HOTD Musings

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

That's a fair assessment, but I wonder if those traits are still as prevalent at Daemon in his forties as they were in his twenties. An older parent of four who has already become king may act a little bit more responsibly, I'd guess.

The way the show portrays it, Daemon's incompetence at his jobs is, in part, an exaggeration by Otto. He even admits that he wants Daemon gone from court entirely, so there is a chance that even a younger Daemon wouldn't have sucked completely as king. We can also imagine that he wouldn't abandon the Iron Throne as easily as his 'Narrow Sea kingdom'.

The older Daemon seems to be a guy who could have been a decent, if largely absent, ruler. His rule would have been harsher than that of Viserys and Jaehaerys, but there is no indication he would have wanted to be a Maegor.

[Aelwen]

Would you agree that show Rhaenyra has or had a different overall goal as a character from her book version?

Book Rhaenyra did want to become a Queen. She was raised with that thought and never wavered. 

Show Rhaenyra accepted it as her duty so I would define her goal as Carry on her legacy, not Becoming a ruler.

Moreover they had different inner motivations. Book Rhaenyra most likely acted out of desire for prestige. 

Show Rhaenyra wanted her father's approval and attention, I think her inner motivation is low self-esteem. She is similar with Daemon in that desire. He didn't want the throne, he suffered from a "second son" syndrome. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Aelwen

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Aelwen said:

Would you agree that show Rhaenyra has or had a different overall goal as a character from her book version?

Book Rhaenyra did want to become a Queen. She was raised with that thought and never wavered. 

Show Rhaenyra accepted it as her duty so I would define her goal as Carry on her legacy, not Becoming a ruler.

Moreover they had different inner motivations. Book Rhaenyra most likely acted out of desire for prestige. 

Show Rhaenyra wanted her father's approval and attention, I think her inner motivation is low self-esteem. She is similar with Daemon in that desire. He didn't want the throne, he suffered from a "second son" syndrome. 

The show has the added layer of the prophecy and destiny thing we can reasonably assume George didn't had in mind for the book. Although since the history is very brief and lacks insight into the inner feelings and desires of the characters, we have literally no clue what drove Rhaenyra to want to be queen. We have a very sketchy and contradicting outside perspective filtered through history.

The one time Rhaenyra talks about her claim and queenship in FaB it fits more with the 'it is my duty' approach from the show since she tells Orwyle that her father made her heir and that's why she is queen. Her take on her claim is not 'I'm the better ruler' or 'I'm stronger' or 'I just bloody want it'.

[Aelwen]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

her father made her heir and that's why she is queen

It is is just her justification of her claim. But she wanted to be the Queen.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Aelwen said:

It is is just her justification of her claim. But she wanted to be the Queen.

We don't know why she wanted to be queen in the book. The only reason she gives is that her father named her heir - and he did that when she was still a little girl and not because she wanted it, but because he and Otto wanted it (at that time). That means her entire campaign could be that of a dutiful daughter, fighting to defend the will or her father and the claims of her sons, not so much her own.

I'm not sure that would be her only motivation, but it is actually the motivation we have.

In that see she might not that different from Robb, say, whose main motivation is to defend the honor of his (late) father, Doran/Oberyn who want to avenge the murder of their sister, or Daenerys and the Stark children, who want to avenge the wrongs done to their parents/siblings.

While it would have been good if the show had given Rhaenyra some of the haughtiness and arrongance that comes with being the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne for decades ... it is not really likely that she would actually view herself as the obvious and rightful heir considering she lived in a society where her being the heir defied tradition and most previous precedents. The only Westeros precedents where an (elder) daughter came before a son would have been Marla Sunderland becoming queen instead of her brother Steffon ... and the succession in Dorne from Nymeria onwards.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Sounds like there’ll be a funeral for Jaehaerys next season. I still have a hard time envisioning how they’ll be able to build on Alicent and Rhaenyra’s relationship after Blood & Cheese. Assuming Alicent witnesses it, I can’t see how she’ll feel anything but loathing for Rhaenyra after that.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sounds like there’ll be a funeral for Jaehaerys next season. I still have a hard time envisioning how they’ll be able to build on Alicent and Rhaenyra’s relationship after Blood & Cheese. Assuming Alicent witnesses it, I can’t see how she’ll feel anything but loathing for Rhaenyra after that.

