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@Ran I'm curious about the climate of King's Landing. Both for GoT and HOTD, southern locations were used for KL, and the city has a southern feel to it generally. But as I understand it, KL in the books is based on London, which has a cooler climate.  So what gives?

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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm curious about the climate of King's Landing. Both for GoT and HOTD, southern locations were used for KL, and the city has a southern feel to it generally. But as I understand it, KL in the books is based on London, which has a cooler climate.  So what gives?

I think part of it is that there were only two cities the size of King's Landing (500,000 people) in the 1400s, Beijing and Vijayanagar. So it's really just aesthetically and functionally modelled around London. And the capital had to be placed far south so it felt like a big deal that Ned was being summoned to the capital. 1991 George couldn't have King's Landing be far away from the cold and snowy north and have a cooler climate, so although he modelled the logistics of King's Landing on London as there weren't that many European medieval templates, he didn't maintain the climate requirements. Idk tho, that just seems like the most intuitive answer.

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

"Mad, bad, and dangerous to know" is what Caroline Lamb called Lord Byron. He was her lover at the time.

It's an age-old thing. 

 

 

I'm sarcastically setting up dialogue from a Simpsons joke. :)

I couldn't find a clip but here it is in text:
 

Bart: [about Jimbo Jones] What do you like about him? He's just a good-looking rebel who plays by his own rules.
Lisa and Laura: [sigh wistfully]

https://simpsonswiki.com/wiki/New_Kid_on_the_Block/Quotes

I left out the "Good looking" part because that would have made the sarcasm too obvious.

And m'lord, to quote Oscar Wilde, it would be hard to find someone who was not Lord Byron's lover at the time...

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

@Ran I'm curious about the climate of King's Landing. Both for GoT and HOTD, southern locations were used for KL, and the city has a southern feel to it generally. But as I understand it, KL in the books is based on London, which has a cooler climate.  So what gives?

Oh yeah that was an official change. Which I disagree with. They said they wanted to contrast a "Warm" King's Landing with a colder Winterfell. Because apparently it's just those two extremes with no Temperate zone in between. SMH...

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On 3/2/2023 at 4:32 AM, Ran said:

No plans for Rant and Rave threads going forward.

....nothing in House of the Dragon really merited a dedicated "Rant or Rave Thread Because We're So Angry About How This Went Off The Rails but We Can't Let Yelling Dominate the Entire Forum" ---- I mean there's highs and lows but overall it's been a very well received adaptation by most if not all of us. There's always a point or two to disagree with, as with anything, but nothing I need to...."veny my frustration" about to maintain my basic sanity in a world gone mad. 

No real need for that again.

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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

....nothing in House of the Dragon really merited a dedicated "Rant or Rave Thread Because We're So Angry About How This Went Off The Rails but We Can't Let Yelling Dominate the Entire Forum" ---- I mean there's highs and lows but overall it's been a very well received adaptation by most if not all of us. There's always a point or two to disagree with, as with anything, but nothing I need to...."veny my frustration" about to maintain my basic sanity in a world gone mad. 

No real need for that again.

Generally speaking, we’ve been a lot more critical of HOTD on this site than they are on places like Twitter. Definitely more than just a point or two. (When the show was airing, I saw someone on Reddit say this was the “least hypocritical” fan forum, since we criticize HOTD for the same things we criticized GOT for). And of course, there’s plenty to praise as well.

The reason why many of us wanted a R&R thread was to share criticism without bringing down the conversation for people who were enjoying the show. Also because complaining is fun :) If it wasn’t fun, no one would bother doing it.

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7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Oh yeah that was an official change. Which I disagree with. They said they wanted to contrast a "Warm" King's Landing with a colder Winterfell. Because apparently it's just those two extremes with no Temperate zone in between. SMH...

If Dorne is supposed to have warm Mediterranean climate, how and why would King's Landing, with its geographical placement and on top of it being on the sea coast, have London's climate? What's the climate of the Riverlands then? The Vale?!

I don't see how a cold climate would make any sense. Modelled after London in some respects doesn't mean it is London. 

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5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Generally speaking, we’ve been a lot more critical of HOTD on this site than they are on places like Twitter. Definitely more than just a point or two. (When the show was airing, I saw someone on Reddit say this was the “least hypocritical” fan forum, since we criticize HOTD for the same things we criticized GOT for). And of course, there’s plenty to praise as well.

