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Here’s my problem with the Nettles-is-Daemon’s-bastard theory. Even if you put aside the details like the two of them taking baths together, that still doesn’t explain why neither of them ever come out and just say she’s his daughter. Rhaenyra wants Nettles dead because she thinks she’s a witch that tamed a dragon and seduced Daemon with sorcery. If Nettles just says, “Hey, this is my dad,” she can prove that she’s both a Valyrian and that she isn’t having an affair with Daemon. If Daemon wants to keep his beloved bastard daughter safe, the best way is to acknowledge her publicly, not to send her away to go hide in the mountains for the rest of her life. It’s not like Daemon has ever tried to hide his philandering. If Nettles is his bastard, that just creates more problems with the plot than it fixes.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The fandom meltdowns are starting up again in anticipation of S2. There’s a brief clip floating around of Daemon charging at Rhaenyra that’s upsetting people. On the one hand, I commend the show for not backing down and sticking to their guns about making Daemon an abuser who isn’t “fixed” by loving the right woman. At the same time, it’s certainly an odd choice for a promo clip.

I'd think that Daemon being pissed at 'craven/weakling Rhaenyra' in the context they are in makes total sense. Even if he were a more caring guy he invested everything he had in that woman and now she seems fail to deliver on the throne/crown front. The idea that he would just sit on his hand and talk to her kindly, etc. when they either have to fight now or risk losing everything they hoped to have/inherit is rather far-fetched.

If Rhaenyra had been more forceful, if he team had been on the same page and determined to do what it took to conquer a throne then there wouldn't have been much of a war and they would have had the throne in a couple of weeks. Perhaps at the price of burned Red Keep and partially destroyed KL and the loss of 1-2 dragons and dragonriders to Vhagar ... but one could easily argue that such a course of action may have been better than the campaign they actually fought which drew things out, ended up killing more people, especially in their own family, than they might have lost otherwise.

In the show Rhaenyra's dragon advantage is even better than in the book as she herself can fly again after the stillbirth and she has another strong dragonrider in Baela and, presumably, Jace whose Vermax is likely as large or even larger than Moondancer.

I'd expect that they either have them figuring out their issues by way of being separate for a time during which they get their priorities straight and Rhaenyra actually grows into the role of queen. Which is effectively her arc in that season. Rhaenyra grows and Alicent diminishes as she loses the power she had acquired as the kingmaker at the end of season 1.

They might fix their marriage again ... or only their political partnership.

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Here’s my problem with the Nettles-is-Daemon’s-bastard theory. Even if you put aside the details like the two of them taking baths together, that still doesn’t explain why neither of them ever come out and just say she’s his daughter. Rhaenyra wants Nettles dead because she thinks she’s a witch that tamed a dragon and seduced Daemon with sorcery. If Nettles just says, “Hey, this is my dad,” she can prove that she’s both a Valyrian and that she isn’t having an affair with Daemon. If Daemon wants to keep his beloved bastard daughter safe, the best way is to acknowledge her publicly, not to send her away to go hide in the mountains for the rest of her life. It’s not like Daemon has ever tried to hide his philandering. If Nettles is his bastard, that just creates more problems with the plot than it fixes.

The bath thing is basically the only thing you can interpret as them possibly having an actual affair. All the other stuff is consistent (and would make more sense) if they were father and daughter or had otherwise platonic thing going on.

Daemon sending away Nettles makes sense in no scenario. Rhaenyra is okay with him fucking Mysaria again after the fall of KL, so why would he believe he could not force her to accept Nettles as his lover? Sure, there is a royal command, but it is ignored and they have two dragons they could turn against Rhaenyra. If Daemon loves Nettles he could try to beat some sense into Rhaenyra or even depose her for Joffrey or Aegon or he could even claim the throne himself with brute force. 

Why does the man send her away and doesn't fly back to KL to do just that? Even more importantly if he felt like it he could also play the Mooton card and turn Green together with Nettles, crowning Aemond and forcing he guy to adapt Daemon's Aegon as his heir, say.

The other big issue is Daemon's sentence 'A queen's words, a whore's work'. He knows that Mysaria deceived and manipulated Rhaenyra into demanding Nettles' head. Which implies he also could have rectified the situation - like Addam effectively did, too. Had Rhaenyra lived he proving his loyalty certainly would have helped them figure things out.