I'm of the assumption that after B&C, there will be no possibility of a reconciliation between these characters. That's my personal preference because I want more of a morbid mean girl story lol. I would like the show to make Rhaenyra and Alicent more ruthless and intentional with their decisions. No more "misunderstandings" or "accidents". I'm gonna groan if B&C turns out to be some big accident, like a kidnapping gone wrong.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[The Bard of Banefort]

According to photo leaks from Croatia, E5 is when Meleys’ head will be paraded through King’s Landing. So this confirms that Rhaenys will still die early on. Assuming that the Battle of the Gullet is pushed back to S3 though, what’s the climax for this season going to be?

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Sounds like there’ll be a funeral for Jaehaerys next season. I still have a hard time envisioning how they’ll be able to build on Alicent and Rhaenyra’s relationship after Blood & Cheese. Assuming Alicent witnesses it, I can’t see how she’ll feel anything but loathing for Rhaenyra after that.

I guess Rhaenyra will be the first to loathe the bitch queen. The show has Alicent make a big point about wanting to mutilate Luke ... and then Aemond conveniently murders the boy. If Aegon also feasts the moron like he does in the book the Blacks are going to hear about that on Dragonstone and they will draw their own conclusions.

Still, targeting Helaena's children is stupid and will likely not be Rhaenyra's or even Daemon's command. But they will command the death of some Green royal, so Alicent will certainly have reason enough to hate Rhaenyra afterwards.

But since Alicent will end up becoming Rhaenyra's prisoner there is a good chance that they talk a lot and also do address what happened earlier. For instance, to add complexity to the story we could see Aemond claiming he deliberately killed Luke to avenge himself, could see him getting feasted by Aegon ... only for him to be secretly remorseful after Blood and Cheese and confessing to his mother that he did, not in fact, want to kill Luke.

That could come up in a talk between Rhaenyra and Alicent later ... where Rhaenyra could then also tell Alicent that she never commanded the murder of Jaehaerys.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

According to photo leaks from Croatia, E5 is when Meleys’ head will be paraded through King’s Landing. So this confirms that Rhaenys will still die early on. Assuming that the Battle of the Gullet is pushed back to S3 though, what’s the climax for this season going to be?

Possibly the Honeywine or stuff in the Riverlands. The Gullet was never a great climax. It is pointless battle, resolving nothing. Rhaenyra's ascending the Iron Throne would be a great climax, but that's obviously not for next season.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess Rhaenyra will be the first to loathe the bitch queen. The show has Alicent make a big point about wanting to mutilate Luke ... and then Aemond conveniently murders the boy. If Aegon also feasts the moron like he does in the book the Blacks are going to hear about that on Dragonstone and they will draw their own conclusions.

Still, targeting Helaena's children is stupid and will likely not be Rhaenyra's or even Daemon's command. But they will command the death of some Green royal, so Alicent will certainly have reason enough to hate Rhaenyra afterwards.

But since Alicent will end up becoming Rhaenyra's prisoner there is a good chance that they talk a lot and also do address what happened earlier. For instance, to add complexity to the story we could see Aemond claiming he deliberately killed Luke to avenge himself, could see him getting feasted by Aegon ... only for him to be secretly remorseful after Blood and Cheese and confessing to his mother that he did, not in fact, want to kill Luke.

That could come up in a talk between Rhaenyra and Alicent later ... where Rhaenyra could then also tell Alicent that she never commanded the murder of Jaehaerys.

Possibly the Honeywine or stuff in the Riverlands. The Gullet was never a great climax. It is pointless battle, resolving nothing. Rhaenyra's ascending the Iron Throne would be a great climax, but that's obviously not for next season.

I had thought that S2 was going to end with Rhaenyra taking the throne, but I’m not sure if it will now. I suppose they could just have the Gullet be an attack on KL that happens afterwards, but I doubt they’ll change it that much.

Edited May 19, 2023 by The Bard of Banefort

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I had thought that S2 was going to end with Rhaenyra taking the throne, but I’m not sure if it will now. I suppose they could just have the Gullet be an attack on KL that happens afterwards, but I doubt they’ll change it that much.

If Rhaenyra had taken the throne at the end of season 2, then the Gullet wouldn't have been the climax. There are people to grieve for, ruins to visit, and curses to exchange after that mess before we can move on with the plot. Rhaenyra would think she lost two sons in that fight, not just Jace, Corlys will lose his castle and all the treasures (we don't care about in the show).

They seem to be racing pointlessly through the plot, though, which doesn't reflect well on the quality of the next season in light of what they did in the first season.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Rhaenyra had taken the throne at the end of season 2, then the Gullet wouldn't have been the climax. There are people to grieve for, ruins to visit, and curses to exchange after that mess before we can move on with the plot. Rhaenyra would think she lost two sons in that fight, not just Jace, Corlys will lose his castle and all the treasures (we don't care about in the show).

