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What reason(s) would Varys have to betray Rhaegar?


Lady Stonehearts Simp

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Westeros had a sound economy. People, great and small, were happy. It was a time of peace and plenty. A revolution would only cause poverty, pain, and suffering. Varys is a practical man. Aerys offers continued peace and economic abundance. His competitors are only offering moral and political ideologies. Any man who truly cared about the people would support keeping Aerys on the throne.  

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1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

Any man who truly cared about the people would support keeping Aerys on the throne.  

The lunatic plotted to burn down all of Kings Landing and hundreds of thousands of innocents with it.  Year earlier, he was so impressed by Tywin Lannister's mass-murders of wiping out two entire houses (including their smallfolk) that he chose Tywin to serve as his Hand, and that was back when Aerys was simply evil, before being evil and mad when he became so turned on by burning innocent people alive that he satisfied himself by brutally beating and raping his sister.  Aerys was the one of the most deplorable people in the history of Westeros and he needed to go.

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2 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

The lunatic plotted to burn down all of Kings Landing and hundreds of thousands of innocents with it.  Year earlier, he was so impressed by Tywin Lannister's mass-murders of wiping out two entire houses (including their smallfolk) that he chose Tywin to serve as his Hand, and that was back when Aerys was simply evil, before being evil and mad when he became so turned on by burning innocent people alive that he satisfied himself by brutally beating and raping his sister.  Aerys was the one of the most deplorable people in the history of Westeros and he needed to go.

He killed a LOT fewer people than, say, Aegon the Conqueror. Actually, his kill count would be pretty middling for kings. But that doesn’t alter th fact that he was a paranoid lunatic by the time of the Rebellion.

 

That said, this is GRRM. So that means there is likely something more to Aerys than meets the eye. I’m betting that he was haunted by prophetic dreams too, and/or one or two of the crazy sounding things he said or wanted to do had legit, important foundations to them that we won’t learn about until late in the story. 

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42 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Agreed. It’s hinted pretty strongly that he funded it, through Oswell Whent. 

Honestly, I think Rhaegar didn’t plan the coup exactly, I think he realized that the great lords of Westeros were all marrying each other for a reason, and he planned on hijacking the plan to make it about deposing Aerys and not destroying the Targaryens. And if it wasn’t for his running away with Lyanna, I think he would’ve pulled it off.

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31 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Honestly, I think Rhaegar didn’t plan the coup exactly, I think he realized that the great lords of Westeros were all marrying each other for a reason, and he planned on hijacking the plan to make it about deposing Aerys and not destroying the Targaryens. And if it wasn’t for his running away with Lyanna, I think he would’ve pulled it off.

That’s certainly a possible explanation. I’m not 100% sure what the difference between that and the more generally accepted version would tell us about anyone involved, so I’m not sure what the point of writing it would be. Unless you think it makes him more evidently trying to stay as loyal as he can while still addressing the immediate problem?

edit: or makes Rhaegar look more politically canny, if possibly less single-mindedly devoted to duty?

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4 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Westeros had a sound economy. People, great and small, were happy. It was a time of peace and plenty. A revolution would only cause poverty, pain, and suffering. Varys is a practical man. Aerys offers continued peace and economic abundance. His competitors are only offering moral and political ideologies. Any man who truly cared about the people would support keeping Aerys on the throne.  

No he was a terrible king even when we ignore the cruelty, paronia, wife abuse and  general being mad as a rat in an outhouse.

He had to to be talked out of stupid projects like a huge underwater river in dorne, a new white marble repacement for kingslanding, a 2nd wall further north of the nightswatch one, claiming the stepstones (war with myr,lys and tyrosh at least) and the absolute  hammering westeros would have gotten over trying to wage war with bravos over some gold he owned the iron bank !!! 

He got jealous of tywins competence and his bride ...thus encouraged people to mock his hand undermining his best servant and inna roundabout what his own authority, tore out iln paynes toungue thus discouraging open discussion of issues at court. Openly prodding the lord of one of the 7 kingoms and its wealthiest .....like taunting a cobra and could have boiled over into civil war!! He strangled trade st his major ports to blame tywinnthen removed them himself for praise!!

