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What's the point of the RGB color clues?


Phylum of Alexandria
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On 2/11/2023 at 9:22 PM, Evolett said:

This suggests the green stands for water rather than for vegetation (water magic).

Just spitballing some ideas that your post made me think of, before I lose track of them. There's a lot to unpack, so I just want to go back to the basic colour referencing.

Sam gets 'greensick' when travelling by boat, so this would definitely corroborate the 'green = water' aspect of your theory.

Red standing for blood / earth makes a lot of sense. This automatically made me think that blue must be air, so the three 'environments' of the world are accounted for. Land, sea, air. But that's over-simplifying maybe.

Here are some useful synonyms for the colour 'blue' provided by Chambers dictionary, if anyone cares to follow up or do some searching to find clues:

  • azure
  • royal
  • navy
  • cornflower
  • cobalt
  • indigo
  • turquoise
  • cyan
  • cerulean
  • jacinth 
  • hauyne

 

EDIT: when it comes to red hair, Chambers offers these synonyms:

  • ginger
  • carroty
  • auburn
  • chestnut
Edited by Sandy Clegg
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23 hours ago, Evolett said:

The stone wolf carving of Ghost on Longclaw has garnet eyes. For comparison, the Bolton sigil is pink with drops of blood and Ramsay wears  a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood as an earing. So the garnet associations we have point to blood rather than fire. Ghost could be the "blood" component to Jon's fire. 

I agree that blood is perhaps more of the focus with Ghost and garnets, but fire...or at least warmth...seems to be there as well. 

“Ghost appeared beside him, his warm breath steaming in the cold. In the moonlight, his red eyes glowed like pools of fire.” — Jon III ADWD

“When the direwolf raised his head, his eyes glowed red and baleful, and water streamed down from his jaws like slaver. There was something fierce and terrible about him in that instant.” —Jon IV, ACOK

And within Ghost Jon experiences wrath, hunger, desire, bloodlust. Warm-blooded animal urges and impulses.

Ramsay too has a bit of a hot nature to him, slave to his desires and impulses, which is contrasted against his father's relative iciness, at least after leeching. So the garnets may lack fire compared to rubies, but they don't lack for heat.

Even the weirwood, so often likened to blood, has at least one explicit association with fire:

"The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green." — Theon V, ACOK

23 hours ago, Evolett said:

We think the Others use ice magic because they are creatures of ice, live in the frozen North and conjure up ice storms. But do they really  use "ice magic?" We have no evidence for that.

Well, their swords are evidence of it, no? GRRM has stated that the Others can do wondrous things with ice, and the ultra-thin crystal longsword dancing with pale blue light seems to be early evidence of such. 

On 2/13/2023 at 12:42 PM, Evolett said:

So, that's my take on the significance of the Three Singers in relation to Garth. 

 

Perhaps not surprisingly, I tend to put a lot more weight into the Three Singers story, and Garth, as something important for the deeper magical plot.

Garth is an origin-of-magic figure of legend, and pretty much just code for weirwoods, weirwood-linked magic, and maybe sometimes specifically the male walkers. The story about his coming to Westeros and founding House Gardener, the first line of kings, is very similar to the story of the God-on-Earth from the Dawn Empire, and his royal progeny. If the founding god is a weirwood entity, it makes sense that both would be true for their regions, and yet similar to one another.

So this passage that Garth planted three ancient weirwoods that resemble one weirwood...to me it's the symbolism that matters most here, not so much the actual trees found at Highgarden. 

The CotF are those that sing the song of earth...but what is this "song" of earth? I believe you zeroed in on it when you thought about the shape of the Trident. It's "psi!"

The song in GRRM's A Song for Lya is never explicitly spelled out, but the best guess is the psychic hivemind harmony that Lya eventually succumbed to. In ASOIAF, the children of the forest may sing the songs of Earth...but the weirwoods started that song. So "Three Singers" to me has a much deeper resonance as sources of psi magic in the story, connected to one another and yet split apart, like a trident.

 

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4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

This automatically made me think that blue must be air, so the three 'environments' of the world are accounted for. Land, sea, air. But that's over-simplifying maybe.

Air is definitely underrepresented in terms of the elements, though I think it is there in the form of wind and even more elusive, in the form of the soul or spirits. Storm's End is significant here because it is built in a way to keep the wind out (the wind finds no purchase due to the way the stone is formed). Related to this are the magic wards that keep shadows / spirits out, unless one is a smuggler like Davos who can find a way in. But air itself is colourless. It can be felt and heard. You can smell it if it carries an odour and see the direction it's moving in if something else is mixed in but it can't really be seen. 

