Jon Snow, the Coldheart

[Curled Finger]

What I find most interesting in these conversations is the utter hopelessness of all the participants' decisions.  Outcomes are so limited as it seems are their options.  While I am dubious regarding certain loyalties to power beyond the Nightwatch such as Stannis (Jon) or the Lannisters (Marsh), Jon and Marsh's loyalty to the Watch are without doubt in my estimation.  What I am unsure about is the punishment if any Jon actually deserved for announcing his intentions to divide NW forces between a rescue mission at Hardhome and riding for Winterfell.  Ned gets a lot of flack for announcing his intentions to Cersei.  Jon gets a lot of flack for not sharing his plans.  Doesn't seem to be any real middle ground here.  In my reading of Jon's interactions with Marsh, Bowen is never satisfied.  He seems to bitch about everything without ever listening or probing.  Jon of course, offers little beyond "this is how it is, like it or lump it."  While Jon's heart is very much about diplomacy, his words leave much to be desired.  Conversely, Bowen does not like any of this interaction with the Wildlings even a little bit.  He is a numbers guy, winter is coming and there are too many mouths to feed.  He doesn't know about the deals Jon has made.  This whole alliance with the Wildlings is simply too weird for him.  Jon should understand that by now and recognized the threat in all the older Black Brothers.  Had Jon taken into his confidence regarding loans and plans would Marsh have behaved differently? 

Ultimately what I see between the old guard and new guard is definition of the Nightswatch.  I find it ironic that the younger group, including the Wildlings, operates far closer to the original mission of the NW than the older establishment ever dreamed.  While this ancient outpost has been left to its own devices for millennia, time has caught up to it and called it to order once again.  The Nightswatch's purpose is resurrected and like any powerful spirit will impose its will on its people or tools.   In that light things don't look good for Marsh and his bad of merry buzz killers.  Not good at all.  But I do think that what magic there is in The Wall and the Nightswatch and the north and Stark blood will be with Jon.  Seems he is the right forward thinking guy for the job.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I wasn't asking for proof the demands couldn't be fulfilled. I asked for proof Ramsay would attack the whole watch when the demands weren't fulfilled.

The original claim was that it should have been obvious, from Bown's POV, that Jon was defending the watch when he made his shieldhall speech and I disagreed.  

As an aside I think guest rite doesn't enter into this. Breaking guest rite means attacking your host or your guest. I don't think it means you can't turn them over the king or his warden. Jon Arryn raised his banners because he didn't want to see Robert/Ned murdered not because guest rite left him no choice in the matter. 

I don’t think that killing the Lord Commander, if the demands remain unfulfilled, can be achieved without attacking the Watch.

The last point then leads to the question who is the King?  Stannis or Tommen?  Whose writ actually runs in the North?

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

'Jon, the Coldheart'.

Silly me.  I thought this was a reference to Coldhands only Jon will be Coldheart.  I dp like the idea of Jon as an ice dragon though.

[James West]

The execution of Jon Snow is one of the most discussed topics.  Bowen Marsh, a minor character, was right in executing the rogue commander, Jon Snow.  The chapters leading up to it were very carefully written to show why Jon was in the wrong and why the Crows had to take him down.  

[Roswell]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

 

 

Jon abused the authority entrusted to him.  His intent to start a war with Ramsay is a violation of all the Watch stood for and it is wrong.  Bowen Marsh is not the villain here. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

Jon abused the authority entrusted to him.  His intent to start a war with Ramsay is a violation of all the Watch stood for and it is wrong.  Bowen Marsh is not the villain here. 

Not when Ramsay threatened to slaughter them all and he absolutely is

Edited February 6 by Prince Rhaegar Targareyen

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Not when Ramsay threatened to slaughter them all and he absolutely is

No no, you don’t understand.  Ramsay is a saint.

[Damsel in Distress]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

 

 

Jon had a simple mission.  Keep his nose out of Ramsay's way.  Mind the business of the watch and only the watch.  Arya was not important enough compared to the mission of the watch.  The assassination and the coming dissolution of the watch in Winds of Winter would not happen if Jon had only had the self control to keep out of Ramsay's personal affairs.  Ramsay didn't start the fight.  Jon did that when he took fake Arya from Ramsay. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

1 hour ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Jon had a simple mission.  Keep his nose out of Ramsay's way.  Mind the business of the watch and only the watch.  Arya was not important enough compared to the mission of the watch.  The assassination and the coming dissolution of the watch in Winds of Winter would not happen if Jon had only had the self control to keep out of Ramsay's personal affairs.  Ramsay didn't start the fight.  Jon did that when he took fake Arya from Ramsay. 

Jon’s only crime was sending Mance to SAVE Arya. BUT Marsh had no idea that even happened. As far as he knew, Mance was dead and the psychotic Ramsay was throwing baseless accusations around. Marsh is indefensible. Period.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

 

 

The subject needs be changed to 'Bowen, the Braveheart.'  The poor Crannog man had to ruin his own honor to save the Watch from Jon.   

