HOTD Musings

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Aelwen said:

How do you think will be portrayed Daemon and Mysaria relationships? 

They were not as close in the show (or the writers as always, cramp it due time restrictions).

We don't really know how close Mysaria and Daemon were in the book - they had a bad breakup after the dragon egg thing when Daemon shipped Mysaria back to Lys and she lost her child at sea. The next time we see Daemon reaching out to Mysaria is for Blood and Cheese.

The show decided to make Mysaria closer to Otto than Daemon in the second half of season 1 ... but it is clear that Alicent having Larys burn her manse should change that. So we are likely going to see Mysaria join team Black now, but whether that leads to her getting close(r) to Daemon remains to be seen. I have a feeling that the show will have Mysaria get close to Rhaenyra.

5 hours ago, Aelwen said:

Will they portray Rhaenyra as this only cake-eating, fat, dumb figure?

Obviously not. In fact, the whole cake-eating thing from the pilot seems to be a kind of meta joke about book Rhaenyra.

Emma is not fat, but she isn't all that slender, either, but the entire narrative of Rhaenyra being jealous of Alicent because she gained weight while step mommy didn't feels like clichéd standard narrative to explain a quarrel among women. It is the kind of thing spectators come up with when they don't know what's actually going on.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I mean, it's obviously intentional on George's part. His descriptions of the characters from 2006 remain unchanged in the final version of the heating written 12 years later. It was an ugly civil war fought by two factions with figureheads who were both suboptimal rulers, but it didn't make the conflict any less real or consequential.

They weren't really fighting on behalf of themselves, anyways, but rather on behalf of their respective branches of the family, when you consider it in purely dynastic terms. This is underscored by the fact that both claimants died before the war was done.

The character description of Rhaenyra for Amok has her as a completely different character. There she is described as arrogant, vindictive, suffering from nervous tics (indicating that she might be suffering from a mild version of 'Targaryen madness'). It seems clear that part of the reason why there is a Dance is that Rhaenyra, personally, antagonized certain relations and great lords allowing Alicent to build a good case against her. FaB has her a much weaker and milder personality - we never hear anything about her 'never forgetting a real or imagined slight', she doesn't kill the members of her family who fall into her power, and she is more figurehead than active leader of her own cause. And it is quite clear that the Blacks vs. Greens thing is started by Alicent and her people, not Rhaenyra. If her popularity isn't the same in 129 AC as it was in 110 AC then that's because she gained weight (!), not because it was difficult to get along with her. Daemon is the guy who collects as many enemies as he has friends, not Rhaenyra.

Which is, in context, pretty bad as her cause should have hinged very much on her personal charisma. Her passivity throughout the year 129 AC should have very much resulted in the Black cause dying. After all, Daemon also just sits at Harrenhal doing nothing most of the time ... so what the hell does, say, motivate the all those Reach houses to declare for Rhaenyra?

The one thing the two versions have in common is that they were both no warriors - but the Amok Rhaenyra at least modelled herself after Visenya, wearing her hair like Aegon's elder sister. The FaB version only dons armor once in her entire campaign and never flies Syrax into battle nor does she lead or accompany one of her armies. That is just a letdown and makes it actually surprising that anyone was willing to fight for her. The entire point of the dragonrider thing is that women can do it, too. You don't have to be a warrior to ride such a beast - and every dragonrider can burn stuff.

[Aelwen]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The one thing the two versions have in common is that they were both no warriors - but the Amok Rhaenyra at least modelled herself after Visenya, wearing her hair like Aegon's elder sister. The FaB version only dons armor once in her entire campaign and never flies Syrax into battle nor does she lead or accompany one of her armies. That is just a letdown and makes it actually surprising that anyone was willing to fight for her. The entire point of the dragonrider thing is that women can do it, too. You don't have to be a warrior to ride such a beast - and every dragonrider can burn stuff.

Exactly, she is PASSIVE. Absolutely. And stupid. Worst qualities ever combined. 

 

My question is: how the hell she managed to rule Dragonstone, but hopefully she had a good maester and a steward. And how did she manage to raise so decent sons?

Book Rhaenyra is almost as bad as Aegon IV, really. She was charming in her youth, that's it.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Exactly, she is PASSIVE. Absolutely. And stupid. Worst qualities ever combined. 

During the war. Before it she was apparently not that passive. Although, of course, the silliest thing about the 'Black faction' is that Rhaenyra and Daemon clearly never prepared for or even expected there would be a succession war as they completely failed to approach or secure the support of crucial great houses before Viserys' death. Rhaenyra had five sons only two of which were betrothed in 129 AC. Why were Joffrey, Aegon and/or Viserys not betrothed to (some of) the Four Storms?

12 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

My question is: how the hell she managed to rule Dragonstone, but hopefully she had a good maester and a steward. And how did she manage to raise so decent sons?

Book Rhaenyra is almost as bad as Aegon IV, really. She was charming in her youth, that's it.

She isn't that bad ... but passive and depressed. It is actually kind of odd that she wants to be queen but not really fight for it herself.

[Aelwen]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

During the war. Before it she was apparently not that passive. Although, of course, the silliest thing about the 'Black faction' is that Rhaenyra and Daemon clearly never prepared for or even expected there would be a succession war as they completely failed to approach or secure the support of crucial great houses before Viserys' death.

They had ten years of marriage in the books, six in the show. What were they doing? Just raising kids and dragons? 

Quote

Book Rhaenyra is almost as bad as Aegon IV, really. 

Fat, self-indulgent, lazy, not interested in rule, hypocritical. Aegon IV was, by the way, quite talented in his youth, he just threw it all away.

