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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Olivia has dyed her hair auburn, not bright redy again because they're about the start filmingy so she needs to have Alicent's auburn hair as she did in season 1. I'm not sure what's notable about that.

It’s much more vibrant this time. It looked more brown in season one.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s much more vibrant this time. It looked more brown in season one.

I don't see a big difference?

April 2021:

https://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/4548086/olivia-cooke-oscars-2021-02/

Last week:

https://footwearnews.com/gallery/house-of-the-dragon-fyc-event-photos/

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6 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

It seemed like the show writers really wanted to show that Daemon was trying to be a good husband to Laena, so maybe they'll transfer whatever positives they see in that relationship to his relationship with Nettles. Or they'll play up the "what the fuck" of it all. I would honestly prefer that they don't make it sexual as I don't wanna see what lengths people will go to justify some of Daemon's behavior. 

Nope, they didn't write him that way at all. They included a scene (which was then cut) of Daemon making out with some male servant at Pentos, and they establish it in dialogue that Daemon was not really in happy in his marriage. And he ignores one of his daughters. He is both a shitty husband and father. Laena is portrayed pretty well, as a woman whose ambition equals that of Daemon - or even surpasses it. That is the one good thing about their relationship in the show.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

On a less light topic, this discussion again proves that many people don't know what grooming means.

So a reminder: grooming, in a child abuse scenario, neans an adult befriending / trying to win the trust of a minor with the intention of eventual sexual abuse. It may involve things like  gifts, attention, trying to portray themselves as the minors friend who undersrands them and values them etc. and it can last a long time, even years, before anything sexual takes place, but it was the end goal.

That's exactly what Littlefinger is trying to do with Sansa, and what Daemon did with his niece. The show scenario is less creepy and messed up than Mushroom's version, but the show also made sure to have Daemon flirting with Rhaenyra and giving her a gift in episode 1 when she was 14 (when she,incidentally, wasn't heir yet. Even after being named heir, she was shown to be very insecure throughout episode 2 and 3 and feeling like she would be replaced). Of course Daemon has known Rhaenyra since she was a baby and been her uncle she looked up to. I don't know if any of the lones from the leaked Alys Rivers audition will be in the show, but I really hope the "a child you used to bounce on your knee" makes it.

I know what it is - what I'd doubt is that (for the show, as portrayed, definitely, and for the book perhaps, too, although the sources are so limited and contradictory that we don't understand anything) Daemon actually befriended Rhaenyra with the intention to abuse her.

If we take this setting serious then marriage within the family is normal for those people, so an attraction between Rhaenyra and Daemon that goes beyond that of a normal uncle-niece relationship is to be expected. Just as there is between siblings - which is why I said above that I actually like them having Aemond express his desire or willingness to marry Helaena. It shows both that he cares for her as his sister (and a person) and that he understands the dynastic meaning of that match - something Aegon doesn't grasp.

The narrative of Daemon-Rhaenyra both in book and show doesn't indicate that he cared much for her ... back at the beginning of Viserys' reign he may have been the one to search her out, to spend time with her, but that was when he is still the heir in both book and show. He would have been just a nice uncle. When he returns from the Stepstones in 111 AC Rhaenyra is - by the standards of her society - almost a woman and the Heir Apparent. She would decide who she spends time with, who she allows in her inner circle, and she hadn't seen her uncle for six years, crucial and formative years. And he left on bad terms with both her father and her because she was named heir.

So whatever happened in 111 AC in the book and what led to the Rhaenyra-Daemon match in 120 AC has nothing to do with Daemon manipulating or exploiting his niece but with his niece actively deciding that she wants this man. Like she earlier decided she wanted Criston Cole and Harwin Strong. In that sense, I think, a more accurate take on Rhaenyra is to see her more like Saera in her desires and goals ... not so much a girl who is led onto a certain path by a manipulative elder.

(Of course, the monstrous Mushroom scenario of 111 AC paints things in a ridiculous light - but that's not something a serious person believes actually happened.)

The show tread very carefully around the Daemon-Rhaenyra thing, I think. You see there is a closeness there, but in the first couple of episodes it is clearly something based care - Daemon sort of cares for Rhaenyra as his niece, lends his support in the wake of her mother's death, and later he shows his grudging respect for her when she confronts him on Dragonstone. But at that point there is no desire there, and no indication that Daemon only has those ties with Rhaenyra because he wants to seduce or marry her one day. They deal with that later, and after his return their encounter has fucked up aspects, especially how Daemon handles the aftermath, but the entire thing is more about Daemon trying to open Rhaenyra to the fact that marriage doesn't have to mean you can't have a proper sex life.

And if you look at things then we likely should take the brothel episode as Rhaenyra finally coming to terms with her role as a woman and future mother. Daemon does help her understand that she can be more than just a brood mare - and that, in turn, explains why she later has no trouble giving birth to six children.