In no scenario would a lover or a father of another dragonrider just shrug, send the daughter/lover away to live a miserable life in the wild while he himself decided to kill himself in a murder-suicide involving another huge dragon.

For some reason Daemon just think his life is over and killing himself by killing Aemond is more important than trying to care for/be there for Nettles, Aegon, Baela, Rhaena, and Rhaenyra.

The show already build up that he has mood swings and suffers from depression at times, so him going out killing Aemond is something they seem to lay the groundwork for already. But to depict that in combination with him finding 'the love of his life' is effectively a nonsensical story they can't adapt. If Daemon is in love with Nettles and then confronted with the order and Rhaenyra's and Mysaria's deplorable nature then the natural reaction there would be anger. He wouldn't feel hurt or betrayed as Nettles would have more or less replaced as affection/love he felt for the other two women in the past. That means little to no chance for him to feel suicidal and hopeless after that. Even if this shit would cause him to want to abandon everything and go away he would rather fly away with Nettles than send her away.

The book scenario makes effectively no sense. This is a story where the sources give us only a rather warped or incomplete picture. And it makes a lot of sense that the show wouldn't even try to complete that picture rather than telling a different story. The outcome - Daemon facing Aemond alone - is likely to remain. But not so much the weirdo Nettles story. Even if Nettles were in the show after all.

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“Dragons. I have no fear of armies. Many and more have broken themselves against my Bloody Gate, and the Eyrie is known to be impregnable. But you have descended on us from the sky, as Queen Visenya once did during the Conquest, and I was powerless to halt you. I mislike feeling powerless. Send me dragonriders.”

- Lady Jeyne Arryn, The Maiden of the Vale.


  So the Blacks send her Tyraxes... Are you kidding me? Joffrey's mount offers little protection from any of the Greens' dragons. It bugged me no end in F&B so I trusted HOTD would offer up a fix. While I'd've had Rhaena claiming an aged-up Grey Ghost - a dragon more suited to her temperament - Daemon's men of the Vale jibe (oft made of lands with LOTS of sheep) hinted at Sheepstealer and his fate and I'm okay with this.

 
  I still think Nettles will appear. As to which dragon she claims, perhaps if Nettles is descended from another Dragonlord family, she'd be capable of bonding with a non-Targaryen dragon! Or maybe it will just be Grey Ghost, I'll leave all that for another season.

 

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But... but... the Maesters said they were chambermates!


  Munken's tale of Cregan and Jacaerys falling head over heels in friendship always read to me as George's sly take on the Historians will say they were roommates trope. Plus of course, there was the whole suddenly feminine "dragon" shenanigans.  I doubted the show would go there but a few things have convinced me they will. For starters;

  • Aegon taunting Jace about finally getting to lie with a WOMAN! (and which hole use?)
  • Rheanyra saying "I would hope, that as men, you can find some common interest." Not that she really knew, though how very Nyra it'd be in knowing the tea that Lord Stark swings both ways while having no idea Borros can't read!
  • Young Lucerys' audition;  Luc: "I do not wish to be different." Jace: "Nor do I (introspectively)... so let us be good sons and please those who love us so they may forget what we lack." Screenwriters just love saying two separate things, at the same time, with the same words, by the same person.

  There were other clues, relating to the casting of Jacaerys and an abandoned storyline cloaked in a wig but that matters not. My only caveat, is that even if a sexual encounter between Jace and Cregan was written and then filmed, it may all end up on the cutting room floor as did Daemon's bisexual aspect. Guess it depends on how brave this time, the producers dare to be.

 

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On 5/30/2024 at 3:39 PM, Jethryk said:

- Lady Jeyne Arryn, The Maiden of the Vale.


  So the Blacks send her Tyraxes... Are you kidding me? Joffrey's mount offers little protection from any of the Greens' dragons. It bugged me no end in F&B so I trusted HOTD would offer up a fix. While I'd've had Rhaena claiming an aged-up Grey Ghost - a dragon more suited to her temperament - Daemon's men of the Vale jibe (oft made of lands with LOTS of sheep) hinted at Sheepstealer and his fate and I'm okay with this.

While I agree that Joffrey isn't the ideal dragonrider ... Tyraxes is not *that* small when he is slain. And remember Tessarion - she was likely not much larger than Tyraxes by the time of her death yet she was arguably used as very effective weapon of war in the Dance.