Red, blue and green can relate to so many things but in respect of the trident, I like the idea of the symbol as a unifying theme for magic specific to fluids. 

2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I agree that blood is perhaps more of the focus with Ghost and garnets, but fire...or at least warmth...seems to be there as well. 

“Ghost appeared beside him, his warm breath steaming in the cold. In the moonlight, his red eyes glowed like pools of fire.” — Jon III ADWD

“When the direwolf raised his head, his eyes glowed red and baleful, and water streamed down from his jaws like slaver. There was something fierce and terrible about him in that instant.” —Jon IV, ACOK

And within Ghost Jon experiences wrath, hunger, desire, bloodlust. Warm-blooded animal urges and impulses.

Ramsay too has a bit of a hot nature to him, slave to his desires and impulses, which is contrasted against his father's relative iciness, at least after leeching. So the garnets may lack fire compared to rubies, but they don't lack for heat.

Perhaps garnets and rubies are distinguished by the type or quality of heat or fire. There are different kinds of fire in the narrative - red, black dragonfire, green wildfire and so on. Mel screams red fire. She's the red priestess. Hair, clothes, eyes, all red. Ghost is white with red eyes. He's all pale where she is predominantly red. Maybe garnets relate to pale fire rather than red or any other colour. I just noted his eyes glow red and baleful in the quote above. Baleful, perhaps a play on pale? 

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2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Garth is an origin-of-magic figure of legend, and pretty much just code for weirwoods, weirwood-linked magic, and maybe sometimes specifically the male walkers. The story about his coming to Westeros and founding House Gardener, the first line of kings, is very similar to the story of the God-on-Earth from the Dawn Empire, and his royal progeny. If the founding god is a weirwood entity, it makes sense that both would be true for their regions, and yet similar to one another.

We don't see eye to eye on this but that's fine. It just does not add up for me. Garth supposedly led the FM to Westeros so he was obviously a leader. If he was so invested in weirwood magic and knew all about the potential of the trees, why did he stand by as his people did their very best to wipe them out? Legend is legend and Garth goes by three different names - Garth Greenhair, Garth Greenhand and Garth the Green. Were these different people? If so what abilities did the individual Garths possess and were those abilities enhanced or built upon to finally culminate in the last Garth remembered as the horned-god type fertility god? 

3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

So this passage that Garth planted three ancient weirwoods that resemble one weirwood...to me it's the symbolism that matters most here, not so much the actual trees found at Highgarden. 

The weirwoods are very much a symbol of the CotF, imo. They were there and sacred to them long before Garth and his people arrived. The "Three Singers" also directly reference the CotF who name themselves singers. Planting those three trees at HIghgarden and naming them singers must be more than a symbol of magic. It could indicate a concession made by Garth, to demonstrate his acceptance of the trees and use them as a signal to his people, perhaps as part of the peace pact. Three weirwoods that grow into one could mirror the psi symbol as an indication of magic, yes, but the question is, what purpose does that magic serve and why was it important to Garth? If they are a source of magic, what did he use it for? What was the value in planting those trees?

Valyrians employed their magic to breed dragons with which they conquered much of Essos. Perhaps Garth's main goal was to preserve knowledge, like the CotF who regarded the weirwoods as repositories of all their memories and histories. Or they serve some other purpose yet unrevealed. I think we agree the weirwoods are a source of magic. I would like to know what Garth used that magic for. Fertility magic targeting the earth is a likely purpose, especially since it ties into the theme of asychronous seasons. 

 

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The CotF are those that sing the song of earth...but what is this "song" of earth? I believe you zeroed in on it when you thought about the shape of the Trident. It's "psi!"

The song in GRRM's A Song for Lya is never explicitly spelled out, but the best guess is the psychic hivemind harmony that Lya eventually succumbed to. In ASOIAF, the children of the forest may sing the songs of Earth...but the weirwoods started that song. So "Three Singers" to me has a much deeper resonance as sources of psi magic in the story, connected to one another and yet split apart, like a trident.

 What is the song of the earth? Sounds like a spell to me, something fancier than "abrakadabra," designed to invoke the magic the singers require. Rather than the weirwoods starting the song, it's the CotF that use the song to address the old gods, the weirwoods. At least that's my understanding from the description given regarding the Hammer of the Waters:

Quote

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used their own young.)

The account continues with the earth shattering:

Quote

And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of water, until only a few bare rocky islands remained above the waves.
TWOIAF, The Breaking.

