What's the point of the RGB color clues?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

For reasons still unclear, GRRM has peppered in his story relating to Red-Green-Blue color trios.

• There's the Red Fork, Green Fork, and Blue Fork of the Trident.
• There's the red, green, and blue triskelion design of House Massey's sigil.
• There's the terrain squares of the cyvasse board, made from carnelian, jade, and lapis lazuli.
• And there are the infamous Muppet names in House Tully: Elmo, Kermit, Oscar, and Grover.

There might be more of these that have not been found yet. But it seems clear to me that he's leaving some sort of clue. But for what?

What the red, green, and blue colors immediately called to my mind at first are some types of magic in the story. There's ice, fire, and the magic of the greenseers.

These three magics do seem the most thematically important for ASOIAF: the three linked to ecology and the story's building premise of averting or bringing on some coming devastation. 

But here's the thing: the Fire, Ice, and Greenseeing factions of magic are as clear as day in the story itself. There is no need for GRRM to drop hints in the worldbuilding details to suggest to readers something that's already quite obvious.

So what is the point of peppering the story with RGB color trios?

(and if you wish to also consider my topic post question about the secrets of ice, fire, and greenseeing, that's of course welcome. I myself tend to consider them together)

[Craving Peaches]

Sorry if this sounds stupid but RGB reminds me of the colours emitted by television screens.

[kissdbyfire]

There's also this obvious one: ice/blue fire/red trees/green. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There's also this obvious one: ice/blue fire/red trees/green. 

True, though I tend to link those to their respective magics. With the greenseers seeming to be most conducive to temperate fertile climates including greenery.

[kissdbyfire]

36 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

True, though I tend to link those to their respective magics. With the greenseers seeming to be most conducive to temperate fertile climates including greenery.

Oh I definitely link those w/ magic as well. My point was that the main magical elements in the story also have this RBG link, so to speak. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

RBG are also the colours used in the sigils of House Strong, Hoare, and Shawney.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh I definitely link those w/ magic as well. My point was that the main magical elements in the story also have this RBG link, so to speak. 

Yes, for sure.

Just so you know, that first reply of mine was made while trying to cook pancakes, which is never a good idea.

I meant to add that, while those associations makes sense, and I lean there as well, it doesn't seem like something that GRRM would need to seed with clues throughout the story.

Isn't it somewhat self-evident given the premise of the magical factions? The myths and legends are admittedly a bit foggy, but at least the Others/Dragonriders/Greenseers seem to be the most important magical actors in the story. I agree that their respective terrains are important, but what might be some reasons to seed such a clue? And similarly, what is GRRM keeping secret about each of these factions, and why?

I mentioned in my Landkings post what my own take is, so I'm trying to go beyond my own confirmation bias to see what might be some other plausible explanations.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Just so you know, that first reply of mine was made while trying to cook pancakes, which is never a good idea.

[Vegan] Pancakes are always always a good idea!

And yes, I see what you mean. But maybe there’s something to looking at it the other way about? 
ETA: as in the other RBG clues tie in w/ the different magical aspects? 

Edited February 5, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Phylum of Alexandria]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

ETA: as in the other RBG clues tie in w/ the different magical aspects? 

By this, do mean you that maybe passages about Elmo vs Oscar Tully, or the people who are at a specific fork of the Trident, might shed some light on magic?

That could be, and Evolett has provided some interesting analyses in that vein.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Flames burn green and blue and black, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh. Aegon is the green, Jon is the Blue, and Daenerys is the green. When the colors are red, green, and blue, Daenerys is the red. 

[Seams]

When I saw the title for your thread, I thought you had abbreviated Rainbow Guard to RBG. (It took a second to see that you had written RGB.) That group includes six colors (there is no indigo guard) and each color seems to have attributes such as flowers, birds, bugs and/or fruit associated with it. This would tend to support Renly's status as a god of flora and fauna or summer king.