On 5/30/2024 at 3:39 PM, Jethryk said:

I still think Nettles will appear. As to which dragon she claims, perhaps if Nettles is descended from another Dragonlord family, she'd be capable of bonding with a non-Targaryen dragon! Or maybe it will just be Grey Ghost, I'll leave all that for another season.

As there are non-Targaryen dragons in the book, the show would have to invent some such for that purpose. Which would be odd.

At this time I'd say that the dragon is either one of the wild dragons (Sheepstealer or the Grey Ghost, given a slightly different story) or perhaps even more likely, simply a Morning who hatched much earlier than she does in the show and grows much faster than one might expect to.

The Eyrie would have no dragon facilities, so the chance that a dragon hatching in the Vale would fly away and feast on sheep in the wild is by no means outlandish.

And it clearly seems to be the case that Rhaena is going to take dragon eggs to the Vale. So the plot may be her arriving at the Eyrie only for an egg to hatch immediately upon arrival, perhaps even unexpectedly, and the dragon getting away before Rhaena can bond with her. Eventually she would then track her down in the wild.

The show definitely would have to speed up the growth of certain dragons for them to have an impact on the story as Stormcloud has not hatched in the show yet - but apparently will do so next season. And if they have him they will also include Aegon III's last flight (although perhaps not as early as the Battle of the Gullet but perhaps during the Storming of the Dragonpit or during some other event later in the story).

If we think about how quickly Dany could mount Drogon in the books - he is not even two years old by now - then the idea that a dragon who is only a couple of months could be large enough to be mounted by Rhaena isn't that far-fetched.

If I were writing this I'd explain things by way of Morning going on a virtual killing spree in the Mountains of the Moon, gorging herself not only on sheep but also on all the wild animals she could find. And I'm sure part of the way how George will explain the fast growth of Dany's dragons in the books will also revolve around them eating vast quantities of food in a crucial phase of their growth cycle.

If they go with such a plot, then this would have no effect on the Nettles story which would start in season 3. It could actually foreshadow some parts of it as it might serve as a way to foreshadow how dangerous wild dragons can be to potential riders.

I'm not totally happy with such a scenario, though, as there is a certain symbology to the late hatching of Morning in the book. I'd have preferred it if Rhaena claimed another dragon - the Grey Ghost, preferably - for the war, only for him to die in the war (say, during an attack on the injured Sunfyre together with the Mootons) so that Morning can hatch at the end of the Dance.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

While I agree that Joffrey isn't the ideal dragonrider ... Tyraxes is not *that* small when he is slain. And remember Tessarion - she was likely not much larger than Tyraxes by the time of her death yet she was arguably used as very effective weapon of war in the Dance.

  Tessarion is a third the size of Vermithor while Tyraxes is smaller than Arrax. Effective against troops certainly, which is exactly what Jeyne Arryn doesn't require.

Quote

As there are (no?) non-Targaryen dragons in the book, the show would have to invent some such for that purpose. Which would be odd.

  I'm 99% positive that Cannibal is a non-Targaryen dragon. Assuming he makes it into the show, I'd expect him to pose an ongoing threat needing to be dealt with, rather than a mere cameo during the sowing.

Quote

I'm not totally happy with such a scenario, though, as there is a certain symbology to the late hatching of Morning in the book. I'd have preferred it if Rhaena claimed another dragon - the Grey Ghost, preferably - for the war, only for him to die in the war (say, during an attack on the injured Sunfyre together with the Mootons) so that Morning can hatch at the end of the Dance.

  Grey Ghost would've been perfect but I believe Rhaena and Sheepstealer are a done deal for season 2. You're also right, they won't sacrifice such a powerful moment as Morning in the aftermath. Show Nettles is proving to be even more of an enigma than she was in the book!

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6 hours ago, Jethryk said:

  Tessarion is a third the size of Vermithor while Tyraxes is smaller than Arrax. Effective against troops certainly, which is exactly what Jeyne Arryn doesn't require.

Well, Tessarion was rather effective despite his size, just as Moondancer was. Of course, Tyraxes wouldn't have stopped Vhagar, but it would certainly have influenced the decision-making process of Greens considering attacks on or uprisings in the Vale.

Tyraxes may have been smaller than Arrax in 129 AC, but not necessarily in 130 AC when he died.

