HOTD Musings

[SeanF]

19 hours ago, $erPounce said:

While I am generally pleased with how the female characters in HOTD are written (except Mysaria), I also understand the criticism.  It is clear that in the show both Rhaenyra and Alicent are whitewashed and portrayed as more reasonable than their book counterparts. They are pretty much considered the moral heart of the show. Both have a very pacifist approach, compared to most of the male characters who are more willing to use violence. Some probably see in this the "Closer to Earth trope" and thus a form of positive discrimination for the female characters.

I must say that how Rheanyra and Alicent are written in HOTD is similar to what happened to Cersei in the GOT show. Show-Cersei is much also much more rational, reasonable and sympathetic than the book version. Almost all the bad deeds that book-Cersei did are done in the GOT show by other characters (such as Joffrey and Margaery), or were presented in such a way that they were justified and done for sympathetic reasons (for example, protecting her children). I don't recall show-Cersei doing anything immoral and unjust between the period after Robert's death (late season 1) and the use of wildfire to kill her enemies (late season 6).

D&D's version of Cersei was very well received by many. There are also many book readers who prefer the show's version of Cersei to the original of the books. This survey shows that.

I think it is possible that the showrunners and writers of HOTD were somewhat influenced by show-Cersei when writing Rhaenyra and Alicent.
 

The problem with show Cersei/Tyrion/Tywin being given a coat of whitewash, compared to the books, is that it upended the tale.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I hope they’re not so tasteless that they actually show Jaehaerys’ head coming off of his body. They seem to be upping the violence to compensate for the lack of sex and nudity though, so I can’t say with complete confidence that they wouldn’t do that. . . 

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I hope they’re not so tasteless that they actually show Jaehaerys’ head coming off of his body. They seem to be upping the violence to compensate for the lack of sex and nudity though, so I can’t say with complete confidence that they wouldn’t do that. . . 

We've got Maelor being pulled apart, as well.

[BlackLightning]

I don't know if this had already been asked but I was wondering what everyone thought about GRRM's comments about where he would've preferred HoTD to start.

Spoiler

But one of the big issues with all of these writers was where to begin? Do you begin with Aegon's conquest? That's a long time ago. Do you begin with, well you saw the show, you saw where Ryan began. And I think he made a great choice. He began in 101 with the great council with the Lord's vote that Jaehaerys's heir, he's just lost his son Baelon, who has died of appendicitis. So who is his heir now. And they choose the Lord's vote to choose Viserys over Rhaenys. and then you immediately skip forward. It's just that one prologue scene. And then you skip forward to skip over Jaehaerys's death, skip over all that. Viserys has been in power for a number of years, and you pick it up with the tournament, the conflict with Daemon, the birth of his male heir. [snip] One of the writers wanted to begin it later, wanted to begin it essentially with Aemma dying. So skipped the great council, skipped the tournament screen sounds out Aemma's dead. That's where you begin. So that was one possibility. And another of the writers wanted to be even later than that to begin with Viserys dying. [snip] And the other possibility we discussed was it was actually my favorite possibility, but nobody liked it except me. I would've began it much earlier. I would've began it like 40 years earlier with a episode I would've called The Heir and the Spare in which Jaehaerys's two sons, Aemon and Baelon are alive. And we see the friendship, but also the rivalry between the two sides of the Great House. And then you know, Aemen dies accidentally when a Myrish crossbowman shoots him by accident on Tarth. And then Jaehaerys has to decide who becomes the new heir. Is it the daughter of the older son who's just died? Or is it the second son who's only, you know, has children of his own and is a man and she's just a teenage girl? You know, all of that stuff. So you could have presented all of that stuff, but then you would've had 40 more years and you would have even more time jumps and you would have even more recasts. And I was the only one who was really enthused about that. So I don't know, but I've always loved the poetry of Rudyard Kipling and I love his poem In the Neolithic Age where the refrain is "There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, And every single one of them is right!" And I think that's true for writing books or television shows. There are many ways you can approach these things, and if you do it well, it can work.

Do you agree with GRRM? Did you think Condal made the best decision?

Personally, even though having the first episode be about Aemon and Baelon's brotherly rivalry and having said episode end with Baelon being made heir at the expense of Rhaenys is a great idea, I would've had the entire first episode be about the Great Council and save the "tournament of the heir" drama for the second episode.