But Renly has not got a monopoly on red, blue and green symbolism or on other colors.

I don't think each color has only a single meaning or function: blue can be a sky color or a sapphire color or the blue fork of the Trident. On the other hand, the blue sigil of House Arryn is associated with a seat (castle) made of marble imported from Tarth. So maybe GRRM is trying to give us hints about a consistent meaning for blue and there may be similar overlapping elements for other colors. Red is a fire color for instance, but why does Melisandre have red eyes and why do weirwoods have red leaves?

Combinations  of colors may also have meanings. In the Dunk & Egg thread in the re-read forum, I theorized that orange and argent (white or silver) are Targaryen colors - maybe because the orange is a fire color and the "argent" is part of the garnet / Targ wordplay. House Ashford uses these colors in their sigil and I believe this is a sign to readers that a significant Targaryen plot twist will take place at their tourney. 

What we know of The Trident may help us to solve the red, blue and green clues. Rhaegar was killed by Robert at the Ruby Ford of the Red Fork. Rubies came off of his armor and eventually washed up on the Quiet Isle. Catelyn and Robb died at the Green Fork. Maybe we need to see the Blue Fork in the next books to finally understand why the three forks are associated with these colors. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

I don't think each color has only a single meaning or function:

I agree. What I mean by "RGB color clues" is a detail in the storytelling that is specifically a color trio of red-blue-green. There aren't too many of them out there, but enough of them to think that it's more than mere coincidence. 

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I agree. What I mean by "RGB color clues" is a detail in the storytelling that is specifically a color trio of red-blue-green. There aren't too many of them out there, but enough of them to think that it's more than mere coincidence. 

I think the Trident is the key one though - it looks so much like a giant's weapon, appearing in a geography with so very many names of body parts. What could be bigger than that?

I found an old discussion on the Trident here - short, but worthwhile.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think the Trident is the key one though - it looks so much like a giant's weapon, appearing in a geography with so very many names of body parts. What could be bigger than that?

I found an old discussion on the Trident here - short, but worthwhile.

I agree, I think it's one of the most important ones. For me, it's a visual display of the "Three Singers" passage in TWOAF. The ancient weirwoods planted by Garth Greenhand, growing until they resemble one weirwood. I happen to take this to mean terrain-based weirwood factions, and a clue to the readers: "you think there's one type of weirwood, but there's actually three. The Blue Team, the Red Team, and the Green Team."

Here I am wondering what other people's takes might be, as my own confirmation biases could be limiting my thinking. 

Thanks for the thread link. I'll check that out later.

[Springwatch]

36 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I agree, I think it's one of the most important ones. For me, it's a visual display of the "Three Singers" passage in TWOAF. The ancient weirwoods planted by Garth Greenhand, growing until they resemble one weirwood. I happen to take this to mean terrain-based weirwood factions, and a clue to the readers: "you think there's one type of weirwood, but there's actually three. The Blue Team, the Red Team, and the Green Team."

Here I am wondering what other people's takes might be, as my own confirmation biases could be limiting my thinking. 

Thanks for the thread link. I'll check that out later.

Well, to disrupt you further, I'll suggest that the green faction aren't weirwoods, but the Haunted Forest, and maybe trees generally. Very ordinary trees, but lots and lots of them, and very, very often described in terms of violence. Might add up to something.

[Evolett]

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

What I mean by "RGB color clues" is a detail in the storytelling that is specifically a color trio of red-blue-green. There aren't too many of them out there, but enough of them to think that it's more than mere coincidence. 

I'm not sure if anyone's talked about the trident symbol itself in related threads discussing this dilemma but it suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks so I'll mention it here just in case:

The trident symbol is the 23rd letter in the Greek alphabet, called PSI. PSI stands for the study of psychic powers and ablities. It also refers to psychic phenomena and to anything paranormal. In the field of parapsychology, Psi includes extra sensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis.  Telepathy, clairvoyance (second sight) and precognition are amongst the list of subjects studied. 