The bigger problem there is that Joff is no experienced dragonrider in 129 AC ... but Daeron and Jace weren't that experienced in 129 AC, either, and they rose to the challenge. And Joff certainly did, too, when he died.

6 hours ago, Jethryk said:

  I'm 99% positive that Cannibal is a non-Targaryen dragon. Assuming he makes it into the show, I'd expect him to pose an ongoing threat needing to be dealt with, rather than a mere cameo during the sowing.

That is exceedingly unlikely. There is no confirmation that the Cannibal was even alive up until the reign of Jaehaerys I. And the sources on Dragonstone in the earlier reign of Jaehaerys I are so detailed that an existing Cannibal would have been mentioned. Especially as the dragons there really started to multiply and thrive during Queen Rhaena's time on the island.

It also doesn't really matter where a dragon comes from. Jaehaerys feared the Braavosi Sealord or the triarchs of Volantis could become dragonlords if the stolen eggs hatched. That makes only sense if the people knew or believed that having dragonlord blood is enough to claim any dragon, not that you need to be of a specific dragonlord bloodline to claim a specific dragon bloodline.

In that sense there are no 'Targaryen dragons'. There are only dragons. And those dragons can be more or less domesticated. Dragons hatching from cradle eggs and growing up with humans they bonded with are less dangerous than dragons who became wild after their hatching or dragons who hatched in the wild and had no human contact at all.

The three wild dragons all seem to be survivors of the dragons who hatched in the 50s before Jaehaerys I eventually moved all the dragons to the Dragonpit.

6 hours ago, Jethryk said:

  Grey Ghost would've been perfect but I believe Rhaena and Sheepstealer are a done deal for season 2. You're also right, they won't sacrifice such a powerful moment as Morning in the aftermath. Show Nettles is proving to be even more of an enigma than she was in the book!

It could be a nice moment to have the late hatching of Morning in the show, but it wouldn't be that bad if the moment came earlier. Would then be interesting what Rhaena is going to do with a Morning that hatched earlier, but there are many things she could do.

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I’ve not read all 33 pages so I do apologize if this has been discussed yet or not? But I’m just interested to see what sort of changes are going to be made from Fire and Blood? And please be realistic. As someone who understands that TV Shows are just like normal jobs/workplaces it always panders to make things less complex than their book counterparts.

For me, I believe there will be 2 character combinations that happen to give the actors more screen time during the Dance.

1. Cregan Stark will play the part of Roddy the Ruin. I don’t believe Cregan will be in the first couple of episodes of Season 2 and then not show up again until what the end of 3 / in 4? It is a simple change to make to give Cregan’s actor more screentime.

2. The White Worm will crown Gaemon Palehair. For me it actually just makes sense as they’ve introduced this common born woman who cares for the commoners of King’s Landing and her actress is one of the main cast members so it’s another simple change that gives her character a bit more to do

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3 hours ago, KingStoneheart said:

1. Cregan Stark will play the part of Roddy the Ruin. I don’t believe Cregan will be in the first couple of episodes of Season 2 and then not show up again until what the end of 3 / in 4? It is a simple change to make to give Cregan’s actor more screentime.

Nothing indicates this at this point, and one would prefer Roddy as his own character as the guy has, perhaps, the most badass exit in the entire ASoIaF universe.

Not against an enlarged role for Cregan but that could include in him coming down to KL in person with the Manderly brothers in the wake of Rhaenyra's rise to the throne.

3 hours ago, KingStoneheart said:

2. The White Worm will crown Gaemon Palehair. For me it actually just makes sense as they’ve introduced this common born woman who cares for the commoners of King’s Landing and her actress is one of the main cast members so it’s another simple change that gives her character a bit more to do

That is not a bad idea at all and could actually to make more sense of Mysaria's end which is kind of pointless in the book. She should have known better than to stay back in the city. We could still have Essie and Sylvenna Sand, but Mysaria could be the one who comes up with the idea to make Gaemon king.

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Posted (edited)

I'm IN NYC but didn't wasn't there. Not that I would want to see an advance screening (I'd have to sign an NDA) but I wish I could do Q&A - when else are they even in this continent? Took a photo outside the theater DAY AFTER...

https://x.com/ADragonDemands/status/1797988754386542980

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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Posted (edited)

We've got a good news, bad news situation on our hands here:

Abigail Thorn, prominent trans activist who runs the PhilosophyTube channel on YouTube, mentioned some months ago she'd been cast in House of the Dragon.