The reason why many of us wanted a R&R thread was to share criticism without bringing down the conversation for people who were enjoying the show. Also because complaining is fun :) If it wasn’t fun, no one would bother doing it

Have you been to HotD Twitter in the last 5 months?! It's nothing but 1) arguing with each other and 2) incessant whining about the show and how "terrible" it is, and trying to act like "book purists" (which is hilarious when the book is Fire and Blood).

Team Black/"Targ nation" stans are constanly whining about how the show "whitewashed" the Greens, hating on Alicent and ranting that the show made her a victim and that she should be an evil power hungry stepmother, claiming that Olivia Cooke was miscast, hating on Miguel's wife because of the rumor that she suggested Alicent and Rhaenyra start off as friends, and complaining that the showrunners hate Daemon and demonize him, claiming he's not that bad in the book (which is funny because I'd say he's even worse in the book). Some have even called the show "Green propaganda". Meanwhile Team Green whine that the Blacks, specifically Rhaenyra, have been "whitewashed", that the show is aggressively pro-Black, complain because Aegon wasn’t seen with Sunfyre in season 1 and claim he isn't a rapist or thar bad in the book (also not true).

There's also legitimate complaints about some scenes and writing choices or the cinematography, but the ones ranring aren't coming from a place of legitimate criticism of the show quality 

A Rant and Rave thread about HotD is the last thing we need. You can just gp to Twitter for that. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

@Ran I'm curious about the climate of King's Landing. Both for GoT and HOTD, southern locations were used for KL, and the city has a southern feel to it generally. But as I understand it, KL in the books is based on London, which has a cooler climate.  So what gives?

I'd say KL is probably a bit warmer than London, but yes, it should still be temperate rather than sub-tropical or Mediterranean as seen on the show. As TDD says, they wanted a sharp contrast with Winterfell and the Wall, and so decided to go that way with it. 

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6 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Have you been to HotD Twitter in the last 5 months?! It's nothing but 1) arguing with each other and 2) incessant whining about the show and how "terrible" it is, and trying to act like "book purists" (which is hilarious when the book is Fire and Blood).

Team Black/"Targ nation" stans are constanly whining about how the show "whitewashed" the Greens, hating on Alicent and ranting that the show made her a victim and that she should be an evil power hungry stepmother, claiming that Olivia Cooke was miscast, hating on Miguel's wife because of the rumor that she suggested Alicent and Rhaenyra start off as friends, and complaining that the showrunners hate Daemon and demonize him, claiming he's not that bad in the book (which is funny because I'd say he's even worse in the book). Some have even called the show "Green propaganda". Meanwhile Team Green whine that the Blacks, specifically Rhaenyra, have been "whitewashed", that the show is aggressively pro-Black, complain because Aegon wasn’t seen with Sunfyre in season 1 and claim he isn't a rapist or thar bad in the book (also not true).

There's also legitimate complaints about some scenes and writing choices or the cinematography, but the ones ranring aren't coming from a place of legitimate criticism of the show quality 

A Rant and Rave thread about HotD is the last thing we need. You can just gp to Twitter for that. 

 

 

I guess I was distracted by all the Targ nation stanning for Team Black and Emma/Matt/Milly/the-greatest-and-most-beautiful-cast-in-history. Nevertheless, I think this is a better forum for real conversation.

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The fun thing with Daemon as portrayed in the show is that you get why he would have the hots for Rhaenyra and vice versa. Marriage within the family is the Targaryen thing to do, after all. And they show this - which I think is great because the only other incestuous match, Aegon-Helaena, is a clear failure (in a sense it is actually not that bad that they showed Aemond being interested in Helaena there).

But Daemon the man is just a big man-child. A whiny guy who cannot find his place in the world. He could have had more depth in the show if they had depicted his budding romance and subsequent marriage with Laena. What we see about that is clearly too little. Also, of course, there is also no development with him after he marries Rhaenyra and they settle on Dragonstone.

I'm kind of at a loss how anyone (women or men) could find the guy attractive if go to the character level. There is just childish whininess there, impotence, and a craving for his brother's love and admiration that cripples his ambition and ability to become a man in his own right. He is a second son in the true meaning of the word - one with a big mouth.