Thematically, Alicent's problem is that nobody actually cares enough for her to teach her the same lesson.

I'd also like to hear the Alys remark you talked about above in the show - although the gist of that dialogue was more Alys mocking Daemon for being the trophy consort of a wife and niece nearly half his age when he himself once dreamed of sitting the throne. What complicates their relationship in the season finale is Daemon not being happy with the way Rhaenyra rules as queen.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I'm glad some people acknowledge that Aenond was a victim of sexual abuse when Aegon took him to a brothel on his 13th birthday. Finally something @Lord Varyssays that I agree with.

However, that didn't involve any grooming.

I'm pretty sure that encounter traumatized and scarred little Aemond, and Alys Rivers is later going to exploit this. If they have the grace to go with Alys as (much) older woman we can very much expect Aemond having mommy issues with her, in part thanks to his encounter with brothel lady.

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I wasn't discussing Aemond's qualities or the lack of them as a leader or strategist. I was just baffled by you now claiming he didn't pose any serious danger to the Blacks.

We don't have to discuss this. Aemond was objectively no real danger to the Blacks. Rhaenyra still sent out dragonriders to hunt him down because people asked her to, but this doesn't mean she had to do this to secure her throne. She didn't, because Aemond was no danger to her, merely to some peasants and minor lords.

We also don't know the exact details of how this decision was made. Could very well have gone something along the lines of there being reports about Aemond, Daemon declaring he would take the bastard girl and deal with him, and then everybody agreed and they discussed something else. If Daemon wanted to do this, say, because he wanted to be alone with Nettles, then he would have just done it.

Also, of course, when that decision was made the Two Betrayers were still on Rhaenyra's side. She had dragons to spare. She could have even sent Addam or Joffrey to Tumbleton or with Daemon/Nettles. Two dragonriders should have been enough to defend KL against dragonless armies or even against a resurfacing Aegon II on crippled Sunfyre.

(How much of a joke Aemond is you can conclude from the simple fact that the effectively rogue dragonrider Addam Velaryon can raise an army of Black Riverlanders in record time but the rider of the largest dragon in the world cannot get so much as a single Riverlord (or other Westerosi lord) on his side. The man is an utter failure.)

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Re: Nettles- there is zero indication that she had any Valyrian blood. Rhaenyra even wrote that "one look at her" made it obvious she had no Valyrian blood. Therefore she sure as hell won't have silver hair in the show. And if the HotD casting director has any sense, she will cast a dark skinned black actress.

There is also no indication she doesn't have dragonlord blood. And since the showrunners went out of their way to give both Rhaenys and Aemma Valyrian hair (when the former had black hair) the chances are not that bad that both Hugh and Nettles will get themselves some Valyrian hair in the show, too. And why not?

I'm pretty sure the show is not going to include Rhaenyra's silly rant in the show.

I also see no reason why they should cast specifically a 'dark skinned black actress'. There are black Valyrians in the show, so if she is black - light skinned or dark skinned - nothing will separate her from Addam and Alyn (who should be black, too, especially if their mother Marilda were to turn out to be black, too) in the eyes of the audience. They won't view Nettles as different from the Velaryon dragonriders.

This entire notion that Nettles is somehow different from the other dragonseeds rests in no small part on her looks - but that difference is now meaningless in the show. And wasn't really meaningful or relevant in the book since there are dark-skinned and mixed Targaryen descendants in the books with both Brown Ben Plumm (who might even become a dragonrider) as well as the Black Pearls of Braavos. The blood of the dragon can come in all colors and forms, it is not limited to weirdo albinos.

There is obviously also a rather crucial plot element there if the show focuses on the actual Targaryen or Velaryon ancestry of the various dragonseeds - because it will depict how unjust and fundamentally flawed the focus on bastardy and legitimate birth is. If dragons are power - and they are power - then it doesn't matter on which side of the blanket you are born. It would be interesting to see how they deal with the Hull boys, Hugh & Ulf, and Nettles in this regard. For instance, if Ulf, say, turned out to be Viserys' and Daemon's bastard half-brother, fathered and discarded by an asshole Baelon in the later 90s or so then this would add a rather interesting dynamic to a lot of things. Just as Hugh's ambition to kingship could get a boost if it turned out he was not, in fact, some blacksmith's bastard as he believed, but rather the bastard of Prince Aemon Targaryen.

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So let me get this straight: Alys  is going to "exploit" Aemond's "mommy issues" and past trauma, because how else would a young man be attracted to a much older woman? And she. a bastard servant, is going to have power over the Prince Regent with a huge dragon who just took her castle and can basically decide to kill her or anyone else there if he feels like it...?

