser Arthurs Dawn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 11 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point I don't believe that Varys is or ever was "for the realm". I think he is a schemer far more devious than Petyr Baelish, and every word that comes out of his mouth is dishonest and insincere. If Young Griff is actually a Blackfyre rather than Rhaegar's son (which I think is more likely than not), then it appears that Varys is neither pro-realm nor pro-Targaryen, but pro-Blackfyre. Letting the realm self-destruct to make it easy for the Blackfyres to swoop in and take the throne seems to be his thing. He murdered Kevan Lannister because Kevan was mending bad relations, bringing the realm back to peace, and Varys didn't want that. He wanted Cersei in charge, war and strife, to allow for Aegon's easy takeover. Destroying the realm first to make the realm stronger is not "for the realm". I don't know what Varys's motives are, but they are nothing good. Varys is a great villain, but almost certainly a villain. He's likely the "perfumed seneschal" that Quaithe warns about (not that I necessarily trust anything Quaithe says, either). And Ned Stark was right in thinking that Varys was the most dangerous person on King Robert's small council. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I think the simplest answer is that he already made the deal with Illyrio to put his son on the Iron Throne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 12 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple diffferent accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon? Varys was never "for the realm", not in the Abomination, and certainly not in the books. He feared that Rhaegar would make a decent king, so he sought to undermine him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 13 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple diffferent accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon? Rhaegar was not the better choice. If he even was the choice. We have no clue what changes he wanted to enact. It’s probably something the lords won’t like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 21 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple diffferent accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon? Hes not for the realm at that point innfact hes only 'for the realm' as he sees fit.as.in under the child he and his friend have had raised and will influence! No back then hes simply provimg his worth and growingnhos network and influence...he gains nothing in letting it suceed but he does lose face(or even his life) if he apparently.missed such a large conspiracy with soo many lords involved he cant risk someone else from all those lords being a traitor to the rebel cause and them being the one to bring aerys the news he apparently missed Edited February 4 by astarkchoice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, StarkTullies said: don't know what Varys's motives are, but they are nothing good. According to Conleth Hill, George told him that Varys is “ultimately, a good person”. So it seems that his monologue at the end of Dance does spell out his motivation and is meant as much for the readers as it is for Kevan. James Arryn, sweetsunray and astarkchoice 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: According to Conleth Hill, George told him that Varys is “ultimately, a good person”. So it seems that his monologue at the end of Dance does spell out his motivation and is meant as much for the readers as it is for Kevan. Okay thanks, I was not aware that Conleth Hill said that George Martin said that. Even if I accept that Varys thinks he has good intentions by raising a "perfect" king, creating war and destruction and suffering just to make it easier for this "good king" to step in still qualifies him as a villain in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: I think the simplest answer is that he already made the deal with Illyrio to put his son on the Iron Throne. Not sure son was even born then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, astarkchoice said: Not sure son was even born then But the plan could’ve been in motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: But the plan could’ve been in motion. Hmmm maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: According to Conleth Hill, George told him that Varys is “ultimately, a good person”. So it seems that his monologue at the end of Dance does spell out his motivation and is meant as much for the readers as it is for Kevan. What constitutes a good person, though? Their actions? Their motivations? Their views? Also, GRRM said “ultimately”, meaning that it’s not going to be very clear. So I don’t doubt that Varys will either do or encourage terrible things to happen, much to his own remorse. Morte 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 5 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: According to Conleth Hill, George told him that Varys is “ultimately, a good person”. So it seems that his monologue at the end of Dance does spell out his motivation and is meant as much for the readers as it is for Kevan. You’ve been dropping these gems of info lately, thanks for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 8 hours ago, StarkTullies said: Even if I accept that Varys thinks he has good intentions by raising a "perfect" king, creating war and destruction and suffering just to make it easier for this "good king" to step in still qualifies him as a villain in my mind. I guess his idea is to completely rip out the rotten tree and plant a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 22 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple diffferent accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon? Varys first loyalty is to the king , there isn't any proof that at that time that Aerys was just another bizarre royal . Varys second loyalty is to the realm , there isn't any proof that there was wide spread dissatisfaction with Aerys . Varys third loyalty is to his own beliefs , good intentions or not there was going to be push back and people will die . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 We don't really know what Rhaegar was up to in those days. We might get some clues from Gormon Peake, Brynden Rivers, Egg, Dunk, and Lord Ambrose. This is what it looks to me. There were already traitors who planned Harrenhal and the Targaryens crashed the party. The ring leaders were Robert, Jon Arryn, and Rickard Stark. Hoster was unsure. Varys caught wind of it and informed the Targaryens. Varys was loyal to his king. Aerys. Not Rhaegar. I would also assume Varys helped get Rhaella and the heir, Viserys, to Dragonstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said: We don't really know what Rhaegar was up to in those days. We might get some clues from Gormon Peake, Brynden Rivers, Egg, Dunk, and Lord Ambrose. This is what it looks to me. There were already traitors who planned Harrenhal and the Targaryens crashed the party. The ring leaders were Robert, Jon Arryn, and Rickard Stark. Hoster was unsure. Varys caught wind of it and informed the Targaryens. Varys was loyal to his king. Aerys. Not Rhaegar. I would also assume Varys helped get Rhaella and the heir, Viserys, to Dragonstone. I’m pretty sure it was Rhaegar who organized Harrenhal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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