He never looks more ridiculous than when he beats up that poor messenger who told him his brother would finally support him.

As for Spike's Buffy: The guy was an interesting take on a vampire character - and how becoming one can twist your personality around. But the notion that this guy was actually mature and desirable as a person and not a complete whacko is nonsense. (At least not until season 7.)

And for all your mental health/hygiene: Just don't go to twitter for discussions on ASoIaF or GoT. You cannot properly do it there - not that the whole Greens vs. Blacks thing and all the shipping nonsense is not also ridiculous here - so all that happens is that you get mad because you read and react to a lot of nonsense.

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fun thing with Daemon as portrayed in the show is that you get why he would have the hots for Rhaenyra and vice versa. Marriage within the family is the Targaryen thing to do, after all. And they show this - which I think is great because the only other incestuous match, Aegon-Helaena, is a clear failure (in a sense it is actually not that bad that they showed Aemond being interested in Helaena there).

But Daemon the man is just a big man-child. A whiny guy who cannot find his place in the world. He could have had more depth in the show if they had depicted his budding romance and subsequent marriage with Laena. What we see about that is clearly too little. Also, of course, there is also no development with him after he marries Rhaenyra and they settle on Dragonstone.

I'm kind of at a loss how anyone (women or men) could find the guy attractive if go to the character level. There is just childish whininess there, impotence, and a craving for his brother's love and admiration that cripples his ambition and ability to become a man in his own right. He is a second son in the true meaning of the word - one with a big mouth.

He never looks more ridiculous than when he beats up that poor messenger who told him his brother would finally support him.

As for Spike's Buffy: The guy was an interesting take on a vampire character - and how becoming one can twist your personality around. But the notion that this guy was actually mature and desirable as a person and not a complete whacko is nonsense. (At least not until season 7.)

And for all your mental health/hygiene: Just don't go to twitter for discussions on ASoIaF or GoT. You cannot properly do it there - not that the whole Greens vs. Blacks thing and all the shipping nonsense is not also ridiculous here - so all that happens is that you get mad because you read and react to a lot of nonsense.

Something they did with D&R that I liked was how we saw that motherhood clearly forced Rhaenyra to grow up and start caring about other things beyond herself, whereas Daemon stayed the same. That was at its most evident during their fight after Viserys died. 

It wouldn’t surprise me if they try to do a redemption arc for Daemon through his relationship with Nettles, who does not fit his Valyrian supremacist’s idea of what a dragon rider should be. The downside is, him being “redeemed” means abandoning his wife and children.

Twitter is like Pandora’s box. You know you shouldn’t look inside, but if you lift the lid just a smidge. . . Alternatively, sometimes the chaos can be fun. It’s just that fun can turn into insanity on a dime.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something they did with D&R that I liked was how we saw that motherhood clearly forced Rhaenyra to grow up and start caring about other things beyond herself, whereas Daemon stayed the same. That was at its most evident during their fight after Viserys died.

When Viserys dies I think Daemon's anger fits his general character profile, although the buildup is lacking. Not only was Viserys a walking corpse the last time he saw him, so his death shouldn't come a surprise, but the show also offers no explanation as to why Rhaenyra and Daemon abandoned Viserys to the Greens, staying on Dragonstone for years.

Daemon's ridiculous accusation that Alicent murdered Viserys fits his personality ... as does his fear that Rhaenyra proves to be as weak a monarch as his brother has been.

Further down the road they could deal with their relationship changing considerably because Rhaenyra being the monarch - the new Viserys if you will - is going to be challenging to Daemon. Earlier he was her uncle and husband, now she is his queen. Also, part of the reason why he wanted Rhaenyra was because she was his brother's darling daughter. Also, of course - and as the leaks about the Alys Rivers' casting process seemed to indicate - Daemon once was his brother's heir, so there might be still some resentment over being passed over for her in him, resentment that bubbles to the surface when Rhaenyra doesn't fit Daemon's criteria for a proper monarch. Which is what we already saw in the season finale.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if they try to do a redemption arc for Daemon through his relationship with Nettles, who does not fit his Valyrian supremacist’s idea of what a dragon rider should be. The downside is, him being “redeemed” means abandoning his wife and children.