[BlackLightning]

https://www.nme.com/news/tv/george-rr-martin-house-of-the-dragon-begin-earlier-3340271

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@BlackLightning

I agree. Season 1 should have been two episodes longer. One episode at the very beginning should have covered the GC in greater detail, the other help bridge the time jump between episodes 5 and 6.

Add in the occasional flashback about Aemon or Baelon (2-4 minutes) at the beginning or end of a few episodes and I think you'd be set.

GRRM's preference might make the most sense thematically but its definitely not practical or cheap.

Edited April 19, 2023 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[The Bard of Banefort]

Yes, we could have really used an extra two episodes, but those could have been used for the characters we already have. I don’t think we needed to see Aemon and Baelon, or that we even need a flashback. We just need one scene of Rhaenys remembering her father to get the point across.

[Lord Varys]

On 4/17/2023 at 5:00 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I hope they’re not so tasteless that they actually show Jaehaerys’ head coming off of his body. They seem to be upping the violence to compensate for the lack of sex and nudity though, so I can’t say with complete confidence that they wouldn’t do that. . . 

I want to see gore when gore is due. Not watching this stuff for the intricate plot or the well-written and conceived characters.

Also, I want to see Alicent attending and participating in the torture of Blood and her threaten to bathe in the blood of his family.

On 4/17/2023 at 5:11 PM, SeanF said:

We've got Maelor being pulled apart, as well.

That I want to see too. It would be pushing things to a new level. Although on the whole I prefer it to be portrayed as the people involved not actually trying to kill the lad.

The fun thing about the Aemon/Baelon thing is that George himself wanted them to start with stuff he effectively glossed over. We have no clue how Baelon felt over behind put behind Rhaenys in the succession, nor how their respective families felt about each other.

Going with a scenario where Aemon and Baelon were very close ... but their children were not could have been nice (and Aemma could have been a wildcard in all that) but the book doesn't even address the question why Rhaenys and Viserys didn't marry.

If George doesn't bother doing the work I don't understand why the writers of the show should step in and do it for him.

[Annara Snow]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:42 PM, $erPounce said:

While I am generally pleased with how the female characters in HOTD are written (except Mysaria), I also understand the criticism.  It is clear that in the show both Rhaenyra and Alicent are whitewashed and portrayed as more reasonable than their book counterparts. They are pretty much considered the moral heart of the show. Both have a very pacifist approach, compared to most of the male characters who are more willing to use violence. Some probably see in this the "Closer to Earth trope" and thus a form of positive discrimination for the female characters.

I must say that how Rheanyra and Alicent are written in HOTD is similar to what happened to Cersei in the GOT show. Show-Cersei is much also much more rational, reasonable and sympathetic than the book version. Almost all the bad deeds that book-Cersei did are done in the GOT show by other characters (such as Joffrey and Margaery), or were presented in such a way that they were justified and done for sympathetic reasons (for example, protecting her children). I don't recall show-Cersei doing anything immoral and unjust between the period after Robert's death (late season 1) and the use of wildfire to kill her enemies (late season 6).

D&D's version of Cersei was very well received by many. There are also many book readers who prefer the show's version of Cersei to the original of the books. This survey shows that.

I think it is possible that the showrunners and writers of HOTD were somewhat influenced by show-Cersei when writing Rhaenyra and Alicent.
 

That's true of GoT Cersei, who did commit horrible crimes that she didn'ton GoT (multiple child murders, selling a woman into slavery, orderinga hit on the High Septon, giving people to Qyburn to torture, plotting Falyse's death, sexually assauting Taena), but what crimes did Alicent commit in F&B at this point that she hasn't done in the show?She asked for Luke's eye in both. In fact, on HotD she attacked Rhaenyra and cut her arm, and is accomplice after the fact in Larys' double murder/arson, since she didn't report him. Or is letting Viserys' body to rot considered much worse than both of these things?

Rhaenyra? She asks for Aemond to be tortured in both book and show. In that same 1x07 scene. The only thing I can think of is that in F&B she ordered Vaemond's death and supposedly fed his corpse to Syrax. In the show, she didn't seem to  ask Daemon to do it, but was sure content and not shocked at all when he did it. And on the other hand, HotD Rhaenyra definitely plotted a murder of a completely innocent servant on Driftmark with Daemon. In F&B, some people suspected Daemon paid Qarl to murder Laenor, but no one ever suggested that Rhaenyra was in on it. She also was completely unconcerned when one of her suitors, a child, killed another one, and I can't think of any equivalent incident in the book. If anything, based on their actions rather than supposed quotes or the historians' opinioms of her, I would say that HotD Rhaenyra is worse.

