HOTD Musings

[The Bard of Banefort]

With S1 behind us, I thought it might be fun to have a general thread where we can have an ongoing conversation about HOTD.

I’ll start: I saw it pointed out that Rhaenyra stopped wearing the necklace Daemon gave her after she hooked up with Criston. However, she didn’t start wearing it again after she married Daemon. Perhaps it was supposed to signify her growing up, but it was Valyrian steel, so it’s still a curious decision. Regardless, I expect to see the necklace brought up again at some point. 

Spoiler

Maybe after Daemon’s death?

 

[Lord Varys]

I was wondering whether George's recent longer NAB post about Casterly Rock might not necessarily signify he has written (much) material set at Casterly Rock for TWoW or ADoS but rather reflect talks and info dumps he gave the producers of HotD.

One reason I'm less than lukewarm about the Ironborn plot making it to the show is that I don't want to lay eyes ever again on that silly Casterly Rock travesty GoT gave us.

But one hopes and imagines that HotD would give Casterly Rock a complete overhaul if they were including it as a setting. And in context it makes sense to have it in the show, not just because of the Ironborn plot, but also because the Lannisters are - quite deliberately, one imagines - the great house the show fleshed out the most after the extended royal family, the Hightowers, and the Strongs. Jason Lannister, especially, is likely a character people are going to remember for his interactions with both Rhaenyra and Viserys I, and Tyland never went anywhere (although he isn't particularly charismatic or interesting so far).

The audience might be interested to learn who he ended up marrying, and Johanna Westerling also has the potential to be an interesting character - I, for one, would like them to portray her as a forceful and decisive woman who unsuccessfully tries to convince her husband to declare for Rhaenyra.

Something like that would be enough to justify a depiction of Casterly Rock. But, of course, the later Ironborn plot would also allow them to focus more on Johanna's martial abilities as well as showing Lannisport and Kayce.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One reason I'm less than lukewarm about the Ironborn plot making it to the show is that I don't want to lay eyes ever again on that silly Casterly Rock travesty GoT gave us.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought that GoT's version of Casterly Rock looked more like Highgarden than their own version of Highgarden.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Ted_Nasmith_A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Highgarden.jpg

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Casterly_Rock?file=Casterly-rock.png

https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Highgarden?file=704+Highgarden.png

Edited February 9, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 2/9/2023 at 3:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

I was wondering whether George's recent longer NAB post about Casterly Rock might not necessarily signify he has written (much) material set at Casterly Rock for TWoW or ADoS but rather reflect talks and info dumps he gave the producers of HotD.

Probably. I suppose it’s too much to hope that he’s working on DnE or FnB either? 

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Probably. I suppose it’s too much to hope that he’s working on DnE or FnB either? 

While some Dunk & Egg story might eventually be set at Casterly Rock - visit to Lady Rohanne Lannister, say - chances that he would focus entire paragraphs of FaB II or III on Casterly Rock doesn't strike one as very likely.

[EggBlue]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

I was wondering whether George's recent longer NAB post about Casterly Rock might not necessarily signify he has written (much) material set at Casterly Rock for TWoW or ADoS but rather reflect talks and info dumps he gave the producers of HotD.

I doubt they change the castle completely. Most likely, they will only add a few details. otherwise, if retconning castles is an option, I'm all for a new Winterfell  

anyways, it'll be nice to see lady Joanna and lady Sam from earlier in the series, especially since lady Sam is in a terrible situation, being married to the enemies of her house. And later, she singlehandedly stopped the war( the Hightower boy wanted to continue, didn't he?) 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Probably. I suppose it’s too much to hope that he’s working on DnE or FnB either? 

Dunk and Egg are nowhere near Casterly Rock right now in the story, though. They're actually going in the opposite direction. 

 

28 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I doubt they change the castle completely.

Given that HOTD is in the same canon as GoT I guess they have to use the original designs, for the most part.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I have the young Alicent and Rhaenyra Funko Pops now, and they’re very cute. Surprisingly, they haven’t unveiled any new ones since the show ended, which is pretty unusual for Funko. Plus, fangirls love buying useless plastic crap (I know because I’m a fangirl who loves useless plastic crap). Maybe they’re just overrepresented on HOTD Twitter, but still. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Dunk and Egg are nowhere near Casterly Rock right now in the story, though. They're actually going in the opposite direction. 

 

Given that HOTD is in the same canon as GoT I guess they have to use the original designs, for the most part.