I don't think the Nettles thing can work as a redemption narrative because it just makes no sense. The man ends up not only abandoning Rhaenyra, his sons, and his daughters ... but also Nettles herself. Regardless what she is to him, be it daughter, lover, close friend, or all of the above ... his actions also ruined Nettles life, forcing her to live out a miserable existence in the mountains with some savages.

I've honestly no idea how they could tackle this story. They must elaborate this plot, add proper motivations to various characters (including Mysaria). I guess one step there is to have Nettles pretty early in the story, and thus have her develop an interesting dynamic with various other people at Rhaenyra's court.

(For instance, it could be interesting if Jace had a thing for her at first, and perhaps only dies in the Gullet because he comes to her aid, or something. That wouldn't make her popular with Rhaenyra.)

I'd imagine the (apparent) older age of Baela and Rhaena (even more so as the war progresses, taking more time than in the book since Joffrey, Aegon and Viserys have to be more than toddlers at crucial later points in the story) could also lead to them getting estranged from their father ... but Daemon abandoning Aegon is something that really warrants an explanation.

I don't think your notion of Nettles being no 'dragonlord descendant dragonrider' makes sense for the show. There we have black dragonriders, so Nettles is not going to be different from Laena, Laenor, or Daemon's own Baela. If they want to make Nettles (and Hugh and Ulf) to not fit in it must bw because of their low birth and otherwise colorful background (Nettles could be an active whore when she claims Sheepstealer). They cannot go with ethnicity or race there.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Twitter is like Pandora’s box. You know you shouldn’t look inside, but if you lift the lid just a smidge. . . Alternatively, sometimes the chaos can be fun. It’s just that fun can turn into insanity on a dime.

Yeah, sure, I just meant that the discussions there cannot be productive effectively by default.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something they did with D&R that I liked was how we saw that motherhood clearly forced Rhaenyra to grow up and start caring about other things beyond herself, whereas Daemon stayed the same. That was at its most evident during their fight after Viserys died. 

It wouldn’t surprise me if they try to do a redemption arc for Daemon through his relationship with Nettles, who does not fit his Valyrian supremacist’s idea of what a dragon rider should be. The downside is, him being “redeemed” means abandoning his wife and children.

Twitter is like Pandora’s box. You know you shouldn’t look inside, but if you lift the lid just a smidge. . . Alternatively, sometimes the chaos can be fun. It’s just that fun can turn into insanity on a dime.

I don't see how Daemon would be 'redeemed' through his relationship with Nettles, whatever it is. Especially if she's his lover- that would just make him an even bigger creep. A 49 year old man cheating on his much younger wife (his niece, whom he groomed) with a 16 year old (and he was described acting like a father to her and teaching her hor to behave) is definitely not something I can imagine people calling redemption. A less creepy version would be if she's his daughter or he thinks she is/might be, but that also doesn't equal redemption. Many (most?) people care about their children, so what? (Also more importantly, Nettles' origins should remain a mystery.) The version that makes Daemon look best is if it is platonic and maybe Daemon thinks she's his daughter or wants to think, but then realizes she can't be and still cares about her and helps her. But even in that version, caring about/saving one person isn't redemption. Almost every character in the story has at least one person they really love/care about. That doesn't redeem them for the awful things they do  it just shows they have layers 

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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't see how Daemon would be 'redeemed' through his relationship with Nettles, whatever it is. Especially if she's his lover- that would just make him an even bigger creep. A 49 year old man cheating on his much younger wife (his niece, whom he groomed) with a 16 year old (and he was described acting like a father to her and teaching her hor to behave) is definitely not something I can imagine people calling redemption. A less creepy version would be if she's his daughter or he thinks she is/might be, but that also doesn't equal redemption. Many (most?) people care about their children, so what? (Also more importantly, Nettles' origins should remain a mystery.) The version that makes Daemon look best is if it is platonic and maybe Daemon thinks she's his daughter or wants to think, but then realizes she can't be and still cares about her and helps her. But even in that version, caring about/saving one person isn't redemption. Almost every character in the story has at least one person they really love/care about. That doesn't redeem them for the awful things they do  it just shows they have layers 

I think the point was supposed to be that he protected Nettles from the aristocrats who wanted to kill her and sacrificed himself to kill Aemond. Daemon is also a Valyrian supremacist whose incestuous practices were intertwined with his elitism, so falling for someone who is so far removed from that shows some character development. I agree that Daemon’s a POS, but I can see how GRRM may have been thinking differently when he wrote it. It’s kind of like how he wrote Rhaegar and Lyanna as a love story when Rhaegar was really an adulterous idiot.

