Jon Snow, the Coldheart

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A different section of the fandom, however, would make the same arguments against Lady Commander Targaryen as against Jon Snow.

Fact check: true.

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:50 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Are you actually comparing the filth that is Bowen Marsh to William Wallace?

No, just honoring Bowen Marsh for having the courage to assassinate Jon. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

On 2/5/2023 at 6:07 AM, SeanF said:

I have a similar criticism to Jon as I do to Dany.

He chose half measures when he should have gone all the way.  Jon should have thrown in his lot entirely with Stannis, just as Dany ought to have been far more ruthless towards the Slavers.

I don't have that "criticism" per se because I admire them for compromising and trying to do the most good for the most amount of people. They do ultimately learn that sometimes stronger measures are necessary, and they should have learned it through trying the less appealing alternatives -- if for no other reason that it's their character, but also because compromise.

But compromise for its own sake is a poison, especially when it's to maintain a false peace that empowers the slaver class (Dany) or to keep a façade of neutrality that weakens the realm while empowering the Lannister regime that exploits it (Jon).

 

On 2/7/2023 at 7:18 AM, kissdbyfire said:

There’s something else for the text-denying folks… 
If you think that Dany would have acted differently if she had been in Jon’s shoes - faced with letting them through and sending a rescue mission to not only save as many as she could but also to avoid them being wightified and joining the enemy -  you clearly don’t understand the character you so blindly worship. 

This, very much so. 

I truly do not understand how these people even exist (on either side). Jon and Dany are essentially the same person!

Edited February 14, 2023 by Many-Faced Votary

[Craving Peaches]

33 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Jon and Dany are essentially the same person!

I've been saying this for ages - they share many qualities and I would expect them to team up and respect each other rather than fight...

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I don't have that "criticism" per se because I admire them for compromising and trying to do the most good for the most amount of people. They do ultimately learn that sometimes stronger measures are necessary, and they should have learned it through trying the less appealing alternatives -- if for no other reason that it's their character, but also because compromise.

But compromise for its own sake is a poison, especially when it's to maintain a false peace that empowers the slaver class (Dany) or to keep a façade of neutrality that weakens the realm while empowering the Lannister regime that exploits it (Jon).

 

This, very much so. /cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_cheers.gif

I truly do not understand how these people even exist (on either side). Jon and Dany are essentially the same person!

That final observation is quite correct.

Neither is a saint, but they’re both trying to do the right thing, in a dark and depraved world.

[Many-Faced Votary]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Neither is a saint, but they’re both trying to do the right thing, in a dark and depraved world.

I do think it is important to keep this in perspective.

Aside from Brienne and possibly Sansa (and note, empathy in Sansa's case is necessarily limited to displays of soft power rather than hard power -- treating people kindly is good, especially for someone who provides comfort because she has nothing else to give despite being a victim herself, but it is not as prominent in scope as actively doing good for other people), I do not see anyone else in the series reach close to the levels of empathy, sympathy, and ultimately, goodness that Jon and Dany possess. It's almost impossible to conceive in our own world, and they live in a much harsher one in many ways.

That isn't to say that other characters lack have these admirable qualities; not at all. Arya has them to a large extent. Tyrion is much darker than the other main characters, but he does have the desire to do good borne from what he has suffered, despite his significant character flaws. Bran has cute moments of showing how much he cares for the people he loves. And so forth. But Dany and Jon's stories ultimately revolve around their empathy, as well as their desire to do good and to fight for a better world, and that isn't really seen elsewhere.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I do think it is important to keep this in perspective.

Aside from Brienne and possibly Sansa (and note, empathy in Sansa's case is necessarily limited to displays of soft power rather than hard power -- treating people kindly is good, especially for someone who provides comfort because she has nothing else to give despite being a victim herself, but it is not as prominent in scope as actively doing good for other people), I do not see anyone else in the series reach close to the levels of empathy, sympathy, and ultimately, goodness that Jon and Dany possess. It's almost impossible to conceive in our own world, and they live in a much harsher one in many ways.

That isn't to say that other characters lack have these admirable qualities; not at all. Arya has them to a large extent. Tyrion is much darker than the other main characters, but he does have the desire to do good borne from what he has suffered, despite his significant character flaws. Bran has cute moments of showing how much he cares for the people he loves. And so forth. But Dany and Jon's stories ultimately revolve around their empathy, as well as their desire to do good and to fight for a better world, and that isn't really seen elsewhere.

Unfortunately, by portraying Dany ultimately as a Nazi,  and then Jon putting her down like Old Yeller, the Abomination poisoned the well.

[Shi Qiang]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

 

 

Bowen did it because Jon had become a traitor to the watch and to Westeros.  Jon was stirring up trouble for everybody. 