But, on the other hand -

Daemon (and Viserys, and Corlys in the book) being attracted to much younger women and girls, including those who are definitely underage. doesn't mean they have... daughter issues?
Rhaenyra falling for a much older man who is also her UNCLE isn't a result of 'daddy issues' and past trauma... and also grooming by said uncle. a Prince, who has known her since she was a baby. No, that was not grooming or exploitative, because Rhaenyra being named heir over Daemon all at once made Rhaenyra so powerful in her relationship with Daemon!

...Interesting.

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13 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

So let me get this straight: Alys  is going to "exploit" Aemond's "mommy issues" and past trauma, because how else would a young man be attracted to a much older woman? And she. a bastard servant, is going to have power over the Prince Regent with a huge dragon who just took her castle and can basically decide to kill her or anyone else there if he feels like it...?

Sorry, Aemond has just entered into a marriage contract. He is not free to make out or even marry another woman, much less a bastard woman of ill repute. Aemond's obsession with Alys Rivers completely ruins the man. It leads to his fallout with Criston Cole and causes him to waste his life in the wilderness and then his woman might lead him quite deliberately him to his slaughter, so she can set her own plans in motion.

It would make a lot of sense if Alys felt Aemond's vulnerability there and exploited it to turn him into her pet. Which is clearly what he becomes.

13 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

But, on the other hand -

Daemon (and Viserys, and Corlys in the book) being attracted to much younger women and girls, including those who are definitely underage. doesn't mean they have... daughter issues?

As you usually, you are projecting things there. Rhaenys was a great match, and we have no clue if Corlys was even the driving force behind it. And if Viserys loved Alicent all that much we don't know, either. We just know he wanted to marry her. But she was a grown woman in the book at the time.

13 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Rhaenyra falling for a much older man who is also her UNCLE isn't a result of 'daddy issues' and past trauma... and also grooming by said uncle. a Prince, who has known her since she was a baby. No, that was not grooming or exploitative, because Rhaenyra being named heir over Daemon all at once made Rhaenyra so powerful in her relationship with Daemon!

...Interesting.

LOL, if an older man groomed Rhaenyra it would have been Criston Cole and perhaps even Harwin Strong. They were at court with her for years and years whilst Daemon married Rhea Royce in the year of Rhaenyra's birth, lived at Runestone until he was called to court in 103 AC, left court permanently less than two years later, returned for a half a year in 111 AC and then settled on Driftmark in the late 110s where he and Rhaenyra reconnected only after the death of Daemon's wife Laena (who may have been Rhaenyra's lover prior to her death).

His effect on Rhaenyra's life and upbringing would have been minimal. He wasn't even the odd uncle who showed up for her birthday, he was the distant uncle who she saw about once a decade. At the same time Rhaenyra was constantly surrounded by men seeking her favor - not just Criston Cole and Harwin Strong but also all the lords and knights and squires who wanted to marry her. She was a rich kid at the center of attention of a never-ending party. And the one constant about her uncle was that he was away.

You make a fool of yourself if you imagine that the fourteen-year-old Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne would have to spend time with her creepy uncle who just returned from his travesty of a kingdom if she was not inclined to see him. You do know how a royal court works, right? You ask for an audience and then you get one or it is denied. And when you want to spend time with a princess who also happened to be the heir you have to gain her favor and retain it. You cannot just stalk her. Hell, Rhaenyra herself would have to send away Criston Cole and other companions and protectors she may have had to be alone with Daemon. And what the sources tell us is that Rhaenyra was about as interested to spend time with Daemon as he was to spend time with her. And it makes literally no sense that this was because of some gifts he gave her back in 103-105 AC.

Rhaenyra was as much Daemon's victim as Arianne's infatuation with her uncle was Oberyn's fault. Daemon is just the kind of man Rhaenyra would fall for. She wants her man dangerous, powerfully built, and strong.

But he was clearly only on Rhaenyra's mind when he was there - which was rarely the case, and the only time she actually explored this avenue was in 111 AC. Which, for her family, was not exactly uncommon. Daemon's marriage was a failure so why not dissolve it and allow Rhaenyra to marry him?

I'm not saying Daemon didn't deliberately work to seduce Rhaenyra in 111 AC. Of course he did. But he had been away for years before that and there is no indication that he was attentive to the little girl Rhaenyra in 103-105 AC because he intended to seduce her later. That is projection on your part.

Daemon wanted the throne, and from 103-105 AC he was the presumptive heir, so there was no need for him to marry Rhaenyra, a woman much younger than him who could give him sons only years later.

The show depicts the Rhaenyra-Daemon thing pretty well in the sense that they make it clear that Rhaenyra noticed his absence and didn't exactly consider that as a sign of affection on his part. And while there is passion there in the end ... their marriage is as much a marriage of convenience than one of passion. And for the book I daresay it would have been mostly a marriage of convenience since Gyldayn gives us no clue that Daemon actually ever loved Rhaenyra or was attracted to fatty Rhaenyra who would have already been a thing in 120 AC.