It's an odd comparison because 1) neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent at any point, especially not at this point in Rhaenyra's case, do 1/10 of what Cersei does, but people seem to think that they commit many crimes in F&B than they do?

Also, Cersei is a villain in ASOIAF. Neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent are villains (unless we consider almost everyone in the Dance a villain) they are in fact the main characters. You might see Alicent as an antagonist if Rhaenyra is the protagonist but she's hardly villainous. At worst, both are antiheroes.

It seems that the idea of whitewashing mostly doesn't come from these characters' actions, but from the portrayal of their personality traits... which is the second reason why this comparison is odd. We don't actually know their personalities in the book, like we do in ASOIAF and Dunk and Egg, let alone a POV as with Cersei. We just get sketches based on historians' opinions of them (which is mostly about them being power hungry, catty and jealous women). 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Annara Snow

[BlackLightning]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:00 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I hope they’re not so tasteless that they actually show Jaehaerys’ head coming off of his body. They seem to be upping the violence to compensate for the lack of sex and nudity though, so I can’t say with complete confidence that they wouldn’t do that. . . 

I'd prefer if we saw the reactions of Helaena and Alicent rather than Jaehaerys' actual decapitation. That said, I do think it needs to be made clear to the viewer(s) that Jaehaerys has been decapitated. Maybe we just see his head roll?

@Lord Varys Agreed on Maelor. In fact, I think we need to see Maelor's death as it happens unlike Jaehaerys' death.

22 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yes, we could have really used an extra two episodes, but those could have been used for the characters we already have. I don’t think we needed to see Aemon and Baelon, or that we even need a flashback. We just need one scene of Rhaenys remembering her father to get the point across.

Right

And the best time for us to have really explicit/in-depth "let's talk about Aemon and/or Baelon" scene is in an episode that entirely revolves around the Great Council.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

Rhaenyra? She asks for Aemond to be tortured in both book and show.

In the book this is a reaction to Alicent demanding that her son Luke is supposed to be mutilated. And in the show it is quite clearly not a demand for torture ... because if it had been people would have reacted differently. Aemond and Alicent would have been afraid, Viserys would have been aghast, Otto would have been concerned, and Daemon would have smirked, getting off on the fact that Rhaenyra shows teeth.

And the other bystanders would have been shocked. Instead the only thing that happens in the show is that Alicent gets very concerned that Aemond might, correctly, implicate her in telling stories about Rhaenyra's sons. Nobody expects that the boy might be tortured.

In context one would also have to ask the question if torture is really meant there in the book. There is a law that punishes everyone laying their hands of a member of the royal family, so the whole thing would cause all kind of problems even if the king were to consider torturing his own son ... which is, of course, ludicrous.

[The Bard of Banefort]

In retrospect, I think E10 was my favorite and E7 was my least favorite. The dialogue in E7 was just so stilted and on-the-nose (Rhaenyra’s tortured metaphor about the sea that went on forever, Alicent and Rhaenyra monologuing at each other at knifepoint) and the episode left me hating every character on the show.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In retrospect, I think E10 was my favorite and E7 was my least favorite. The dialogue in E7 was just so stilted and on-the-nose (Rhaenyra’s tortured metaphor about the sea that went on forever, Alicent and Rhaenyra monologuing at each other at knifepoint) and the episode left me hating every character on the show.

I'm not sure I have a favorite episode so much as favorite moments in an episode.

[Annara Snow]

On 4/19/2023 at 6:56 PM, BlackLightning said:

I don't know if this had already been asked but I was wondering what everyone thought about GRRM's comments about where he would've preferred HoTD to start.