He like an idiot took sides in the never ending bracken blackwood feud, sent gold and arms to volantis thus involving westeros in free cities politics (which opens a 2 way door) and of course the economoc and political mess he created provokwd the defiance of duskendale and the smallfolk to hide the kingswood brotherhood!

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4 hours ago, James Arryn said:

He killed a LOT fewer people than, say, Aegon the Conqueror. Actually, his kill count would be pretty middling for kings.

I agree, and for the record, I hate Aegon the Conqueror.  Many people rate him as one of the best Westeros kings; I rank him as one of the worst.  Even if the argument is made that burning Harrenhal (innocent slaves and everyone else included) and the Field of Fire is all for the "greater good" of realm unification, that argument can't be made for Dorne.  The Dorne genocide wasn't about unification; that was about revenge and mass-murder, and the Targaryens began their legacy true to their family words.

But Aerys tried to kill of all Kings Landing.  If successful, he would have killed more people than any previous king, and intentions matter.  The only reason he didn't is because Jaime killed him.

4 hours ago, James Arryn said:

That said, this is GRRM. So that means there is likely something more to Aerys than meets the eye. I’m betting that he was haunted by prophetic dreams too, and/or one or two of the crazy sounding things he said or wanted to do had legit, important foundations to them that we won’t learn about until late in the story. 

I think that's possible, but an overload of shocks and twists is too much, and I hope it doesn't go that way.   I also don't think George Martin is writing a story where the incestuous Valyrian-supremist dragon-riders who think they are gods actually are the heroes of the story, with a twist that none of the "bad Targaryens" were really bad after all.  I think Aerys is as terrible as he seems.

It is generally claimed that Aerys wasn't mad in his younger years, which is why I referenced Young Aerys's great admiration for Tywin Lannister's tyranny.  I also referenced Aerys choosing Tywin as Hand because the post I responded to claimed that Aerys was good for all people, great and small, but the ghosts of the Reynes and Tarbeck smallfolk might disagree if they were alive to do so.  Aerys was evil long before he was mad.

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8 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree, and for the record, I hate Aegon the Conqueror.  Many people rate him as one of the best Westeros kings; I rank him as one of the worst.  Even if the argument is made that burning Harrenhal (innocent slaves and everyone else included) and the Field of Fire is all for the "greater good" of realm unification, that argument can't be made for Dorne.  The Dorne genocide wasn't about unification; that was about revenge and mass-murder, and the Targaryens began their legacy true to their family words.

Thank you for saying this. It is refreshing to hear. I think people are taking this 'Aegon knew about the Others' prophecy for granted and so painting him as someone who just 'did what needed to be done'.

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On 2/3/2023 at 6:54 PM, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple diffferent accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon?

Rhaegar was guilty of the worst treason if he was planning to overthrow his father.  Maybe he was planning to do that.  One might ask why, given he is the heir and Aerys was not in good health.  Because Rhaegar was passed over in favor of Prince Viserys.  A decision from Aerys which I agree with.   Yeah, so Rhaegar would try to overturn the king's will.  Varys is a good servant of the realm and of King Aerys.  He should oppose Rhaegar.   

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1 hour ago, James West said:

Rhaegar was guilty of the worst treason if he was planning to overthrow his father.  Maybe he was planning to do that.  One might ask why, given he is the heir and Aerys was not in good health.  Because Rhaegar was passed over in favor of Prince Viserys.  A decision from Aerys which I agree with.   Yeah, so Rhaegar would try to overturn the king's will.  Varys is a good servant of the realm and of King Aerys.  He should oppose Rhaegar.   

Aerys was a mad man and a monster. Completely meriting being overthrown

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On 2/5/2023 at 12:41 PM, Darth Sidious said:

Westeros had a sound economy. People, great and small, were happy. It was a time of peace and plenty. A revolution would only cause poverty, pain, and suffering. Varys is a practical man. Aerys offers continued peace and economic abundance. His competitors are only offering moral and political ideologies. Any man who truly cared about the people would support keeping Aerys on the throne.  