But that's not all. The planet Neptune is denoted by the same symbol (from trident wielding Greek Poseidon and Roman Neptune). In astrology, Neptune stands for illusions, mysticism, escapism, spiritualism, the blurring of boundaries, extreme sensitivity, and transcendent experiences, amongst other nebulous things. 

Eureka or no? It is for me . So, if the trident is the leading symbol that unifies the trio of colours, then the unifying element must definitely be magic or in other words, the paranormal activities going on in the books. And the beauty of it is, the symbolism isn't limited to RGB colours alone. As noted before, the Trident river with its three forks can symbolize a tree and its branches as well as antlers. With the help of this, one can figure out where the magic "flows." 

Houses associated with the RGB trio must be those carrying this magic potential in its entirety, are the source of its propagation or otherwise serve as triggers for it. House Strong is a good example. Larys comes across as one with "seeing" powers. Ser Harwin and especially Ser Lucamore Strong are the Garth types who spread their seed - Lucamore had 16 children with three different women, breaking his kingsguard vows. His kids were spread out all over the place but their "seed" surely lives on. "The seed is strong" motif is surely related to this. As to the Tullys, I feel my theory on Catelyn being the source of Bran's greenseeing powers confirmed. 

As to the type of magic represented by the colours.. GRRM may have given us a significant clue if the interpretation of the trident symbol is correct: House Manderly's sigil depicts a merman holding a black trident and their halls are decorated with unterwater scenery. Old Fishfoot, as the merman is called, is styled in green. Green hair, green beard, green fishtail. Water is the merman's domain. Wyman Manderly's daughter has green hair (dyed or natural is not stated). This suggests the green stands for water rather than for vegetation (water magic).

Riverrun is on the Red Fork, its waters are a muddy red from mud and silt coming from the western mountains. There is red clay on the southern shore. My guess is this red represents blood as opposed to fire. (Perhaps Astapor is also a hint - blood and bricks built Astapor - bricks are made of clay /mud. 

The next one is controversial but might work. Blue. The power of the trees, all the trees and all vegetation, their life force, is blue. Why? For one, we have the example of the black trees of Qarth with their blue leaves and the associated blue shade of the evening plus the pulsing indigo of the Undying. Indigo could be a corruption of blue - the source of the spoiled meat taste in the drink. So, I've been thinking the magical force within vegetation as a whole can be visualized as being blue.
There's a wordplay hint to this as well that I keep forgetting to add to the Puns and Wordplay thread:

Sapphires. Sap - phires. Sap- Fires. The fires of sap - the fires, the life force, magical force of sap, of the trees. Sapphires are blue and stand in contrast to Mel's rubies that mediate her fire magic. Remember, Jojen tells us that there is power in a wood, a power as strong as fire. I'm personally sold on the idea that the power of a wood can be visualized as the colour blue. 

 

18 hours ago, Seams said:

Rhaegar was killed by Robert at the Ruby Ford of the Red Fork.

Is the Ruby Ford on the Red Fork? The Ford's location is very vague. There's no record of it on the maps, only unclear statements of a location near Lord Harroway's Town and near the Inn at the Crossroads. The former is on the Trident proper. I imagine it's the crossing of the Kingsroad over the Trident, but perhaps I've missed something.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Evolett

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Is the Ruby Ford on the Red Fork?

Could it have been named after the end of rebellion for all of the rubies that flew off the amour of Rhaegar when Robert pounded him with his hammer?  Might be.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

The trident symbol is the 23rd letter in the Greek alphabet, called PSI.

That's brilliant! GRRM himself uses "psi" as short for psionic powers in some of his earlier works, such as Tuf Voyaging. And I'm completely down with ravenous reader's observation of a green sea/greenseeing link in the writing, as well as with Patchface's visions "under the sea." This symbol works well within that context.