My interpretation of this is at odds with all who believe in a breaking moon followed by earth shattering meteors but this text suggests something different, imo. The old gods, the weirwoods, stir - they respond to the children's song, prayer and sacrifice and induce the earth to quake with immense force. Songs of the earth, sung to trees of the earth, magically producing earthquakes. 

My main focus is on the why of it. Valyrians used their magic to attain supremacy, becoming god-like in the process, this entitlement surviving the Doom and displayed by Dany currently. We haven't really figured out the purpose of weirwood magic. Greenseeing is one thing but is it really only about spying through trees, sending dreams, manipulating events and recording history? 

 

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4 hours ago, Evolett said:

We don't see eye to eye on this but that's fine. It just does not add up for me. Garth supposedly led the FM to Westeros so he was obviously a leader.

Well, the text we have is a bit more ambiguous than that. Here is the quote:

"Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god." -- TWOIAF, The Reach

So there are conflicting tales of Garth, with one of those tales being a somewhat more mundane leading of men into Westeros, and the other being a much stranger account of being the only man in Westeros for thousands of years. That second part screams "weirwood" to me. As for the first, well, I can't say for sure, but it seems to suggest different Garths. Perhaps the First Men were tied to weir-magic after all--just a rival faction. Not sure, but that would explain both the two Garths in the story and the wars between the CotF and the FM.

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

Legend is legend and Garth goes by three different names - Garth Greenhair, Garth Greenhand and Garth the Green. Were these different people?

Not necessarily, at least regarding these different names. Here's the quote:

"There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. More likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil—the one trait on which all the tales agree. "Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom," the singers tell us." -- TWOIAF, The Reach

To me, the repeated pairing of "green hands, green hair" makes me think of a green variation of a weirwood tree, which has red leaves that look like hands. Not to mention branches that look like antlers. It's clear that GRRM is drawing from green man/Cernunnos/fertility god imagery here, and my guess is that the green men of the Isle of Faces (who are described in similar terms) will in fact prove to be walking tree men, a weirwood spin both on Cernunnos, and the White Walkers.

But the text also mentions Garth dying and coming back. That fits in with real-world fertility god mythology, but it could also imply multiple generations of male walkers, each interpreted to be "Garth."

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

The weirwoods are very much a symbol of the CotF, imo. They were there and sacred to them long before Garth and his people arrived.

Long before Garth 2 arrived, perhaps. But not Garth 1! Garth 1 treated with the giants and the children of the forest long before men, and was a god. 

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

Three weirwoods that grow into one could mirror the psi symbol as an indication of magic, yes, but the question is, what purpose does that magic serve and why was it important to Garth? If they are a source of magic, what did he use it for? What was the value in planting those trees?

In my opinion, the symbolic value of the Three Singers is Doylist in nature; solely meant for us readers. I think those Highgarden weirwoods were planted there pretty much like all weirwoods are planted in-story. But obviously, we can each only speculate at this point.

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

Valyrians employed their magic to breed dragons with which they conquered much of Essos. Perhaps Garth's main goal was to preserve knowledge, like the CotF who regarded the weirwoods as repositories of all their memories and histories. Or they serve some other purpose yet unrevealed. I think we agree the weirwoods are a source of magic. I would like to know what Garth used that magic for. Fertility magic targeting the earth is a likely purpose, especially since it ties into the theme of asychronous seasons. 

Since I see "Garth" as either all weirwoods, or the male walkers (who would be psionically linked to the female queens, like the Others are to the Heart of Winter), I'm not sure if purpose for their magic factors into it, other than self-interest and self-preservation. In my conceptualization, they enable powers in other beings in order for those beings to better protect them, and to provide blood and other resources to them. It's a symbiotic relationship. But again, this only makes sense if Garth is not human. If he's human, as you say, then the question is harder to answer.

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

My interpretation of this is at odds with all who believe in a breaking moon followed by earth shattering meteors but this text suggests something different, imo. The old gods, the weirwoods, stir - they respond to the children's song, prayer and sacrifice and induce the earth to quake with immense force. Songs of the earth, sung to trees of the earth, magically producing earthquakes. 

I am a hardcore advocate of Moon Meteor Theory. So for me, "the gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth" is the weirwoods stirring in the earth, activated by blood sacrifice and either launching a seed pod or bringing in a celestial body via psionic power. The phrase "Hammer of the Waters" suggests to me a force coming down, but I fully admit that it's not clear, and open to interpretation.

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

My main focus is on the why of it. Valyrians used their magic to attain supremacy, becoming god-like in the process, this entitlement surviving the Doom and displayed by Dany currently. We haven't really figured out the purpose of weirwood magic. Greenseeing is one thing but is it really only about spying through trees, sending dreams, manipulating events and recording history? 