The show does have the grace to portray Daemon-Rhaenyra as sharing a strong bond. They do care for each other deeply.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, they didn't write him that way at all. They included a scene (which was then cut) of Daemon making out with some male servant at Pentos, and they establish it in dialogue that Daemon was not really in happy in his marriage. And he ignores one of his daughters. He is both a shitty husband and father. Laena is portrayed pretty well, as a woman whose ambition equals that of Daemon - or even surpasses it. That is the one good thing about their relationship in the show.

I think part of it was that their marriage at present was in decline, from the imagined peaks where they were actually doing well. I might be misreading, but my interpretation was that Laena was a stabilizing and healthy force in Daemon's life (much the same way Nettles' seems to be), whereas Rhae and Mysaria are kind of a chaotic shitstorm for Daemon's already shitstorm personality. Now, was Daemon bored and unhappy, probably, but at least he was being kind of a normal person for a little bit.

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5 minutes ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I think part of it was that their marriage at present was in decline, from the imagined peaks where they were actually doing well. I might be misreading, but my interpretation was that Laena was a stabilizing and healthy force in Daemon's life (much the same way Nettles' seems to be), whereas Rhae and Mysaria are kind of a chaotic shitstorm for Daemon's already shitstorm personality. Now, was Daemon bored and unhappy, probably, but at least he was being kind of a normal person for a little bit.

We have no idea how about their relationship, so really no idea if it was ever better. Laena is not stabilizing, though. She feds him the idea - or first feeds it to him - that they are destined for more than the quiet country lord life they are living right now. Which certainly ends up ruining his life.

Daemon seems to have been the happiest with Rhaenyra and the boys and Rhaena on Dragonstone, prior to the Dance. There he seemed to be content and settled.

What has him somewhat spiral out of control is the death of his brother, the usurpation, the stillbirth, and then, presumably, the death of Luke.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, Aemond has just entered into a marriage contract. He is not free to make out or even marry another woman, much less a bastard woman of ill repute. Aemond's obsession with Alys Rivers completely ruins the man. It leads to his fallout with Criston Cole and causes him to waste his life in the wilderness and then his woman might lead him quite deliberately him to his slaughter, so she can set her own plans in motion.

It would make a lot of sense if Alys felt Aemond's vulnerability there and exploited it to turn him into her pet. Which is clearly what he becomes.

As you usually, you are projecting things there. Rhaenys was a great match, and we have no clue if Corlys was even the driving force behind it. And if Viserys loved Alicent all that much we don't know, either. We just know he wanted to marry her. But she was a grown woman in the book at the time.

LOL, if an older man groomed Rhaenyra it would have been Criston Cole and perhaps even Harwin Strong. They were at court with her for years and years whilst Daemon married Rhea Royce in the year of Rhaenyra's birth, lived at Runestone until he was called to court in 103 AC, left court permanently less than two years later, returned for a half a year in 111 AC and then settled on Driftmark in the late 110s where he and Rhaenyra reconnected only after the death of Daemon's wife Laena (who may have been Rhaenyra's lover prior to her death).

His effect on Rhaenyra's life and upbringing would have been minimal. He wasn't even the odd uncle who showed up for her birthday, he was the distant uncle who she saw about once a decade. At the same time Rhaenyra was constantly surrounded by men seeking her favor - not just Criston Cole and Harwin Strong but also all the lords and knights and squires who wanted to marry her. She was a rich kid at the center of attention of a never-ending party. And the one constant about her uncle was that he was away.

You make a fool of yourself if you imagine that the fourteen-year-old Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne would have to spend time with her creepy uncle who just returned from his travesty of a kingdom if she was not inclined to see him. You do know how a royal court works, right? You ask for an audience and then you get one or it is denied. And when you want to spend time with a princess who also happened to be the heir you have to gain her favor and retain it. You cannot just stalk her. Hell, Rhaenyra herself would have to send away Criston Cole and other companions and protectors she may have had to be alone with Daemon. And what the sources tell us is that Rhaenyra was about as interested to spend time with Daemon as he was to spend time with her. And it makes literally no sense that this was because of some gifts he gave her back in 103-105 AC.

Rhaenyra was as much Daemon's victim as Arianne's infatuation with her uncle was Oberyn's fault. Daemon is just the kind of man Rhaenyra would fall for. She wants her man dangerous, powerfully built, and strong.

But he was clearly only on Rhaenyra's mind when he was there - which was rarely the case, and the only time she actually explored this avenue was in 111 AC. Which, for her family, was not exactly uncommon. Daemon's marriage was a failure so why not dissolve it and allow Rhaenyra to marry him?