They’ll probably fight the Ironborn after they leave Winterfell, which could lead to Casterly Rock afterwards. He’d only be writing about that now if he were writing several novellas in a row though.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I doubt they change the castle completely. Most likely, they will only add a few details. otherwise, if retconning castles is an option, I'm all for a new Winterfell

Pretty sure retconning Casterly Rock would be something George would want. GoT's Casterly Rock was an utter disgrace.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

anyways, it'll be nice to see lady Joanna and lady Sam from earlier in the series, especially since lady Sam is in a terrible situation, being married to the enemies of her house. And later, she singlehandedly stopped the war( the Hightower boy wanted to continue, didn't he?) 

Lady Sam should be featured prominently, one imagines, as Lord Ormund's wife. They have to properly introduce Daeron now, so we are very likely to get multiple scenes in Oldtown and the Hightower. I imagine they might start with the death (of old age/sickness) of Otto's brother or reference that he has recently died, introducing Ormund, his wife Lady Sam, his son Lyonel, and Daeron (Lyonel's younger brothers can be omitted as one is on the Arbor and the youngest, Garmund, at Highgarden).

Lady Sam plays a crucial role in helping to end the war, but Lyonel wasn't really in a good position to continue it, anyway. And another version of events explain him giving in with Lady Tyrell threatening to harm Garmund should he not fall in line (one imagines that if the show gets to this thing it will combine both).

However, if they include Lady Sam it would be rather interesting to see how her pro-Black views play out this early in the war. One could present the Ormund and his family as generally not that eager to go to war for Alicent and Otto with only Blood and Cheese starting to turn things around for them. Also, of course, if Daeron will be a reluctant warrior/general, then he might be pretty close to Lady Sam who only ends up turning to Lyonel after Ormund is dead.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pretty sure retconning Casterly Rock would be something George would want. GoT's Casterly Rock was an utter disgrace.

Maybe Casterly Rock as envisioned by George is difficult to pull off from a technical perspective? Without using green screen and tons of CGI, I mean?

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Maybe Casterly Rock as envisioned by George is difficult to pull off from a technical perspective? Without using green screen and tons of CGI, I mean?

It is a gigantic rock, how can it be difficult? I mean, you would not use that many outside shots or views from above, anyway.

The size of Casterly Rock's interior would likely be larger than that of Harrenhal - but they depict Harrenhal, too, so they should also get Casterly Rock right.

[EggBlue]

guys! you NEED to see this! lol.... especially the ending: "actually all you really need is a Stark with two working hands"

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a gigantic rock, how can it be difficult?

I was thinking more about the interiors. Since it’s a castle inside of a rock, one that belongs to the richest family in Westeros, it should, in an ideal scenario, be depicted accordingly. Personally, I found both High Tide and Storm’s End rather bleak and dreary.

Although that might just be me having the impressive images from TWOIAF in my head.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I was thinking more about the interiors. Since it’s a castle inside of a rock, one that belongs to the richest family in Westeros, it should, in an ideal scenario, be depicted accordingly. Personally, I found both High Tide and Storm’s End rather bleak and dreary.

It seems as if George imagines - unrealistically, of course - that some gigantic partially man-made cave in a rock can actually look like a proper castle. Many sections would lack windows and proper means of ventillation. Even the largest halls and things like the Golden Gallerys could at best have windows only on one side.

Storm's End I liked from the outside in HotD, High Tide's interior was indeed kind of strange, especially the weird large, not really private but supposedly private room where Corlys and Rhaenys had their talks. The exterior wasn't that bad, though, although I think the precious marble Corlys used should have been whiter and brither. And the castle should have looked newer and more splendid.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They’ll probably fight the Ironborn after they leave Winterfell, which could lead to Casterly Rock afterwards. He’d only be writing about that now if he were writing several novellas in a row though.

The impression of the She-Wolves story I have would indicate that the fight against the Ironborn is done due to Lord Beron's grievous wound that's, apparently, slowly killing him. Dunk & Egg might help stop a succession struggle/war and/or some assassinations, etc., but I doubt they'll give the gang at Winterfell enough stability to continue the fight against the Ironborn. I'd rather imagine that Tybolt and/or Gerold will deal with Lord Dagon. It is also not out of the question that the royal and Velaryon fleet commanded by Bloodraven or the (Velaryon) Master of Ships take a hand in the matter, now that the Blackfyre cause has suffered a most severe blow at Whitewalls.

All that complaining about Aerys I and Bloodraven doing nothing wasn't exactly unjustified as the Second Blackfyre Rebellion proved.

In context one also imagines that they would want to continue to the Wall after visiting Winterfell. From there they could then take a ship at Eastwatch and sail down the coast, visiting Braavos, Gulltown and the Vale on the way to court (I really want them to get there to show us Aerys I, Aelinor, Rhaegel, his wife and children, etc.). But they could also get side-tracked and end up in Essos due to some pirate activity, etc.