They seem to be racing pointlessly through the plot, though, which doesn't reflect well on the quality of the next season in light of what they did in the first season.

I think that if they were only going to do three seasons, then the pace works fine. The problem is that if they’re going to do four seasons, then they either need to be willing to  write new material to fill the time, or the last season is going to be missing most of the cast. I’m not surprised that Rook’s Rest is in the first half of the season though. It’s the second big plot point after B&C. And in my opinion anyway, there’s not much left for Rhaenys to do at this point.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that if they were only going to do three seasons, then the pace works fine. The problem is that if they’re going to do four seasons, then they either need to be willing to  write new material to fill the time, or the last season is going to be missing most of the cast. I’m not surprised that Rook’s Rest is in the first half of the season though. It’s the second big plot point after B&C. And in my opinion anyway, there’s not much left for Rhaenys to do at this point.

Just two seasons for the Dance proper would only work if they cut a lot of stuff, secondary characters included. Even if they focus on the royal drama only it would be two few episodes.

[The Dragon Demands]

(sorry if some of this is a repost)

Spain Filming Days 1 & 2:

Day 1 was a practice run for the horses, no one in full costume, then they filmed the actual scenes in full costume today Day 2.

There are two big "procession through the streets of King's Landing" scenes they're filming:

One is a funeral procession for Jaehaerys Targaryen. We even have spy photos labeled "JAH funeral". Slight invention from the books - apparently the Greens are hyping up "Rhaenyra is the new Maegor, she had my six year old son killed" etc. It's a big propaganda piece for the Greens to have this big funeral procession.

Second is more straightforward and straight from the books: the severed head of the dragon Meleys being carted through the streets after the Battle of Rook's Rest (which was itself retaliation for the death of Jaheaerys). There's a bluescreen dragonhead prop with spikes on it like her head. 

Notably, it's being accompanied by Crownlander lords who bent the knee during the campaign, or their knights, displaying their heraldry banners: Stokeworth, Rosby, Darklyn of Duskendale, Staunton of Rook's Rest. Interesting as Rosby hasn't appeared in live-action before. 

These street scenes also prominently display Aegon II's book-accurate personal sigil of a GOLD version of the Targaren sigil, for his dragon Sunfyre. Otto used a GREEN three-headed dragon in Season 1 (mentioned off-screen, "there's a ship flying a three headed green dragon that just arrived"). So this foreshadows that Aegon is going to decide he's not Otto's puppet anymore at some point. 

Massive leak from reliable sources on Season 2 structure:

Reliable sources who did good digging on Season 1 to fine the season outline back then are back at it on Season 2 - not the same leak sources they had to find new ones. People like HotD Greek (aka Realm of Dragons) and HotD Croatia, among others. According to their sources:

• Geeta Patel is directing the Jaehaerys funeral procession. No big surprise as we saw her cinematographer there.
• Clare Kilner is directing the Meleys head procession.
• Andrij Parekh is doing episode 6 but we have no idea as to its contents yet.

Moreover, they found out which episodes these are based on their schedules:

• The Jaehaerys funeral procession is episode THREE, meaning Blood & Cheese are in episode 2. I half-hoped they'd push that back to mid-season.
• ....Meleys's severed head parade is in episode FIVE (Kilner said she's doing episodes two and five)...meaning Rook's Rest must be episode FOUR...HALFWAY POINT of an 8 episode season? That's...going a bit too fast.

What the heck would they be doing in episodes 5, 6, 7, and 8 if Rook's Rest is episode 4? Even if episode 5 is mostly "fallout from the battle of Rook's Rest". 

Other spy sources said with clarity that the big battle moved to Season 3 is the Battle of the Gullet....but did they move it to the END of Season 3? Or are they indeed pushing it to the start of Season 3 and....having the fall of King's Landing happen OUT OF ORDER in the Season 2 finale?

Because we have word that Emma D'Arcy has come to Spain to film King's Landing scenes....not confirmed what the specific scenes are yet....THEN AGAIN, if the fall of KL was happening this season, they would ALSO be large scale external scenes we'd have seen spy photos for. We haven't yet.

[The Dragon Demands]

Also I hesitate to mention this, but uh...

a major new location in King's Landing in Season 2 will be the..."Cock Inn".  

There's a plaque of a rooster on the front door.