[U. B. Cool]

All the other reasons really do not matter at all.  Bowen Marsh killed Jon in order to stop Jon from leading the wildling posse to Winterfell.  Bowen knows he can't stop Jon's army but he can stop Jon.  It would have been a crime against Westeros and a grave dishonor to the Night Watch for its lord commander to attack the House of Bolton.  At least now it is a band of savages attacking rather than the Night Watch. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

38 minutes ago, U. B. Cool said:

All the other reasons really do not matter at all.  Bowen Marsh killed Jon in order to stop Jon from leading the wildling posse to Winterfell.  Bowen knows he can't stop Jon's army but he can stop Jon.  It would have been a crime against Westeros and a grave dishonor to the Night Watch for its lord commander to attack the House of Bolton.  At least now it is a band of savages attacking rather than the Night Watch. 

I, too, would like to learn the ability to somehow read the text and understand not one word of it, and to derive the exact wrong messages from it. Do you have any advice?

[Craving Peaches]

16 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I, too, would like to learn the ability to somehow read the text and understand not one word of it, and to derive the exact wrong messages from it. Do you have any advice?

Step 1: Don't actually read the text.

Step 2: Post.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Step 1: Don't actually read the text.

Step 2: Post.

I figured. but I thought I would give them some benefit of the doubt.

I won't say that they aren't (inadvertently) funny, at least. It certainly makes the boards a lot more interesting.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Many-Faced Votary said:

I won't say that they aren't (inadvertently) funny, at least. It certainly makes the boards a lot more interesting.

It can be funny at times but it also gets really wearing. An example is the thread where we discuss how the Unsullied and Dothraki would do in Westeros. Some people were claiming they would crush everyone with no opposition. Then people pointed out that was unlikely due to military history, terrain and so on. But then just another comment would pop up about how the Unsullied and Dothraki were invincible. And again, and again and again.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

It can be funny at times but it also gets really wearing. An example is the thread where we discuss how the Unsullied and Dothraki would do in Westeros. Some people were claiming they would crush everyone with no opposition. Then people pointed out that was unlikely due to military history, terrain and so on. But then just another comment would pop up about how the Unsullied and Dothraki were invincible. And again, and again and again.

To be fair, they could have been going by the abomination, in which Dothraki and Unsullied have infinite respawns.

I take your point; at that level, it seems absurd. Are we allowed to report them for trolling, or at least for derailing discussion, if it comes to something like that?

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Are we allowed to report them for trolling, or at least for derailing discussion, if it comes to something like that?

I'm not sure. I think you can report a post if it's clearly a troll post, the issue is some of these posts have the barest, most tenuous links to the text, so you could argue they are not troll posts. But it does really disrupt good discussion and just clogs up the thread because no new points are added, just repeating what others said over and over. The best thing to do is probably just to ignore unless you are certain it's a troll post.

[Many-Faced Votary]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure. I think you can report a post if it's clearly a troll post, the issue is some of these posts have the barest, most tenuous links to the text, so you could argue they are not troll posts. But it does really disrupt good discussion and just clogs up the thread because no new points are added, just repeating what others said over and over. The best thing to do is probably just to ignore unless you are certain it's a troll post.

That makes sense. It's also an easy shield to hide behind tenuous links, as discussion in this community has always been inclusive, and I'd say that some fairly popular theories are almost as nebulous (if generally not as deranged) so that it becomes difficult to differentiate. It does suck that interesting conversations can be derailed by repetitive comments like that.

Thank you for the explanation!

Edited February 16, 2023 by Many-Faced Votary

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, U. B. Cool said:

All the other reasons really do not matter at all.  Bowen Marsh killed Jon in order to stop Jon from leading the wildling posse to Winterfell.  Bowen knows he can't stop Jon's army but he can stop Jon.  It would have been a crime against Westeros and a grave dishonor to the Night Watch for its lord commander to attack the House of Bolton.  At least now it is a band of savages attacking rather than the Night Watch. 

Whereas members of a military type organisation murdering their commander b/c they just don’t get it is super duper honourable and totes cool, gotcha.

[LongRider]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Step 1: Don't actually read the text.

Step 2: Post.

Step 3: Move the goalposts when shown to be wrong.

Step 4:  Bring on the sock puppets! 

It's so easy, anyone can do it!

[LongRider]

9 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

To be fair, they could have been going by the abomination, in which Dothraki and Unsullied have infinite respawns.

I take your point; at that level, it seems absurd. Are we allowed to report them for trolling, or at least for derailing discussion, if it comes to something like that?

Yes you can!  And the mods have told us this many times, so don't feel shy if you feel you have a real issue.  See the three dots in the upper right hand corner, click on those to see the report link.

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Whereas members of a military type organisation murdering their commander b/c they just don’t get it is super duper honourable and totes cool, gotcha.

And makes for good trolling!