I actually agree with this, which is a rarity with DS posts. Aerys was a kook, but there is little to indicate he was actually mismanaging things prior to the Rhaegar-Lyanna incident. Duskendale had happened, but really, this is comparable in its ruthlessness to Castamere, which earned Tywin widespread praise. And sure, the successes of Aerys's early reign might be credited to Tywin, but does it matter?

Overthrowing Aerys could turn a prosperous, peaceful realm into a wrecked one fairly quickly.

If Aerys really was a ticking timebomb, and those in court knew it, perhaps the realm would have benefited from a "palace coup" in which Rhaegar took over the reins of power from Aerys, acting as Hand, say, or event regent, with Aerys left to do whatever it was he was interested in. And maybe that's what Rhaegar was trying to line up, sounding out the great lords to see if they would tolerate such an outcome. But perhaps he had something more spectacular in mind, such as outright rebellion (albeit I think this unlikely).

Or perhaps Varys was actually acting with intention to support Rhaegar's bid for power. By persuading Aerys to show himself openly - and therefore make the realm aware how nuts he was, something previously only known to his inner circle - the need for a change at the top might be apparent to the attendees at Harrenhal, and might actually bolster support for Rhaegar. Even while appearing to be completely loyal to Aerys, Varys might therefore be acting in support of the opposition, by giving Aerys rope to hang himself. 

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1 hour ago, Adelstein said:

I actually agree with this, which is a rarity with DS posts. Aerys was a kook, but there is little to indicate he was actually mismanaging things prior to the Rhaegar-Lyanna incident. Duskendale had happened, but really, this is comparable in its ruthlessness to Castamere, which earned Tywin widespread praise. And sure, the successes of Aerys's early reign might be credited to Tywin, but does it matter?

Overthrowing Aerys could turn a prosperous, peaceful realm into a wrecked one fairly quickly.

If Aerys really was a ticking timebomb, and those in court knew it, perhaps the realm would have benefited from a "palace coup" in which Rhaegar took over the reins of power from Aerys, acting as Hand, say, or event regent, with Aerys left to do whatever it was he was interested in. And maybe that's what Rhaegar was trying to line up, sounding out the great lords to see if they would tolerate such an outcome. But perhaps he had something more spectacular in mind, such as outright rebellion (albeit I think this unlikely).

Or perhaps Varys was actually acting with intention to support Rhaegar's bid for power. By persuading Aerys to show himself openly - and therefore make the realm aware how nuts he was, something previously only known to his inner circle - the need for a change at the top might be apparent to the attendees at Harrenhal, and might actually bolster support for Rhaegar. Even while appearing to be completely loyal to Aerys, Varys might therefore be acting in support of the opposition, by giving Aerys rope to hang himself. 

No we already covered he wasnt a great king and had to be talked outta even worse decisions.

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2 hours ago, Adelstein said:

I actually agree with this, which is a rarity with DS posts. Aerys was a kook, but there is little to indicate he was actually mismanaging things prior to the Rhaegar-Lyanna incident. Duskendale had happened, but really, this is comparable in its ruthlessness to Castamere, which earned Tywin widespread praise. And sure, the successes of Aerys's early reign might be credited to Tywin, but does it matter?

Overthrowing Aerys could turn a prosperous, peaceful realm into a wrecked one fairly quickly.

If Aerys really was a ticking timebomb, and those in court knew it, perhaps the realm would have benefited from a "palace coup" in which Rhaegar took over the reins of power from Aerys, acting as Hand, say, or event regent, with Aerys left to do whatever it was he was interested in. And maybe that's what Rhaegar was trying to line up, sounding out the great lords to see if they would tolerate such an outcome. But perhaps he had something more spectacular in mind, such as outright rebellion (albeit I think this unlikely).