This led to theorization she'd been cast as Jess Redfort or Sabitha Vypren (as they are canonical lesbians and Abigail identifies as lesbian). This whole time I said "Maybe Thorn is like a mercenary in the Triarchy fleet, like a Jogos Nhai / Moonsinger type?" (because some subcultures in the Free Cities have different gender models). 

Well, Thorn just confirmed on Twitter today that she is in fact playing a mercenary in the Triarchy fleet - so my guess wasn't that far off (that's the good news).

The BAD news is that she's been cast as "Sharako Lohar, commander of the Triarchy fleet"....leading to speculation that they might have merged Sharako and Racallio Ryndoon into one character.

On the one hand, the internet trolls can't complain as much about casting a transwoman as a character who's genderfluid in the book (how do I even begin to describe Racallio Ryndoon?)....

...on the other hand - if this is true, big if - why not just cast Thorn AS Racallio Ryndoon? Have the characters been merged?!

Because Sharako, you know.... dies, while Racallio goes on to be a major factional leader during the Regency era.

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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Posted (edited)

I doubt there's any deep thought behind it beyond having roles for women. What's actually most interesting is that if you have Lohar showing up... does this suggest the Gullet is happening? A sudden twist to the expected finale where everything seems to be coming up roses for Rhaenyra?

Edited by Ran
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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

We've got a good news, bad news situation on our hands here:

Abigail Thorn, prominent trans activist who runs the PhilosophyTube channel on YouTube, mentioned some months ago she'd been cast in House of the Dragon.

This led to theorization she'd been cast as Jess Redfort or Sabitha Vypren (as they are canonical lesbians and Abigail identifies as lesbian). This whole time I said "Maybe Thorn is like a mercenary in the Triarchy fleet, like a Jogos Nhai / Moonsinger type?" (because some subcultures in the Free Cities have different gender models). 

Well, Thorn just confirmed on Twitter today that she is in fact playing a mercenary in the Triarchy fleet - so my guess wasn't that far off (that's the good news).

The BAD news is that she's been cast as "Sharako Lohar, commander of the Triarchy fleet"....leading to speculation that they might have merged Sharako and Racallio Ryndoon into one character.

On the one hand, the internet trolls can't complain as much about casting a transwoman as a character who's genderfluid in the book (how do I even begin to describe Racallio Ryndoon?)....

...on the other hand - if this is true, big if - why not just cast Thorn AS Racallio Ryndoon? Have the characters been merged?!

Because Sharako, you know.... dies, while Racallio goes on to be a major factional leader during the Regency era.

 

I was under the impression that Racallio was a POC, but I suppose we don’t know that for sure.

29 minutes ago, Ran said:

I doubt there's any deep thought behind it beyond having roles for women. What's actually most interesting is that if you have Lohar showing up... does this suggest the Gullet is happening? A sudden twist to the expected finale where everything seems to be coming up roses for Rhaenyra?

They’ve been teasing a major battle in the finale, and Ryan Condal said that Rhaenyra and Alicent end in opposite spots this season. I would love it if the last shot was Rhaenyra’s hand bleeding on the Iron Throne.

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36 minutes ago, Ran said:

I doubt there's any deep thought behind it beyond having roles for women. What's actually most interesting is that if you have Lohar showing up... does this suggest the Gullet is happening? A sudden twist to the expected finale where everything seems to be coming up roses for Rhaenyra?

Not necessarily - spy photos revealed sets IN Tyrosh, revealing we’ll actually see Green envoys going there to plead with the Triarchy (as in the book)

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Posted (edited)

New wave of character descriptions, changes of note:

*Seems they’ve merged Racallio Ryndoon and Sharako Lohar into one character 

*Oscar Tully is the heir of old Lord Grover Tully. No mention of Kermit.

*Hugh Hammer has a wife and sickly daughter?

*”Eddard Waters” (Maybe Vaemond’s son?) is known as “Red Ned” (for his wrath?)

*Gormon Massey is in fact the father of Elinda Massey

*Michelle Bonnard’s brothel madam from season 1 is named “Slyvie”…perhaps the tv version of Sylvenna?

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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