Well, according to the CotF, it was all about maintaining balance. Which may be a view from rose-colored lenses to some extent (or green-colored lenses?), but largely checks out. But then it became about defense against some new army of men, each one seemingly more powerful than the last. 

We don't know the real origin of dragons or any Valyrian magic. My suspicion (of course) is that weir-magic is at the root of it, but even if it's not, I think it's helpful to differentiate between magically-enhanced humans from the other magical beings. I think it all boils down to self-interest no matter what species is involved, but humans tend to take it to new levels of extremity,  supremacy, manifest destiny, disruption, destruction, etc. So even if the weirwoods and CotF want nothing more than balance and self-preservation, they still played a part in the Hammer of the Waters (likely provoked by humans), and can still enable certain humans using the weirnet to tamper with time.

I've written before how I think most if not all magic in the story is ultimately destabilizing, particularly when used by humans. It is the blessing that proves a curse, as it amplifies and enables some of our worst traits, has unpredictable consequences, or makes cataclysmic abuses possible. It thus serves as a potent critique of human nature, both at our worst and even when we think we're at our best.

In my opinion, a possible Doylist "ultimate" purpose of GRRM for having a common ancestry of magic is to dramatize the fact that all of the factionalism in the story--all of the wars, the grievances, the wrongs inflicted by perceived enemies, and even the grand cosmic narrative of ice vs fire--these all stem from humans tampering with or provoking different strains of the same magical amplifier. The problem is magic, yes, but in the end, the problem is us. To me, that is the real significance of the Trident.

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10 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

"Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god." -- TWOIAF, The Reach

@Evolett: Another, maybe less fun, way to interpret the contradiction here is simply to say that one of the characterizations is true and the other false.

Especially given the fact that Maester Yandel gives us a Luwinesque poo-pooing of Garth's supernatural qualities, and tries to emphasize that we was merely an influential man, I would lean toward the first, more mundane interpretation of Garth being false, if I had to choose. When there's a choice, always choose the supernatural option, especially when maesters other than Septon Barth are involved!

A big part of the Garth story is how humans learned to tame the earth, not just through skills learned but through magical blood passed down to them by "Garth." This likely has some seeds of truth to it, though the details may look different. And House Gardener probably did involve a line of magically-infused humans, grand figures who kick-started the Age of Heroes.

I'm thinking this involved some sort of blood-fusion with the weirwoods, though I can't speak to the details. I don't fully discount the notion of actual sexual relations with a walker type, because GRRM loves his skin-crawling content, but it could be something as simple as allowing "Garth particles" to bond with blood via some special process.

Given that he was the starting point of greatness for the First Men in Westeros, it makes sense that later legends would conceive of Garth as being human--especially once maesters started the culture down the road towards a more skeptical, naturalistic understanding of the world. 

And if Garth was just a human, yet was the source of all greatness for the First Men in Westeros, it's not that big of a leap to assume that this human leader was the one to lead them into their promised land. 

This is kind of what I had been thinking before your last comment inspired me to look at it rather differently. You had been focused on the "leading into Westeros" part, and I was focused on the "man roaming Westeros thousands of years before humans" part. I guess I never thought that the two could be reconciled.

But two Garths is certainly something to consider. And given that the First Men would eventually war with the CotF, provoked by their cutting down and burning of weirwoods, this could only mean rival Garth-factions. I'll have to contemplate this possibility a bit more!

 

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13 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

"Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god." -- TWOIAF, The Reach

So there are conflicting tales of Garth, with one of those tales being a somewhat more mundane leading of men into Westeros, and the other being a much stranger account of being the only man in Westeros for thousands of years. That second part screams "weirwood" to me. As for the first, well, I can't say for sure, but it seems to suggest different Garths. Perhaps the First Men were tied to weir-magic after all--just a rival faction. Not sure, but that would explain both the two Garths in the story and the wars between the CotF and the FM.

The text does give different in-narrative current versions  of Garth and the horned god / green man in my opinion: The Baratheon brothers. This trio is also evident in the Faith of the Seven and their division of male and female aspects of the god into trinities. Each member of the trinity has a different function. With the Faith, it's evident George has drawn on the evolution of the horned god into different aspects over time as developed by Gerald Gardner who founded the pagan tradition of Gardnerian Wicca. This is where a lot of these ideas in the books come from. 