Edited February 12 by The Lord of the Crossing

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The subject needs be changed to 'Bowen, the Bravenheart.' 

Are you actually comparing the filth that is Bowen Marsh to William Wallace?

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Are you actually comparing the filth that is Bowen Marsh to William Wallace?

Nah, he just misspelled the word by typing B instead of C. Hang on, I’m gonna fix it…

 

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bowen, the Bravenheart.'

Bowen the Cravenheart

There, all fixed now. You’re welcome! 

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nah, he just misspelled the word by typing B instead of C. Hang on, I’m gonna fix it…

 

Bowen the Cravenheart

There, all fixed now. You’re welcome! 

Bowen, the fuel for R’hllor’s fires.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I just wanted to say that if this does end up becoming a series of threads, then I’m very much looking forward to “Arys, the Oakheart”.

[SeanF]

It is quite widely known in the North that Ramsay Bolton murdered his former wife, and hunts, rapes, and flays women for kicks.

The notion that the morally correct course of action is to turn one’s back on one’s sister, when she is being forcibly wed to such a creature, is nonsense on stilts.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It is quite widely known in the North that Ramsay Bolton murdered his former wife, and hunts, rapes, and flays women for kicks.

The notion that the morally correct course of action is to turn one’s back on one’s sister, when she is being forcibly wed to such a creature, is nonsense on stilts.

I couldn’t agree more. And I’ll add that turning one’s back on anyone who is being subjected to this type of horror and abuse is something only the vilest, most self-serving & despicable individuals would do. 

[sweetsunray]

On 2/5/2023 at 7:24 PM, Curled Finger said:

Had Jon taken into his confidence regarding loans and plans would Marsh have behaved differently? 

While I agree with most of your post, I think this assumption that Bowen, the accountant of the Watch, wouldn't know about acquiring a loan from the Iron Bank is a step too far.

It's not as if it was a secret at the Wall who Tycho Nestoris was, that he met with Jon, that Tycho allowed the NW to use his ships for the first rescue attempt of Hardhome. Sure, we don't have a specific meeting where Jon gives Marsh the good news about this, but surely we don't need that. We have had several meetings between Jon and Marsh about the food stores, rationing, etc. Jon entrusts Marsh with tallying all that the wildlings gifted the NW to be allowed to cross, which Jon wants to send to Eastwatch and from there to the Iron Bank as part of the repayment of his loan. If Marsh is to tally that and is even entrusted to communicate with Eastwatch about this, I don't think one has much a case for claiming Jon kept the awarded loan a secret.

So, we can say - No, Marsh did not behave differently.

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The notion that the morally correct course of action is to turn one’s back on one’s sister, when she is being forcibly wed to such a creature, is nonsense on stilts.

People try and claim Jon attacking Ramsay is legally wrong but there is no actual law that says the Watch can't take part, just some sort of tradition. Neutrality isn't even in their vows. And the principles of Natural Law would require Ramsay to be brought to justice and his wife to be saved.

[kissdbyfire]

And just to expand on Jon not trying to explain things to Marsh, Yarwick and others, I don’t agree w/ this notion. Jon meets and has several conversations w/ them several times throughout Dance. Up until the point where he realises it’s pointless. 
 

ADwD, Jon XI
 

“The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?”

  It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”

  “Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”

  “None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”

  Ask Janos Slynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”

  Yet even that did not appease his Lord Steward. “You say these boys will serve as squires. Surely the lord commander does not mean they will be trained at arms?”

  Jon’s anger flared. “No, my lord, I mean to set them to sewing lacy smallclothes. Of course they shall be trained at arms. They shall also churn butter, hew firewood, muck stables, empty chamber pots, and run messages … and in between they will be drilled with spear and sword and longbow.”

  Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”

  “I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”

  “They were. As the lord commander knows.”

  “Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?”

  Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.”

ADwD, Jon XIII

Yarwyck was no more helpful. "If the wildlings at Hardhome need saving, let the wildlings here go save them. Tormund knows the way to Hardhome. To hear him talk, he can save them all himself with his huge member."

This was pointless, Jon thought. Pointless, fruitless, hopeless. "Thank you for your counsel, my lords."

Satin helped them back into their cloaks. As they walked through the armory, Ghost sniffed at them, his tail upraised and bristling. My brothers. The Night's Watch needed leaders with the wisdom of Maester Aemon, the learning of Samwell Tarly, the courage of Qhorin Halfhand, the stubborn strength of the Old Bear, the compassion of Donal Noye. What it had instead was them.

[kissdbyfire]

There’s something else for the text-denying folks… 
If you think that Dany would have acted differently if she had been in Jon’s shoes - faced with letting them through and sending a rescue mission to not only save as many as she could but also to avoid them being wightified and joining the enemy -  you clearly don’t understand the character you so blindly worship.