I'm not saying Daemon didn't deliberately work to seduce Rhaenyra in 111 AC. Of course he did. But he had been away for years before that and there is no indication that he was attentive to the little girl Rhaenyra in 103-105 AC because he intended to seduce her later. That is projection on your part.

Daemon wanted the throne, and from 103-105 AC he was the presumptive heir, so there was no need for him to marry Rhaenyra, a woman much younger than him who could give him sons only years later.

The show depicts the Rhaenyra-Daemon thing pretty well in the sense that they make it clear that Rhaenyra noticed his absence and didn't exactly consider that as a sign of affection on his part. And while there is passion there in the end ... their marriage is as much a marriage of convenience than one of passion. And for the book I daresay it would have been mostly a marriage of convenience since Gyldayn gives us no clue that Daemon actually ever loved Rhaenyra or was attracted to fatty Rhaenyra who would have already been a thing in 120 AC.

The show does have the grace to portray Daemon-Rhaenyra as sharing a strong bond. They do care for each other deeply.

LOL I'm not even going to read all of this, I stopped at how Daemon totally didn't groom Rhaenyra but Criston and Harwin did, and I'm not taking any of this seriously.

Basically you just think Targaryens are gods, except for the Greens, and love Targaryen incest marrages.

And, surprise, surprise, you hate women of the lower class that Targaryen princes genuinely fall in love for and marry instead of doing more arranged marriages and Targaryen incest.

Every word you wrote about Alys is complete nonsense. We know what Aemond and Criston argued about - completely different tactics - and here's zero reason to think Alys had anything to do with that, unless you believe Mushroom's ridiculous srory that it was a lurve rivalry because she was using love potions to make both Aemomd and Criston be into her (for reasons, I guess? For s***s and giggles? Who needs logic or motivations...) 

It's hilarious that GRRM wrote the rumors and comments about Alys by the maeste  and court jester to  be blatantly misogynistic, classist nonsense (also obviously furled by the fact these accounts were written when she was holding Harrenhal in open rebellion against Aegon III and his regents), with parallels to real life rumors and slanders against women like Elizabeth Woodville and Anke Boleyn and also to other women in the ASOIAF world who had the exac same runors said against them (Donelle Lothston, Shiera Seastar, Rohanne Webber, Dany), but a bunch of readers eat it up and have the most surface level reading possible.

Fandom's attempts to somehow find a way to blame Aemond's actions on Alys will never not be hilarious, since the only known instance of her influencinh Aemond tp change his mind thwt F&B actually gives us is when she convinced him not to strangle a messenger in a fit of rage over the news he brought. (How evil of her!) You couldn't come up with anything except "she led Aempnd to his death" because she told him where  Daemon was. As if it was somehow her war or that she had a reason to make Aemomd fight Daemon, when in fact Aemond was fighting his family's war and was the one who had reasons to want Daemon dead and had wanted to fight and kill Daemon before he even met Alys - that's why he went to the Riverlands in the first place.

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16 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

LOL I'm not even going to read all of this, I stopped at how Daemon totally didn't groom Rhaenyra but Criston and Harwin did, and I'm not taking any of this seriously.

LOL, you cannot be taken seriously for claiming that a guy who barely saw his niece for a period of two decades turned her into his little love slave pet ... while completely ignoring the actualy adult men buzzing around her who tried to get into her pants, too. Men who would have shaped her sexual development much more than the absent uncle. It is rather common fact of attraction that you get the hots for people you actually see a lot.

16 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

And, surprise, surprise, you hate women of the lower class that Targaryen princes genuinely fall in love for and marry instead of doing more arranged marriages and Targaryen incest.

LOL, you actually think this is a story of lower class romance shit? Aemond Targaryen is one of the worst individuals in George's entire oevre - because of his actual character, his cruel actions, and his blatant stupidity. He is the Victarion Greyjoy of House Targaryen. And yes, making out with a woman like Alys is a huge part of that because apparently his obsession with this silly woman caused him to abandon his duty to his king, his mother, his dynasty, and the Realm. Aemond presumed to rule as Prince Regent, wore the crown of his royal brother, ran his government ... and then he abandoned all that for some nobody??? A prince doing that is an utter failure and a disgrace.

And that, you think, is a good thing, somebody we should applaud this shithead for? Please.

Ditto with Daemon making out with Nettles if that's what happened. These people don't live for their silly personal pleasure or fun - they live for their family, their house, the Realm. And they should fucking act like that.

(In fact, if you look at both Daemon and Aemond during the Dance they both kind of follow a well-known trope in medieval literature where the heroic knight loses all sense of duty in the sight of his wife's/lover's cunny. That's also something George indicates in the Rhaegar-Lyanna story where Rhaegar stayed away from the outside world for too long. Men doing that fail as heroic knights because there is more to life than love and sex.)