I don’t know how this fan theory that Nettles is Daemon’s daughter became so popular. It’s not even hinted at in the books. As for the show, they’ve made it pretty clear that Daemon doesn’t care about his daughters. I see no reason why he would suddenly start caring about one now.

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7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the point was supposed to be that he protected Nettles from the aristocrats who wanted to kill her and sacrificed himself to kill Aemond.

It is just a ridiculous story. The fucking prince consort doesn't have to kill his irrelevant failure of a nephew to save Nettles. He can just leave with her. He can bend Rhaenyra to his will. He can take Nettles and their dragons and turn Green. He can go into exile with her like he did with Laena. He could have done a lot of things. The thing he does makes just no sense at all.

And in the book the woman who wounds him there is not so much Rhaenyra but actually Mysaria. She is the whore in his statement there. He knows that Mysaria is the one who effectively wrote Rhaenyra's letter. Which actually makes sense since, in the book, the last woman he fucked prior to, perhaps, Nettles was, allegedly, Mysaria. Rhaenyra he may not have touched for months or years (could easily be the last time they had sex was when they conceived Visenya).

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Daemon is also a Valyrian supremacist whose incestuous practices were intertwined with his elitism, so falling for someone who is so far removed from that shows some character development.

That is not the case in the book. Yes, he married both Laena and Rhaenyra, but he fucked lots and lots of other women, especially maidens, but he is not impotent in the book. We don't know why he and Rhea don't work out, and we also don't know if Daemon ever loved or even desired Laena. What we are told is that this was a calculated match to check his own descent. The man had neither friends nor allies at that time, so sealing an alliance with Corlys by way of marrying his daughter was a political sound choice.

And Rhaenyra later is even more complicated, clearly in part motivated by Rhaenyra's desire for him ... at a time when book Rhaenyra may have already lost many of the qualities that made her the Realm's Delight in her youth. To Daemon, sex with Rhaenyra could very well have been more akin to Littlefinger's sex with Lysa than some expression of some fetish.

Yes, in the book Mysaria also has Valyrian looks ... but we don't know if that or her character/other qualities drew Daemon to her.

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t know how this fan theory that Nettles is Daemon’s daughter became so popular. It’s not even hinted at in the books. As for the show, they’ve made it pretty clear that Daemon doesn’t care about his daughters. I see no reason why he would suddenly start caring about one now.

It is pretty much hinted at in the book since the actual detailed description of their relationship as given by the maester of Maidenpool doesn't actually list any romantic or erotic scenes. If they had been lovers he could have stated it outright, could have talked about how the prince's hands were all over the girl's body whenever nobody seemed to look at them, could have told us how people at Maidenpool and he himself saw them exchange passionate kisses, could have told us how the servants and he himself heard screams of pleasure from both Nettles' and Daemon's chambers in the night, etc.

But we get none of that. Instead we get a man who seems to be genuinely interested in playing the father to frightened and shy girl from a humble background. He gives her gifts like one would a daughter, he teaches her manners like one would somebody one would want to make part of the family.

If we view this as a romance then Daemon is still just Humbert Humbert to Nettles' Lolita. He would be a creepy old dude worming his way into the mind and heart of a young woman.

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Also more importantly, Nettles' origins should remain a mystery.

There is no reason why Nettles' origins should remain a mystery. The character would lose a lot of depth we didn't know who she was. In fact, we need to know as much about all the dragonseeds as we can. We need to know who Addam and Alyn's father is, and we need to know the background and the possible or confirmed ancestry of Ulf and Hugh. These characters will be interesting because they will have the Targaryen talent without having an official Targaryen background. This has to be elaborated on. We have to see how they want to be part of the larger family and how they are rejected, ridiculed, humiliated ... which then leads to the plot of the Two Betrayers. And we certainly also need to understand how Addam and Alyn and Nettles are treated better (to a point) than Ulf and Hugh. It would be far to simple to portray the latter two just as one-dimensional assholes whose betrayal is written on their foreheads from scene one.

