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Jon Snow, the Coldheart


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7 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

No silly. It’s Roose, Bowen, and Littlefinger. For stopping those nasty Starks 

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I thought for sure it was the Hound, Hot Pie and Gendry!  How could I be wrong?   :o

Don't forget, we may still have Sheepstealer.

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On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

 

 

Feldman10 gave the same defense for Bowen as we have and will continue to do here.  Bowen was a hero that day for summoning the courage to remove Jon Snow from power.  

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8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Different people will interpret the text in different ways, though.

I know that, but there is a limit. I think some of these interpretations, such as Aerys being a good person, are made in bad faith. I really don't think we are meant to read the book and think Bowen is a hero or a martyr. I really doubt the author intended that.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know that, but there is a limit. I think some of these interpretations, such as Aerys being a good person, are made in bad faith. I really don't think we are meant to read the book and think Bowen is a hero or a martyr. I really doubt the author intended that.

Agree. There are plenty of things that are open to interpretation. Others not so much... 

For instance, someone like Ramsay where the reader knows who and what he is. So I guess it isn't really open to interpretation b/c Ramsay is a vile psycho who likes to rape, torture and flay people - especially women. What's left for the reader to decide is whether they like and root for the character or not. 

And cases like Janos Slynt, where we are in Jon's head throughout and we follow his whole thought process. So any claims that Jon killed him for revenge and that Slynt was innocent are either made in bad faith or by someone who really struggles to understand what they're reading, there's no 3rd option.

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Bowen Marsh is not Ramsay, though. I think there is plenty of room for interpretation there.

Yes and no. Sure, he’s not Ramsay and both Jon’s and Bowen’s decisions & motivations can be questioned and debated. But when the argument is “Jon destroyed the NW b/c he’s the NK and he’ll let the Others through and Bowen is a brave hero etc etc” it becomes a pathetic troll post and not a debate. Add to that the fact that that level of absurdity always comes from the Ramsay and Slynt fan group and I can’t take it as a serious argument. But that’s just me. 

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42 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Different people will interpret the text in different ways, though.

That doesn’t mean that anything goes.

Bowen was a hero/Janos was a martyr/Walder was justified/Dany committed genocide of the slavers are not good faith arguments.

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8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I see nothing wrong with Feldman10's interpretation of Bowen. 

 

Good for you? I have no idea who that person is, maybe someone who was active during one of my hiatuses. But if his interpretation is anything like I exemplified up thread, then I’m fine w/ carrying on w/o knowing. :dunno:

Edited by kissdbyfire
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20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There's definitely room for interpretation with regards to how sympathetic Bowen is, but I don't think him as a hero or martyr is at all what the author intended.

No, definitely not. But I think the more nuanced take is that from Bowen's own perspective, he did the right thing because he doesn't have access to Jon's thoughts and emotions the way we do as readers.

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11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

No, definitely not. But I think the more nuanced take is that from Bowen's own perspective, he did the right thing because he doesn't have access to Jon's thoughts and emotions the way we do as readers.

See, I think this is a very valid argument. I don’t agree with it, but it is a valid argument. There’s a huge difference between this and the insanity that is spewed all over the forum though. 

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On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

Bowen Marsh and the knifing part were justified.  Jon had fallen over the edge of reason.  It's not like they could talk him out of attacking the Boltons.  They saw what the long-faced lord commander did to Janos Slynt.  The only way to remove their out of bounds commander was the one they used. 

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Jon will have a cold heart when he comes back because it will be the white walkers' magic that turns him into an ice zombie.  His nature is not really cool.  Jon is hot tempered, erratic, and impulsive.  All those qualities you don't want in a leader.  He wasn't killed for having a cold heart.  He was killed for being a dangerous idiot with an insane plan to attack the Boltons.  Liking or disliking the Boltons should have no part at all when it comes to the duties of the NW.  

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28 minutes ago, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Jon will have a cold heart when he comes back because it will be the white walkers' magic that turns him into an ice zombie.  His nature is not really cool.  Jon is hot tempered, erratic, and impulsive.  All those qualities you don't want in a leader.  He wasn't killed for having a cold heart.  He was killed for being a dangerous idiot with an insane plan to attack the Boltons.  Liking or disliking the Boltons should have no part at all when it comes to the duties of the NW.  

I was kinda with you on the first half. Second half is pure bs.

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On 2/7/2023 at 3:18 PM, kissdbyfire said:

There’s something else for the text-denying folks… 
If you think that Dany would have acted differently if she had been in Jon’s shoes - faced with letting them through and sending a rescue mission to not only save as many as she could but also to avoid them being wightified and joining the enemy -  you clearly don’t understand the character you so blindly worship. 

A different section of the fandom, however, would make the same arguments against Lady Commander Targaryen as against Jon Snow.

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