I doubt that GRRM would intend such a bad pun, but I can't help thinking of the Stark siblings all psychically linked to one another via their wolves as a form of "nep-tuning."  

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

As to the Tullys, I feel my theory on Catelyn being the source of Bran's greenseeing powers confirmed. 

I have been leaning in this direction as well recently, as Ned in AGOT really seems to be coded for cold traits. Not that his blood couldn't carry both types, but we can't ignore the possibility that the greenseeing magic actually comes from Catelyn.

Certainly readers are tempted to associate all of the weirwood-linked powers to the people shown actively worshipping them in the story, the rulers of the North, but blood and ancient history are different matters, and the Riverlands are potentially quite important to the magical story. Not for nothing is the God's Eye located right there, quietly lurking just slightly offscreen from the action of the main story.

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

This suggests the green stands for water rather than for vegetation (water magic).

I used to think of green magic as water magic, but I no longer think the distinction holds. The Poseidon/Trident symbol itself a unifying water theme for psionic ability. The Others' ice magic is a water magic of a sort. And maybe it's not much, but even Dany's magically instantiated ability to resist heat was introduced to us via her love for scalding hot waters. I think it's more about temperature, climate, and resulting terrains. So maybe Team Green is about flowing fresh waters that allow vegetation, but I wouldn't say water alone.

As for Old Fishfoot, I agree with Crowfood's Daughter that he sounds quite Garth-like. But these details jump out to me:

"Inside was a cobbled square with a fountain at its center. A stone merman rose from its waters, twenty feet tall from tail to crown. His curly beard was green and white with lichen, and one of the prongs of his trident had broken off before Davos had been born, yet somehow he still managed to impress. Old Fishfoot was what the locals called him. The square was named for some dead lord, but no one ever called it anything but Fishfoot Yard."

Garth planted the Three Singers, so it makes sense that he would wield the psi trident. And his green and white lichen calls to mind the green and white sigil of House Gardener.

But he's also a stone merman, and one of his prongs has broken off. To me, this calls to mind the corrupted trees that we call Shade-of-the-Evening. I do think that Asshai used to be the seat of great power for Team Green, as it was once the fertile center of a vast empire, and so it makes sense that the corrupted trees we see represent the fallen state of that Dawn empire. My guess is that when they were alive and well, those were weirwoods that sported the colors of House Gardener, white and green.

But something is amiss here, as we do still have weirwoods in the North. Wouldn't that mean the prong didn't completely break off? Or do the weirwoods actually represent Team Red? They do represent vital warmth against the cold...yet it's not like they are impervious to fire, or could survive in the Fourteen Flames. Perhaps the broken prong is not providing a complete one-to-one account of what happened, but is merely suggesting that damage was done to one of the prongs. I'm leaning in that direction, but I'll have to think about it some more.

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

Riverrun is on the Red Fork, its waters are a muddy red from mud and silt coming from the western mountains. There is red clay on the southern shore. My guess is this red represents blood as opposed to fire. (Perhaps Astapor is also a hint - blood and bricks built Astapor - bricks are made of clay /mud. 

Riverrun is named after the first two words in James Joyce's dense stream-of-consciousness book Finnegan's Wake, a work that's rife with "mysticism, escapism, spiritualism, the blurring of boundaries, extreme sensitivity, and transcendent experiences, amongst other nebulous things." 

Interestingly, the red mud of the Red Fork comes from mountains from the West. When I came up with my Landkings theory about cyvasse and the tri-colored terrains, it all started from the red squares representing mountains. I tend to interpret most red in the story as having some sort of heat imagery to it, unless GRRM goes out of his way to make it seem dull or muted.

Certainly Tywin argues that rubies give off a hotter color than garnets:

"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire.".

But it's not to say that garnets give off no heat. Ghost has eyes compared to garnets rather than rubies, and yet his warmblooded lusts and furies are important symbols of Jon's stance against the cold threat from the North (while also standing apart from the outright fiery ruby-equipped priestess who would force Lord Jon to burn his weirwoods).