That's what the boxes of props for it are labeled.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by The Dragon Demands

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t think there’s anything propagandistic about Jaehaerys’ funeral. A decapitated six-year-old (even younger in the show) speaks for itself. Even if Daemon does it without Rhaenyra’s knowledge, it shows that this is the type of person she chose to marry, and this is who’ll be in power beside her as Westeros’ queen.

As for Rook’s Rest, what else would they do up until then? There’s B&C and Jace at Winterfell, and that’s it. Even Daemon taking Harrenhal would only be a few scenes, since there was no major battle. 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As for Rook’s Rest, what else would they do up until then? There’s B&C and Jace at Winterfell, and that’s it. Even Daemon taking Harrenhal would only be a few scenes, since there was no major battle. 

Here is my guess on how the first half the season will be structured if the Battle of Rook's Rest is indeed the final scenes of episode 4.

Episode 1 :

• King's Landing: return of Aemond, scenes between Helaena and her children, arrival of Gwayne Hightower and his appointment in the City Watch under Luthor Largent, green council scenes with Aegon II showing sign he is not all that excited with Otto's slow planning and wants more bold moves like what Aemond did at Storm's End. And a seemingly harmless servant is walking around the castle with his rat traps.
• Dragonstone: early plans for Blood & Cheese, Daemon leaves for the riverlands.
• Eyrie: Jace meets with Jeyne Arryn and leaves for Winterfell.
• Oldtown: introduction of Ormund Hightower, Daeron the Daring and Tessarion, they learn about Viserys's death and the crowning of Aegon II. Ormund starts gathering his army.

Episode 2:

• Winterfell: Jace meets with Cregan Stark at the start of the episode and learns about his brother's death towards the end of the episode.
• King's Landing: Mysaria receives instruction from Daemon "A Son for a Son", she organizes a meeting between Blood and Cheese and sends them to the Red Keep. Jaehaerys is killed.
• Riverlands: Blackwoods vs Brackens, Daemon takes Harrenhal and meets Simon Strong and Alys Rivers.

Episode 3 :

• King's Landing: Funeral for Jaehaerys. A furious Aegon wants action and not letters, he gives the Handship to Criston Cole. With Daemon at Harrenhal, Rhaenyra at Dragonstone, the Velaryon fleet blockade and the black lords in the northern part of the crownlands, King's Landing is at risk to be surrounded. As they don't have the number to deal with the East and West problem right now, Aegon leaves north to deal with those black lords in the crownlands.
• Dragonstone: introduction of Addam and Alyn in the Velaryon fleet.
• Winterfell: Jace leaves Winterfell having won over Cregan Stark.
• Oldtown: Ormund and his army leave Oldtown, Daeron is left behind.

Episode 4: 

• Crownlands: Aegon II and his army arrive at Rook's Rest and there are mentions of the submitting of Rosby, Stokeworth and Duskendale. So that the action is focalised on the imminent battle of Rook's Rest. Ravens are seen flying away from the maester's tower but Criston Cole says it is not important as he has a plan.
• Dragonstone: Staunton's raven arrives at Dragonstone, after discussions Rhaenys volunteers to go aid Rook's Rest.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think there’s anything propagandistic about Jaehaerys’ funeral.

At first I was agreeing with you until I saw the funeral scene they filmed today with the herald saying "Behold, the work of Rhaenyra the Cruel". @The Dragon Demands is right I'm afraid, the greens will use Jaehaerys's funeral as a propaganda tool against Rhaenyra, just like they will do later on with Meleys' head.

[Lord Varys]

That makes it very likely it actually won't be Rhaenyra's work at all. And maybe not Daemon's either. They are not stupid enough for that in the show.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Here is my guess on how the first half the season will be structured if the Battle of Rook's Rest is indeed the final scenes of episode 4.

That is missing the Cargyll attempt which definitely should take place prior to Rook's Rest and be the direct payback for Blood and Cheese. I don't think this would make much sense after Rook's Rest - also, of course, because it takes place earlier chronologically.

Would also be very much surprised if Jace wasted so much time on his tour and if Meleys were the only Black dragon at Rook's Rest in the show. Pretty sure they are setting Rhaenys up to martyr herself to save Rhaenyra. They gave her this silly 'Is she worthy to be the queen' plot in season 1, so the obvious payoff for that is Rhaenys sacrificing herself to save the queen she chose in the end.

If they want to have the moping Corlys plot he could blame Rhaenyra not for her cowardice as in the book but by blaming her more abstractly, for existing, for convincing Rhaenys that her cause was worth dying for.