16 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Every word you wrote about Alys is complete nonsense. We know what Aemond and Criston argued about - completely different tactics - and here's zero reason to think Alys had anything to do with that, unless you believe Mushroom's ridiculous srory that it was a lurve rivalry because she was using love potions to make both Aemomd and Criston be into her (for reasons, I guess? For s***s and giggles? Who needs logic or motivations...) 

LOL, you actually think 'different tactics' make sense as an explanation there? Aemond had no tactics to offer but Alys' cunt. He and Criston were pretty close during the war and then the man actually abandons Criston and the army they both led? That makes no sense. Not only does it lead to the destruction of Cole and his army, but it also means that Aemond and Vhagar cannot help Daeron and Aegon II and Alicent against Rhaenyra. Aemond acts like Rhaenys or Visenya

And if you were actually reading things and thinking about them then I said the show would portray Alys-Aemond the way I said - because it clearly established a vulnerability there with Aemond and because Alys Rivers as a character is likely going to get a lot of agency in the show. Their take on things is to increase the roles/presence of the women while downplaying the roles of the men. So, of course, Alys Rivers is likely going to wield a lot of influence with Aemond and since she is very much responsible for him failing as a leader and eventually dying a pointless death we can expect this aspect of her story to be played up as well.

One way for Alys to drive a wedge between Aemond and Criston could be to plant the seed in his mind that Criston lusts after his dear mommy Alicent. Just as Aemond, in the show, might butcher all the Strongs because of the way Larys Strong treated his mother (which he could eventually learn somehow).

But that doesn't mean the book Alys would have done all that or that Mushroom's takes on her are correct. However, assuming the woman was just the poor victim of Aemond Targaryen's mad (and inappropriate) affections strikes one as very unlikely. Especially in light of her actions after the end of the war.

16 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Fandom's attempts to somehow find a way to blame Aemond's actions on Alys will never not be hilarious, since the only known instance of her influencinh Aemond tp change his mind thwt F&B actually gives us is when she convinced him not to strangle a messenger in a fit of rage over the news he brought. (How evil of her!) You couldn't come up with anything except "she led Aempnd to his death" because she told him where  Daemon was. As if it was somehow her war or that she had a reason to make Aemomd fight Daemon, when in fact Aemond was fighting his family's war and was the one who had reasons to want Daemon dead and had wanted to fight and kill Daemon before he even met Alys - that's why he went to the Riverlands in the first place.

If Alys Rivers can foresee the future then, well, she could have also foreseen that Aemond would die there, clearing the way for herself and her son. And why would she set up Aemond for such a slaughter? One reason could be if Aemond did not, in fact, marry her, so her only chance to put forth her brat as a pretender would be to get rid of Aemond so he could not contradict her narrative.

In general, you should take a step back and remember that those people are fictional people and it makes no sense to be invested in your own personal view of them to the way you seem to be ... even more so with historical people like those from FaB.

(It is actually kind of hilarious how you try to exonerate poor little commoner Alys - which she actually isn't considering her name is RIVERS - while painting Daemon and Rhaenyra in the darkest of colors - not on the basis of their actual shortcomings of failings but by focusing on the worst rumors about them which are, for the most part, worth little or nothing.)

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HOTD managed to win back most of GOT’s audience and a good chunk of reviewers, but it hasn’t really swept the awards circuit. The Emmys aren’t for a while, so it’s possible they could still do really well there, but except for the surprise Golden Globe win, it’s been mostly overlooked. (The most egregious example is probably Paddy Considine, who hasn’t been nominated for anything yet). It makes me wonder if this is a holdover from GOT, and that people in the industry resented GOT’s success even while the quality was noticeably dropping (S8 still won the Best Drama Emmy, for example).

Conversely, if you look at the corners of the internet where people who were fans of S8/D&D congregate (they may be hard to find, but they definitely do exist), a lot of them were unhappy with the press tour for HOTD and felt that HBO was throwing D&D under the bus by all the not-so-subtle insistences that HOTD wouldn’t be making the same mistakes. So a theory I’ve seen in that space is that this is backlash from the industry for that, since fan backlash has become so pervasive and vicious during the past few years and a lot of entertainers are afraid of something similar happening to them. And even if I didn’t like the later seasons of GOT, I do sympathize with D&D for having to face so much vitriol for as long as they have. I don’t think I would have been able to handle that if I was in their shoes.

So TL;DR: Who knows? We need one of those people who just got laid off by Warner to stop by and spill the tea ^_^

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

HOTD managed to win back most of GOT’s audience and a good chunk of reviewers, but it hasn’t really swept the awards circuit. The Emmys aren’t for a while, so it’s possible they could still do really well there, but except for the surprise Golden Globe win, it’s been mostly overlooked. (The most egregious example is probably Paddy Considine, who hasn’t been nominated for anything yet). It makes me wonder if this is a holdover from GOT, and that people in the industry resented GOT’s success even while the quality was noticeably dropping (S8 still won the Best Drama Emmy, for example).