Back to the Riverlands, it should be noted that Cat and her brother both have some fiery qualities to them, and Catelyn is eventually resurrected by fire magic. I think it remains a possibility to consider.

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

The next one is controversial but might work. Blue. The power of the trees, all the trees and all vegetation, their life force, is blue. Why? For one, we have the example of the black trees of Qarth with their blue leaves and the associated blue shade of the evening plus the pulsing indigo of the Undying. Indigo could be a corruption of blue - the source of the spoiled meat taste in the drink. So, I've been thinking the magical force within vegetation as a whole can be visualized as being blue.
There's a wordplay hint to this as well that I keep forgetting to add to the Puns and Wordplay thread:

Sapphires. Sap - phires. Sap- Fires. The fires of sap - the fires, the life force, magical force of sap, of the trees. Sapphires are blue and stand in contrast to Mel's rubies that mediate her fire magic. Remember, Jojen tells us that there is power in a wood, a power as strong as fire. I'm personally sold on the idea that the power of a wood can be visualized as the colour blue. 

Well, I love the sap fire pun. And certainly clear blue water is a potent symbol of vegetation and fertile land. But...so is the mossy water of the Green Fork. Not to mention, blue so often has a cold connotation in the story.

Blue has been shown to be the color of the Others: their eyes, their blood, and their ice swords as well. The cold remote Eyrie is represented by similar coloring via the sigil of House Arryn.

We don't seem to get information about the Blue Fork that might have some additional symbolic value. Maybe it's significant that Harwyn Hoare of the often cold-coded Iron Born conquered the Riverlands by entering the Blue Fork?

Lots to think about!

Edited February 12, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[Evolett]

On 2/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Certainly readers are tempted to associate all of the weirwood-linked powers to the people shown actively worshipping them in the story, the rulers of the North, but blood and ancient history are different matters, and the Riverlands are potentially quite important to the magical story. Not for nothing is the God's Eye located right there, quietly lurking just slightly offscreen from the action of the main story.

We compartmentalize too much, imo. I don't think it's as simple as that either. 

On 2/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Interestingly, the red mud of the Red Fork comes from mountains from the West. When I came up with my Landkings theory about cyvasse and the tri-colored terrains, it all started from the red squares representing mountains. I tend to interpret most red in the story as having some sort of heat imagery to it, unless GRRM goes out of his way to make it seem dull or muted.

In this case the red mud is associated with a flowing river, so I'm inclined to think of it as blood. Muddied blood, dirty blood, black blood? There is also this passage describing the confluence of the Tumblestone and Red Fork which alludes to a spear driving into the side of the Red Fork:

Quote

Beneath her, the swift wild Tumblestone plunged like a spear into the side of the broad Red Fork, its blue-white current churning the muddy red-brown flow of the greater river. A morning mist hung over the water, as thin as gossamer and the wisps of memory.

You get this sense of one river attacking another and a flow of blood. The Tully colours are red and blue and the Blackfish thinks of the color of the muddy red river as Tully red. Perhaps this indicates that Tully blood has been "muddied" by magic. They do have a fire component too, their red hair, but I see that as being separate from the blood river allusion. 

In Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree story, she mentions the little crannogman being able to turn mud into water and water into mud. The gift of alchemy? Or does this mean he can rid/clean magical blood of its magical properties or otherwise be a catalyst for invoking magic in otherwise non-magical people? Just a thought. 

Regarding rubies, Rhaegar's rubies are linked to drops of blood while Mel's play a role in her fire magic, giving us fire and blood symbolism. Rhaegar was killed at the Ruby Ford, somewhere on the Trident. Being a ford, it may represent the crossover or coming together of fire and blood at that point. 

 

On 2/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire.".