Thinking about the latter - if the reports about more Jaehaerys (and perhaps Alysanne, too) in season 2 are true, then the origins of Hugh and Ulf and Nettles could very much figure into that, since Vermithor and Silverwing happen to be royal dragons, so it stands to reason that Ulf and Hugh could be actually direct descendants of Jaehaerys (and Alysanne) - perhaps through Aemon or Baelon, perhaps through some actual bastard of Jaehaerys I.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is just a ridiculous story. The fucking prince consort doesn't have to kill his irrelevant failure of a nephew to save Nettles. He can just leave with her. He can bend Rhaenyra to his will. He can take Nettles and their dragons and turn Green. He can go into exile with her like he did with Laena. He could have done a lot of things. The thing he does makes just no sense at all.

And in the book the woman who wounds him there is not so much Rhaenyra but actually Mysaria. She is the whore in his statement there. He knows that Mysaria is the one who effectively wrote Rhaenyra's letter. Which actually makes sense since, in the book, the last woman he fucked prior to, perhaps, Nettles was, allegedly, Mysaria. Rhaenyra he may not have touched for months or years (could easily be the last time they had sex was when they conceived Visenya).

That is not the case in the book. Yes, he married both Laena and Rhaenyra, but he fucked lots and lots of other women, especially maidens, but he is not impotent in the book. We don't know why he and Rhea don't work out, and we also don't know if Daemon ever loved or even desired Laena. What we are told is that this was a calculated match to check his own descent. The man had neither friends nor allies at that time, so sealing an alliance with Corlys by way of marrying his daughter was a political sound choice.

And Rhaenyra later is even more complicated, clearly in part motivated by Rhaenyra's desire for him ... at a time when book Rhaenyra may have already lost many of the qualities that made her the Realm's Delight in her youth. To Daemon, sex with Rhaenyra could very well have been more akin to Littlefinger's sex with Lysa than some expression of some fetish.

Yes, in the book Mysaria also has Valyrian looks ... but we don't know if that or her character/other qualities drew Daemon to her.

It is pretty much hinted at in the book since the actual detailed description of their relationship as given by the maester of Maidenpool doesn't actually list any romantic or erotic scenes. If they had been lovers he could have stated it outright, could have talked about how the prince's hands were all over the girl's body whenever nobody seemed to look at them, could have told us how people at Maidenpool and he himself saw them exchange passionate kisses, could have told us how the servants and he himself heard screams of pleasure from both Nettles' and Daemon's chambers in the night, etc.

But we get none of that. Instead we get a man who seems to be genuinely interested in playing the father to frightened and shy girl from a humble background. He gives her gifts like one would a daughter, he teaches her manners like one would somebody one would want to make part of the family.

If we view this as a romance then Daemon is still just Humbert Humbert to Nettles' Lolita. He would be a creepy old dude worming his way into the mind and heart of a young woman.

There is no reason why Nettles' origins should remain a mystery. The character would lose a lot of depth we didn't know who she was. In fact, we need to know as much about all the dragonseeds as we can. We need to know who Addam and Alyn's father is, and we need to know the background and the possible or confirmed ancestry of Ulf and Hugh. These characters will be interesting because they will have the Targaryen talent without having an official Targaryen background. This has to be elaborated on. We have to see how they want to be part of the larger family and how they are rejected, ridiculed, humiliated ... which then leads to the plot of the Two Betrayers. And we certainly also need to understand how Addam and Alyn and Nettles are treated better (to a point) than Ulf and Hugh. It would be far to simple to portray the latter two just as one-dimensional assholes whose betrayal is written on their foreheads from scene one.

Thinking about the latter - if the reports about more Jaehaerys (and perhaps Alysanne, too) in season 2 are true, then the origins of Hugh and Ulf and Nettles could very much figure into that, since Vermithor and Silverwing happen to be royal dragons, so it stands to reason that Ulf and Hugh could be actually direct descendants of Jaehaerys (and Alysanne) - perhaps through Aemon or Baelon, perhaps through some actual bastard of Jaehaerys I.

Daemon had sex with lots of women, but the only ones he considered partners were Valyrian women—Laena, Rhaenyra, and Mysaria.

He and Nettles had adjoining bedrooms and took baths together. I consider that pretty solid sexual subtext.

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