Or perhaps Varys was actually acting with intention to support Rhaegar's bid for power. By persuading Aerys to show himself openly - and therefore make the realm aware how nuts he was, something previously only known to his inner circle - the need for a change at the top might be apparent to the attendees at Harrenhal, and might actually bolster support for Rhaegar. Even while appearing to be completely loyal to Aerys, Varys might therefore be acting in support of the opposition, by giving Aerys rope to hang himself. 

See that could make sense. Thinking about it. There is no way he could predicted what Rhaegar was going to do.

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Varys does what he thinks is in the best interest of the people and keeping Aerys in power served the well-being of the people.  It is that simple.  Aerys is but a small cog in the great wheel that is the Targaryen Dynasty.  Targaryen authority kept peace and order throughout Westeros.  Belief in the monarchy give people comfort and stability.  Westeros, if it had to, could afford to suffer Aerys even if he goes insane.  Targaryen rule is reliable government.  As reliable as the sun rises and sets.  The Targaryens are an institution. 

Varys has been proven right.  The success of Robert's Rebellion was the worst thing that ever happened to Westeros.  The removal of the Targaryen Dynasty is a social and economic upheaval which Westeros has not fully recovered from.  Rhaegar was an idealists whose plans may destabilize Westeros and driven the economy into the ground.  Though I think the reason why Rhaegar would consider overthrowing his father only if he was removed from the line of succession.  Think about what @James West is saying.  It is beyond stupidity for Rhaegar to upset order if he was already the next in line to inherit.  Aerys was not going to last long.  It was just a matter of patience.  Westeros was at peace.  The people were fat and fed.  There was no emergency.  Rhaegar had the luxury of time.  If time was on his side.  But if Viserys was chosen to succeed then Rhaegar would have reason to consider a coup. 

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1 hour ago, Roswell said:

Varys does what he thinks is in the best interest of the people and keeping Aerys in power served the well-being of the people.  It is that simple.  Aerys is but a small cog in the great wheel that is the Targaryen Dynasty.  Targaryen authority kept peace and order throughout Westeros.  Belief in the monarchy give people comfort and stability.  Westeros, if it had to, could afford to suffer Aerys even if he goes insane.  Targaryen rule is reliable government.  As reliable as the sun rises and sets.  The Targaryens are an institution. 

Varys has been proven right.  The success of Robert's Rebellion was the worst thing that ever happened to Westeros.  The removal of the Targaryen Dynasty is a social and economic upheaval which Westeros has not fully recovered from.  Rhaegar was an idealists whose plans may destabilize Westeros and driven the economy into the ground.  Though I think the reason why Rhaegar would consider overthrowing his father only if he was removed from the line of succession.  Think about what @James West is saying.  It is beyond stupidity for Rhaegar to upset order if he was already the next in line to inherit.  Aerys was not going to last long.  It was just a matter of patience.  Westeros was at peace.  The people were fat and fed.  There was no emergency.  Rhaegar had the luxury of time.  If time was on his side.  But if Viserys was chosen to succeed then Rhaegar would have reason to consider a coup. 

The longer Aerys was on the throne the longer had to do something like what he did to Rickard and Brandon. Murder 2 high lords for some trumped up charges. In the case of RR, it was because they dared to be outraged that the crown Prince ran off with their daughter/sister. Aerys was a timebomb waiting to go off, and unfortunately Rhaegar’s obsession with prophecy caused him to light the fuse.

 

I still think Lyanna and Rhaegar told Benjen but Benjen couldn’t or didn’t tell anyone until it was far too late, but that’s just a hunch.

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On 2/3/2023 at 6:54 PM, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Let’s just say for the sake of the argument, that Rhaegar was indeed planning on overthrowing his father. And the Tourney at Harrenhal was where Rhaegar planned to discuss it with the great lords. Why would Varys interfere? Aerys is, by multiple different accounts, insane by this point. If Varys was indeed “for the realm” by this point, Rhaegar was clearly the better option. Was he already planting the seems for fAegon?

I'm not saying that he wouldn't undermine Rhaegar.  But what positive evidence do we have that he did undermine Rhaegar?

We are told that Aegon summoned Varys when he became suspicious of Rhaegar.  But did Varys actually fan the flames of his paranoia when he arrived?

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