[Annara Snow]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

However, if they include Lady Sam it would be rather interesting to see how her pro-Black views play out this early in the war. One could present the Ormund and his family as generally not that eager to go to war for Alicent and Otto with only Blood and Cheese starting to turn things around for them. Also, of course, if Daeron will be a reluctant warrior/general, then he might be pretty close to Lady Sam who only ends up turning to Lyonel after Ormund is dead.

Hobart in the show was pushing Otto to make Aegon king.

On 2/9/2023 at 9:12 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

The audience might be interested to learn who he ended up marrying, and Johanna Westerling also has the potential to be an interesting character - I, for one, would like them to portray her as a forceful and decisive woman who unsuccessfully tries to convince her husband to declare for Rhaenyra.

That would make no sense. Tyland Lannister is on the Green Council and one of the people who performed the coup. Of course his twin brother isn't going to declare the opposite. (Erryk and Arryk are an outlier)

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Hobart in the show was pushing Otto to make Aegon king.

Otto's brother should be dead by now, and there is no automatism there that his son Ormund would fall over himself throwing his city and his people into a potentially devastating succession war in light of the fact that, traditionally, House Hightower tried to stay out of such things. Now, of course, eventually Ormund would do that, but since he is but Otto's nephew and Alicent's cousin - and now the actual head of House Hightower - he might not be eager to be pushed around by his lesser relations who now presume themselves to be royalty.

Also, of course, because he married a woman whose family seems to be stalwart Blacks. Lady Sam might openly oppose Ormund going to war, meaning her objections might have to be overcome.

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

That would make no sense. Tyland Lannister is on the Green Council and one of the people who performed the coup. Of course his twin brother isn't going to declare the opposite. (Erryk and Arryk are an outlier)

The same issue. Tyland isn't Jason and merely a lesser scion of House Lannister. Now, of course, in the show Jason Lannister has his own reason to dislike Rhaenyra - and I'm sure they will play up that if they bother with the Lannister plotline - but his wife, Lady Johanna Westerling, is a person in her own right who might have her own political views. She could easily enough like the idea of a Queen Regnant. Hell, she could even tease Jason by saying he should thank Rhaenyra for spurning since they would not be (happily?) married if Rhaenyra had married Jason.

The textual basis (or foundation) for such a plot could be the fact that Tyland Lannister as Hand doesn't really send his sister-in-law any help whatsoever dealing with the Ironborn crisis - this could indicate that he wasn't exactly close to Johanna. I mean, the guy ended up putting the brat of the queen who tortured and mutilated him before his own family and house. That does send a message.

Also, of course, Jason Lannister's support for Aegon II was at best lukewarm. He couldn't even muster 10,000 men for his king - before the Ironborn attack! That's not loyalty or conviction, it is little more than a token force if you consider the actual military potential of the West. The show could explain this reluctance by Johanna telling Jason they should play things safe - support Aegon II because Tyland is at court to carry enough favor with the Greens that they might collect even more rewards later on. But not sticking their necks out to the degree that Rhaenyra and Daemon start to view the Lannisters as their sworn enemies - people they would not like to make peace with if the Blacks were winning the war.

[The Bard of Banefort]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems as if George imagines - unrealistically, of course - that some gigantic partially man-made cave in a rock can actually look like a proper castle. Many sections would lack windows and proper means of ventillation. Even the largest halls and things like the Golden Gallerys could at best have windows only on one side.

Storm's End I liked from the outside in HotD, High Tide's interior was indeed kind of strange, especially the weird large, not really private but supposedly private room where Corlys and Rhaenys had their talks. The exterior wasn't that bad, though, although I think the precious marble Corlys used should have been whiter and brither. And the castle should have looked newer and more splendid.

The impression of the She-Wolves story I have would indicate that the fight against the Ironborn is done due to Lord Beron's grievous wound that's, apparently, slowly killing him. Dunk & Egg might help stop a succession struggle/war and/or some assassinations, etc., but I doubt they'll give the gang at Winterfell enough stability to continue the fight against the Ironborn. I'd rather imagine that Tybolt and/or Gerold will deal with Lord Dagon. It is also not out of the question that the royal and Velaryon fleet commanded by Bloodraven or the (Velaryon) Master of Ships take a hand in the matter, now that the Blackfyre cause has suffered a most severe blow at Whitewalls.

All that complaining about Aerys I and Bloodraven doing nothing wasn't exactly unjustified as the Second Blackfyre Rebellion proved.