Mathilda was arrogant and haughty but she was competent in politics, at least to some extent. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Lord Varys]

49 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

They had ten years of marriage in the books, six in the show. What were they doing? Just raising kids and dragons?

Definitely not preparing for a large conflict.

49 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Fat, self-indulgent, lazy, not interested in rule, hypocritical. Aegon IV was, by the way, quite talented in his youth, he just threw it all away.

Aegon IV was very smart and seemed to enjoy to play with people. He deliberately misruled, he wasn't stupid or anything. He encouraged corruption, etc. so that he could profit from the system he put in place.

It is not completely bad to have Aegon II and Rhaenyra not as super leaders of the faction. But Aegon did get the chance to fly to battle a couple of times ... while Rhaenyra was effectively too craven and lazy to even do that. And as queen she is constantly pushed around by her advisers, has no plans or designs of her own. Even the decision to arrest/kill Addam and Nettles isn't something she makes - it is effectively the consensus of all her advisers aside from two dissenters.

[Aelwen]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even the decision to arrest/kill Addam and Nettles isn't something she makes - it is effectively the consensus of all her advisers aside from two dissenters.

It’s almost like GRRM has something personal against this character and decided to give her all the bad qualities instead of his favorite, Daemon. I don’t know why he did it, but that’s just how it looks to me.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Aelwen said:

It’s almost like GRRM has something personal against this character and decided to give her all the bad qualities instead of his favorite, Daemon. I don’t know why he did it, but that’s just how it looks to me.

You said something about tribalism earlier, I think?

They are just characters in a story, folks. They are not real people. Their feelings are not hurt, and yours shouldn't be either. If you don't like the story, that's fine, but attempting to impute motives on GRRM outside of, you know, trying to write a story is very strange.

[Aelwen]

Quote

You said something about tribalism earlier, I think?

I don't feel offended for just one of the parties, I try understand how to perceive that story and how to take in his characters. Maybe there are other things hidden between the lines that I missed? I can say he also made Aemond less deep than, for example show version. He is a pure villain in the book. 
(We all know that GRRM liked Daemon and found Aegon IV the worst king, why can't we guess who he disliked?)

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 5/3/2023 at 4:10 PM, Aelwen said:

I don't feel offended for just one of the parties, I try understand how to perceive that story and how to take in his characters. Maybe there are other things hidden between the lines that I missed? I can say he also made Aemond less deep than, for example show version. He is a pure villain in the book. 
(We all know that GRRM liked Daemon and found Aegon IV the worst king, why can't we guess who he disliked?)

 

He’s also talked in interviews about how much he likes houses Dayne and Blackwood, which I think we can also infer from the text. 
 

There’s a rumor floating around that Graham McTavish isn’t returning next season. I guess he wasn’t listed in whatever press release HBO did for S2.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s a rumor floating around that Graham McTavish isn’t returning next season. I guess he wasn’t listed in whatever press release HBO did for S2.

Graham is a busy actor and wasn't given anything particular to do during season 1. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we learn someday he didn't have a great time on set. Obviously it is too early to tell either way but not having him back after making Harrold's fate uncertain on purpose would be a disappointement. I don't see a lot of options for Harrold moving forward apart from going to Dragonstone or commiting suicide by the sword (like Criston Cole almost did at the end of episode 5).

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Graham is a busy actor and wasn't given anything particular to do during season 1. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we learn someday he didn't have a great time on set. Obviously it is too early to tell either way but not having him back after making Harrold's fate uncertain on purpose would be a disappointement. I don't see a lot of options for Harrold moving forward apart from going to Dragonstone or commiting suicide by the sword (like Criston Cole almost did at the end of episode 5).

They could probably just recast him. Like you said, he wasn’t really an iconic character.

[Aelwen]

How much time did pass betwen Rhaenyra and Laenor berthrothal and their marriage? 

I think at least, Viserys had to invite all major lords. Ravens take 3-8 days to fly, depending on distance. The, the lords had to prepare and move. 

White Harbor- KL took Catelyn 16 days, add 2 weeks for travel between WH and KL - a month at least. 

From Lannisport it would take around 50 days to travel by roads (I mean an average speed 20 miles per day). 

[Ran]

Remember that the Westeros of the TV show is smaller than that of the books.

[Aelwen]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Remember that the Westeros of the TV show is smaller than that of the books.

Really? Never knew, where can I read something about it? Did the showrunner say it or?

How much smaller? 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Aelwen

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Aelwen said:

Really? Never knew, where can I read something about it? Did the showrunner say it or?

How much smaller? 

@Werthead collected some stuff suggesting that GoT made Westeros about half as large.

[Aelwen]

Well, them Lannisters will have to travel around 25 days or 15-20 by sea.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think there is any consistency to the geography of GoT's Westeros.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there is any consistency to the geography of GoT's Westeros.

There is, in that it's consistently nonsensical.

In Season 7 the Inn at the Crossroads is said to be 200 miles from King's Landing (half the distance in the books). In Season 8, it's said to be two days from King's Landing (60-70 miles if you're being generous).

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There is, in that it's consistently nonsensical.

In Season 7 the Inn at the Crossroads is said to be 200 miles from King's Landing (half the distance in the books). In Season 8, it's said to be two days from King's Landing (60-70 miles if you're being generous).

Which is why I honestly hope you actually never wasted time trying to make sense of it.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there is any consistency to the geography of GoT's Westeros.

Weren't the Lannister armies able to march from King's Landing to Highgarden, beat the Golden Company and sack Highgarden, march to Lannisport and then back to King's Landing to pay off the Iron Bank in ~2 weeks?