Conversely, if you look at the corners of the internet where people who were fans of S8/D&D congregate (they may be hard to find, but they definitely do exist), a lot of them were unhappy with the press tour for HOTD and felt that HBO was throwing D&D under the bus by all the not-so-subtle insistences that HOTD wouldn’t be making the same mistakes. So a theory I’ve seen in that space is that this is backlash from the industry for that, since fan backlash has become so pervasive and vicious during the past few years and a lot of entertainers are afraid of something similar happening to them. And even if I didn’t like the later seasons of GOT, I do sympathize with D&D for having to face so much vitriol for as long as they have. I don’t think I would have been able to handle that if I was in their shoes.

So TL;DR: Who knows? We need one of those people who just got laid off by Warner to stop by and spill the tea ^_^

I don't have any sympathy for D&D. They were incredibly arrogant, effed up the show and couldn't wait to get to do Star Wars, won a bunch of undeserved Emmys, can't even address any criticism, and are still working on a show for Netflix. What's there for feel sorry for? They got some deserved criticism from people online?

Considering how much critics and award shows fawned over GoT even after season 8, I doubt HotD is in any way suffering from GoT holdover. In fact, many have noticed (even back when the preview reviews came out) that the critics who were harsh on HotD tended to be those who loved the late seasons of GoT. Who can forget such amazing arguments as "all those similar names are too confusing", or "the characters are not purely good or evil" or "there is no funny character like Tyrion or Bronn".

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Anyway, I can't wait to a part of the fandom gets shocked and outraged when HotD doesn't portray Alys Rivers an absurd misogynistic evil witch stereotype they constructed in their heads with shallow surface reading. It will no doubt rival the "why isn't Alicent a power hungry evil stepmother stereotype?" outrage, and will be delicious to witness, alongside the outrage when it turns out the show wasn't really supporting the idea that Targaryen incest marriages are just the best (in spite of the fact that the writers have made it pretty clear how they feel about the main incest ship of the show and how they feel about the portrayal of women in Fire & Blood).  ^_^

But imagine if D&D were the showrunners. I bet Alicent would be showing her breasts every episode and 'seducing' men because she "wants to be THE QUEEN!" and Alys would be some weird 2.0 version of show Melisandre, who was already caricatured compared to book Melisandre.

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38 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Anyway, I can't wait to a part of the fandom gets shocked and outraged when HotD doesn't portray Alys Rivers an absurd misogynistic evil witch stereotype they constructed in their heads with shallow surface reading. It will no doubt rival the "why isn't Alicent a power hungry evil stepmother stereotype?" outrage, and will be delicious to witness, alongside the outrage when it turns out the show wasn't really supporting the idea that Targaryen incest marriages are just the best (in spite of the fact that the writers have made it pretty clear how they feel about the main incest ship of the show and how they feel about the portrayal of women in Fire & Blood).  ^_^

But imagine if D&D were the showrunners. I bet Alicent would be showing her breasts every episode and 'seducing' men because she "wants to be THE QUEEN!" and Alys would be some weird 2.0 version of show Melisandre, who was already caricatured compared to book Melisandre.

Not really sure where you get all that stuff. Alys Rivers seducing and bending Aemond Targaryen to his will is not misogynistic at all - it would give her agency and power. An actual goal in line with the goal she ends up pursuing after Aemond's death. Because, you know, the idea that a much older woman is actually going to fall for stupid prince like Aemond is not exactly a good story. And, of course, it does warrant explanation why Aemond, who happens to be betrothed, is going to fall for a woman of Alys' dubious background especially if she also happens to be much older than he is. Especially if this whole thing is going to culminate in marriage - which is certainly possible.

That warrants explanation both in the book but more so in the show where Aemond is presented (or tries to present himself) as the dutiful and educated son, the better alternative to Aegon as king, the guy who would gladly marry his sister, etc.

If they portray this as a genuine romance they are going to make it as silly as Robb-Talisa in GoT.

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LOL Same energy as Twitte Daemyra Team Black stans who are outraged that Alicent is not a stereotypical evil stepmother trope with no complexity because that would give her power and agency, I love those arguments 

Anyway, we all know that GRRM hates unexpected romances between people from different backgrounds that challenge characters' viewpoints and dedication to duty, Maester Aemon's speech about love and duty was meant to say love sucks, and the best and most unproblematic romances are Targaryen incest marriages for blood purity, especially when it's uncle and niece he used to bounce on his knee as a child. I think this was all made clear in that version of the story where the Blacks were all powerful godlike heroes that totally won the Dance and decisively beat their evil stupid irrelevant enemies and everything was swell. <_<

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4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't have any sympathy for D&D. They were incredibly arrogant, effed up the show and couldn't wait to get to do Star Wars, won a bunch of undeserved Emmys, can't even address any criticism, and are still working on a show for Netflix. What's there for feel sorry for? They got some deserved criticism from people online?