But it's not to say that garnets give off no heat. Ghost has eyes compared to garnets rather than rubies, and yet his warmblooded lusts and furies are important symbols of Jon's stance against the cold threat from the North

Yes that does seem contradictory but Jon's thoughts are probably helpful in determining the difference here:

Quote

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. 

The stone wolf carving of Ghost on Longclaw has garnet eyes. For comparison, the Bolton sigil is pink with drops of blood and Ramsay wears  a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood as an earing. So the garnet associations we have point to blood rather than fire. Ghost could be the "blood" component to Jon's fire. 

 

On 2/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I used to think of green magic as water magic, but I no longer think the distinction holds. The Poseidon/Trident symbol itself a unifying water theme for psionic ability. The Others' ice magic is a water magic of a sort.

Hmm, GRRM is bamboozling us with this symbolism. Water as a unifying theme is an important insight. Perhaps what we're looking at with the trident is a magic based on fluids. Blood, water and sap. We think the Others use ice magic because they are creatures of ice, live in the frozen North and conjure up ice storms. But do they really  use "ice magic?" We have no evidence for that. I keep getting back to the black trees with blue leaves. It seems likely they kept the Undying alive for centuries, much as Bloodraven persists in the weirwood that sustains him and prolongs his life. The shade drink and weirwood paste (which contains sap) induce similar effects. Perhaps the power in a wood is invested in the sap itself / sap-fires. Can the life-sustaining property of a weirwood also be employed to keep the undead "alive?"

 

On 2/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Garth planted the Three Singers, so it makes sense that he would wield the psi trident.

The Three Singers are a direct clue to the nature of the original "Garth" because they point at his direct involvement with the Children of the Forest who name themselves "singers." The question also is, why did he plant three weirwood singers at Highgarden, one of the major breadbaskets of the realm? Do they have anything to do with descendants of Garth becoming "Gardeners?"

Garth was most likely a rain-god only, one who could magically induce rain but I doubt he originally had the power to infuence the fertility of the soil, which you need in order to generate vegetation as well. Garth as a rain-god is supported by the legend of Storm's End. Durran marrying the daughter of a sky and sea goddess which angered her parents so much they sent storms - rain. The antlers of Garth and the Baratheons who succeeded the Durrandons can also be interpreted as symbolic lightning as well. Trident wielding Poseidon also had the power to cause storms, amongst other catastrophes. 

This is where the CotF, the singers, come in. I think the pact they forged with the first men included augmenting his rain-making ability with their earth magic. Their magic is in song. They sing the "songs of the earth," which can include inducing plant growth.  Planting the Three Singers on Garth's grounds, perhaps actually binding "singers," CotF or humans, to the trees, ultimately enabled Garth's fertility magic to include the "gift of agriculture" and, combined with his water-magic, allowed his seeds to proliferate so easily. None of this could have been achieved without a massive sacrifice. Blood magic, water magic and the power of the trees. The reason for the Hammer of the Waters? That would have killed thousands of coastal folk and may be one of the reasons the Ironborn consider weirwoods to be "demon trees."

The thing is, the children couldn't stand against the FM. They had to reach a compromise that benefitted the FM while protecting their own folk and sacred trees. The FM multiplied much faster  than the children and had the advantage of numbers. Those numbers also had to be fed. Agreeing to aid in promoting the fertility of the land makes sense in this regard. Humans got their lands and the children kept their forests. The FM knowing the purpose of the trees would also sway them away from destroying them and even encourage them to plant a weirwood on their premises, view them as gods and providers.  

So, that's my take on the significance of the Three Singers in relation to Garth. 

  

Edited February 13, 2023 by Evolett

[Sandy Clegg]

On 2/11/2023 at 9:22 PM, Evolett said:

As to the Tullys, I feel my theory on Catelyn being the source of Bran's greenseeing powers confirmed. 

I need to go back and read the rest of this (fantastic) post but first: you realise this has huge implications for Sweetrobin if it’s true?  There have been theories about his potential greenseeing powers being the cause of his troubles …