In context one also imagines that they would want to continue to the Wall after visiting Winterfell. From there they could then take a ship at Eastwatch and sail down the coast, visiting Braavos, Gulltown and the Vale on the way to court (I really want them to get there to show us Aerys I, Aelinor, Rhaegel, his wife and children, etc.). But they could also get side-tracked and end up in Essos due to some pirate activity, etc.

I suppose, but we’re told through Victarion that Dagon defeated the Starks and Lannisters before being defeated by the Targaryens. So I’m guessing that the Starks are in retreat once Dunk and Egg reach Winterfell. Or perhaps they’ve already left and word reaches WF that Beron is mortally wounded. I don’t think GRRM would have placed so much emphasis on Dagon Greyjoy if we weren’t going to see some of the battles. My headcanon is that after seeing how much people are suffering, Egg will return to Summerhall (perhaps by ship after reaching the Wall, as you suggested) and convince Maekar to rally his forces against the Ironborn. (There have also been many references to Maekar “sulking at Summerhall,” so I could easily see this providing an impetus for Egg to confront his father).

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I suppose, but we’re told through Victarion that Dagon defeated the Starks and Lannisters before being defeated by the Targaryens. So I’m guessing that the Starks are in retreat once Dunk and Egg reach Winterfell. Or perhaps they’ve already left and word reaches WF that Beron is mortally wounded. I don’t think GRRM would have placed so much emphasis on Dagon Greyjoy if we weren’t going to see some of the battles. My headcanon is that after seeing how much people are suffering, Egg will return to Summerhall (perhaps by ship after reaching the Wall, as you suggested) and convince Maekar to rally his forces against the Ironborn. (There have also been many references to Maekar “sulking at Summerhall,” so I could easily see this providing an impetus for Egg to confront his father).

Maekar would lack the ships.

At best I could think about Dunk & Egg going to court and telling Bloodraven and Aerys I about the problems the Starks have been facing ... but I honestly don't think Dagon Greyjoy is much of an issue. The guy just raided some coastal villages and towns. That's not a 'big threat'. It could easily be that Beron Stark gets injured by some arrow, like Prince Aemon met his end, say.

[Annara Snow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Otto's brother should be dead by now, and there is no automatism there that his son Ormund would fall over himself throwing his city and his people into a potentially devastating succession war in light of the fact that, traditionally, House Hightower tried to stay out of such things. Now, of course, eventually Ormund would do that, but since he is but Otto's nephew and Alicent's cousin - and now the actual head of House Hightower - he might not be eager to be pushed around by his lesser relations who now presume themselves to be royalty.

Also, of course, because he married a woman whose family seems to be stalwart Blacks. Lady Sam might openly oppose Ormund going to war, meaning her objections might have to be overcome.

The same issue. Tyland isn't Jason and merely a lesser scion of House Lannister. Now, of course, in the show Jason Lannister has his own reason to dislike Rhaenyra - and I'm sure they will play up that if they bother with the Lannister plotline - but his wife, Lady Johanna Westerling, is a person in her own right who might have her own political views. She could easily enough like the idea of a Queen Regnant. Hell, she could even tease Jason by saying he should thank Rhaenyra for spurning since they would not be (happily?) married if Rhaenyra had married Jason.

The textual basis (or foundation) for such a plot could be the fact that Tyland Lannister as Hand doesn't really send his sister-in-law any help whatsoever dealing with the Ironborn crisis - this could indicate that he wasn't exactly close to Johanna. I mean, the guy ended up putting the brat of the queen who tortured and mutilated him before his own family and house. That does send a message.

Also, of course, Jason Lannister's support for Aegon II was at best lukewarm. He couldn't even muster 10,000 men for his king - before the Ironborn attack! That's not loyalty or conviction, it is little more than a token force if you consider the actual military potential of the West. The show could explain this reluctance by Johanna telling Jason they should play things safe - support Aegon II because Tyland is at court to carry enough favor with the Greens that they might collect even more rewards later on. But not sticking their necks out to the degree that Rhaenyra and Daemon start to view the Lannisters as their sworn enemies - people they would not like to make peace with if the Blacks were winning the war.

Cregan Stark's and Jeyne Arryn's support for the Blacks was also lukewarm, as was Borros Baratheon's for the Greens. Most of the great houses, apart from those with relatives on the two Targaryen sides, or those who just needed an excuse to do their thing like the Red Kraken, weren't doing much until the late stage of the war...when most of the dragons were dead. I don't think you need to look for reasons beyond "don't really care about the Targaryen in fighting, don't want our armies to get burned by dragons".