Considering how much critics and award shows fawned over GoT even after season 8, I doubt HotD is in any way suffering from GoT holdover. In fact, many have noticed (even back when the preview reviews came out) that the critics who were harsh on HotD tended to be those who loved the late seasons of GoT. Who can forget such amazing arguments as "all those similar names are too confusing", or "the characters are not purely good or evil" or "there is no funny character like Tyrion or Bronn".

The people who loved S7-8 were the ones who were most excited for HOTD, and were therefore the most disappointed by it. This site is remarkably consistent in how a lot of us had mixed feeling going in and coming out. But my point was that the awards show apparatus is the one area where GOT/HOTD doesn’t seem to have been able to bounce back from the fallout of S8, unlike with viewers, who were won back for the most part.

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Anyway, I can't wait to a part of the fandom gets shocked and outraged when HotD doesn't portray Alys Rivers an absurd misogynistic evil witch stereotype they constructed in their heads with shallow surface reading. It will no doubt rival the "why isn't Alicent a power hungry evil stepmother stereotype?" outrage, and will be delicious to witness, alongside the outrage when it turns out the show wasn't really supporting the idea that Targaryen incest marriages are just the best (in spite of the fact that the writers have made it pretty clear how they feel about the main incest ship of the show and how they feel about the portrayal of women in Fire & Blood).  ^_^

But imagine if D&D were the showrunners. I bet Alicent would be showing her breasts every episode and 'seducing' men because she "wants to be THE QUEEN!" and Alys would be some weird 2.0 version of show Melisandre, who was already caricatured compared to book Melisandre.

While I agree that HOTD is much better with its depiction of sex and nudity than GOT was (particularly concerning assault) I also think fans are full of it at times. If GOT had one of their lead male characters bludgeon his wife to death with a rock, or had a female character commit suicide because death by childbirth wasn’t “badass enough,” or turned one of the two main female leads into a child bride who is subjected to marital rape, book fans would have rioted. (IIRC @Mithras made a pretty good argument about this).

I would have preferred that Alicent was more like her book counterpart, but seeing as this is the version we got, I do find all the hot takes that she is some kind of femme fatale who seduced Viserys by reading him a book to be pretty insufferable. Based on what I’ve seen, it’s mostly younger fans who say shit like this, which is pretty ironic, since this is a demographic that was raised to denounce rape culture. I guess it’s only bad if someone else is doing it. 

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There was another YouTube bro “leak” that is probably fake but it’s nevertheless an interesting concept, which claims that rather than Jace falling in love with Sara Snow, he’ll fall in love with Cregan. I don’t think there’s anything in the text to support this, but it would be an interesting twist on Mushroom’s. It would mean that Jace did fall in love but didn’t break his betrothal, and it would help explain why Cregan was so hellbent on continuing the war to avenge Rhaenyra (but really Jace). Just some food for thought.

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22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

or turned one of the two main female leads into a child bride who is subjected to marital rape

That's what they did with Dany - Drogo. While some critiqued it, certainly, as a change from GRRM's intentions, still, season 1 was pretty well-received.

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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's what they did with Dany - Drogo. While some critiqued it, certainly, as a change from GRRM's intentions, still, season 1 was pretty well-received.

I think the critique for that scene increased over subsequent years. So do you think that the changes to Alicent will become more contentious over time then?

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the critique for that scene increased over subsequent years. So do you think that the changes to Alicent will become more contentious over time then?

Hard to say, really. By the nature of the material, all the characters are thinner than their ASoIaF counter-parts, so there's a lot more scope for the show to do its own thing. It's already an alternate history of the Dance, because of the age changes and relationship changes they've made. And because they had the time jump of a decade, with new actors in the role, I think feelings about young Alicent with Viserys are going to not have much urgency to them. Unless, of course, they decide to have scenes where all that is brought up, which then could re-open fresh arguments.

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Hard to say, really. By the nature of the material, all the characters are thinner than their ASoIaF counter-parts, so there's a lot more scope for the show to do its own thing. It's already an alternate history of the Dance, because of the age changes and relationship changes they've made. And because they had the time jump of a decade, with new actors in the role, I think feelings about young Alicent with Viserys are going to not have much urgency to them. Unless, of course, they decide to have scenes where all that is brought up, which then could re-open fresh arguments.

I think it’ll probably depend on how well-received the rest of the show is. If people like it, they’ll overlook stuff like that, but if not, they’ll look for other flaws to needle at.

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