  Hide contents

But one of the big issues with all of these writers was where to begin? Do you begin with Aegon's conquest? That's a long time ago. Do you begin with, well you saw the show, you saw where Ryan began. And I think he made a great choice. He began in 101 with the great council with the Lord's vote that Jaehaerys's heir, he's just lost his son Baelon, who has died of appendicitis. So who is his heir now. And they choose the Lord's vote to choose Viserys over Rhaenys. and then you immediately skip forward. It's just that one prologue scene. And then you skip forward to skip over Jaehaerys's death, skip over all that. Viserys has been in power for a number of years, and you pick it up with the tournament, the conflict with Daemon, the birth of his male heir. [snip] One of the writers wanted to begin it later, wanted to begin it essentially with Aemma dying. So skipped the great council, skipped the tournament screen sounds out Aemma's dead. That's where you begin. So that was one possibility. And another of the writers wanted to be even later than that to begin with Viserys dying. [snip] And the other possibility we discussed was it was actually my favorite possibility, but nobody liked it except me. I would've began it much earlier. I would've began it like 40 years earlier with a episode I would've called The Heir and the Spare in which Jaehaerys's two sons, Aemon and Baelon are alive. And we see the friendship, but also the rivalry between the two sides of the Great House. And then you know, Aemen dies accidentally when a Myrish crossbowman shoots him by accident on Tarth. And then Jaehaerys has to decide who becomes the new heir. Is it the daughter of the older son who's just died? Or is it the second son who's only, you know, has children of his own and is a man and she's just a teenage girl? You know, all of that stuff. So you could have presented all of that stuff, but then you would've had 40 more years and you would have even more time jumps and you would have even more recasts. And I was the only one who was really enthused about that. So I don't know, but I've always loved the poetry of Rudyard Kipling and I love his poem In the Neolithic Age where the refrain is "There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays, And every single one of them is right!" And I think that's true for writing books or television shows. There are many ways you can approach these things, and if you do it well, it can work.

Do you agree with GRRM? Did you think Condal made the best decision?

Personally, even though having the first episode be about Aemon and Baelon's brotherly rivalry and having said episode end with Baelon being made heir at the expense of Rhaenys is a great idea, I would've had the entire first episode be about the Great Council and save the "tournament of the heir" drama for the second episode.

I don't think that would work. They made the right call.

But I would love some flashbacks just to give viewers an idea that these dragons now fighting each other used to belong to beloved siblings or spouses. Imagine shot of Aemon, Baelon and Alyssa having fun riding Caraxes,  Vhagar and Meleys. Little Rhaenys, Viserys and Daemon talking about the dragons. Jaehaerys and Alysanne riding Vermithor and Silverwing.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't think that would work. They made the right call.

But I would love some flashbacks just to give viewers an idea that these dragons now fighting each other used to belong to beloved siblings or spouses. Imagine shot of Aemon, Baelon and Alyssa having fun riding Caraxes,  Vhagar and Meleys. Little Rhaenys, Viserys and Daemon talking about the dragons. Jaehaerys and Alysanne riding Vermithor and Silverwing.

Feels like people who didn't even bother to include Sunfyre into the coronation scene would do. Their depiction of the dragons is a joke so far.

[Aelwen]

How do you think will be portrayed Daemon and Mysaria relationships? 

They were not as close in the show (or the writers as always, cramp it due time restrictions).

Will they portray Rhaenyra as this only cake-eating, fat, dumb figure? 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Aelwen said:

How do you think will be portrayed Daemon and Mysaria relationships? 

They were not as close in the show (or the writers as always, cramp it due time restrictions).

Will they portray Rhaenyra as this only cake-eating, fat, dumb figure? 

 

The writers have already said that they consider fat Rhaenyra propaganda, so no, I wouldn’t expect that.

[Aelwen]

Ok, she does love cake in the show.

Let's be blunt, book Rhaenyra is worse than Aegon IV. Frankly. I don't know how they going to adapt it to the show. Even mad Dany was better. At least she had her goal. 

 

I hope Mysaria will be a kind of female Varys. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen

[Ran]

I mean, it's obviously intentional on George's part. His descriptions of the characters from 2006 remain unchanged in the final version of the heating written 12 years later. It was an ugly civil war fought by two factions with figureheads who were both suboptimal rulers, but it didn't make the conflict any less real or consequential.

They weren't really fighting on behalf of themselves, anyways, but rather on behalf of their respective branches of the family, when you consider it in purely dynastic terms. This is underscored by the fact that both claimants died before the war was done.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ran

[Aelwen]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

It was an ugly civil war fought by two factions with figureheads who were both suboptimal rulers, but it didn't make the conflict any less real or consequential.

I wish they had a bit more depth in them. Suboptimal shouldn't mean shallow. Nothing is worse than passive characters.

 

Quote

They weren't really fighting on behalf of themselves, anyways, but rather on behalf of their respective branches of the family, when you consider it in purely dynastic terms. 

The  thing is they were not fighting. Rhaenyra only sat and wept, ate her cake; Aegon drank, fought one time and then was in coma or under drugs. Great. 

Other people did all the work. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aelwen