Barring the nebulous ancient legends, Storm's End major association with storms and rain + it being the seat of the horned Baratheons, is one of the main reasons I think the original Garth was mainly a rain-god rather than one who promoted fertility as a whole. It suggests further aspects of fertility ensued as additions to complete the picture we see in the final Garth. Storm's End supplies the rain, the water aspect for all three brothers. It's the basis for everything else. But Stannis symbolically loses even that when Robert declares him Lord of Dragonstone. Another tit-bit of evidence for this separation of weather and fertility of the earth is provided by House Merryweather. Lord Merryweather is married to Taena of Myr, a woman with very earthy imagery. Their seat is Longtable, their sigil a cornucopia spilling fruit and vegetables. The union of good weather and earth produces a bounty of food.  

Robert Baratheon is close to Garth and the horned lord archetype. He's virile and fruitful in terms of human fecundity, a warrior / hunter and leader of the people but he's not connected to vegetation himself, neither is Cersei, his "goddess." Jon Arryn, his Hand, was the symbolic "green vegetational man" at his side - from the fertile Vale of Arryn. 

In the lore, there is a difference between the Green Man god of vegetation itself and the Horned Lord. From what I gather after reading James Frazer's "The Golden Bough," the horned god /high priest /king-priest / high king archetype's primary function was to fertilize the mother earth goddess, represented by a woman / priestess of the tribe. The earth responds to this by bringing forth vegetation. In some traditions, the green man of vegetation is the actual vegetational deity. GRRM is mixing all lore but it appears likely he's also drawn on this "division of labour" or magical ability for that matter. Why his horned-god type should take the form of a merman is a good question and like you I suspect these so called green people where not human, but possibly represent the unnamed third elder race, but that's another story. Back to the Baratheons.

We have Robert as the strong warrior-hunter type, virile kid-producing lord, minus vegetation.

Then there's Renly who does have very green imagery connected to the forest but is not a "fertility god" in terms of argriculture in his own right. He does not fullfil the warrior aspect either, or is killed before he can do so. He buys into fertility by marrying into Highgarden. Margaery and Loras, Knight of Flowers are his link to this aspect of the god. That said, the idea that he may prefer men to women negates what is expected of a horned god who should be fertilizing the mother goddess so that plant life may flourish. Interestingly, from Cressen, we learn Renly liked to play at being a dragon, a king and a rain-god. 

Stannis lost his claim to the title of Storm Lord / Rain Lord when Robert assigned Dragonstone to him. He's dark and brooding, condones sacrificing people to the red god. There's no fertile imagery surrounding him. He has only one girl child disfigured by greyscale - she's stoney. He and his bannermen have been twice subject to starvation. He's a warrior, yes, but that's all he fullfils as horned lords go. He's not loved and unlike his brothers, has great problems rallying people to his cause. He represents the dark aspect of Garth. Stannis is also connected to the sea however. He can muster a fleet and was Master of Ships. I see signs of the Grey King here who is another aspect of Garth, but one focussed on the bounty of the sea, rather than the land. Stannis also has a "horned lord" in his household, Patchface, who wears a faux crown of antlers and bells and he's the stoney daughter's best friend, a broken horned god figure. He does not scream fertility either. Just on the surface, the entire combination suggests the ancient Garth figure once lost most of his power, becoming a useless tragic "fool." And perhaps this is the missing detail.

I think the horned lord must be restored to his original intended form and I will add that the ancient "Garth" we are presented with does not comply with this perfection either. Garth fullfiled most roles except one. He was not monogamous. The male trinity of the Faith is the clue here. The Father who bears children with the Mother alone, has authority and lays down the law. The Smith who stands in for all who provide for the people, this includes farming, the agricultural aspect. The Warrior who defends the realm and the people.

If there is one person I see as perfect in all these aspects, it's Ned Stark. We note, he is also a "brother" to Robert Baratheon. Ned has one wife and does not philander. He has five children to prove his virility. He is a leader in the North with authority to dispense the law. He's a proven hunter and warrior in his own right. He respects and looks after his people to the extent of inviting them to the Winter Town during the cold period. His glass gardens provide extra food during the cold months as well. He does not sacrifice people - instead, the old men of the North willingly sacrifice themselves during harsh winters so that others might live.  

I've made no mention of weirwoods here because I wanted to illustrate the above without bringing them into the picture. I don't doubt the original Garth had a connection to sacred trees before coming to Westeros. The black trees in Qarth (Garth) suggest there was such a connection. But what are the Qarthi also noted for? For spontaneous weeping (water on call, at  will / rain imagery) and Xaro says they have "water in their veins."

This is getting very long so I'll  try to sum up what I suspect in relation to the wonky seasons. I think the ancients in Essos originally practiced fertility rites involving a wedding between a classic "horned lord" who had nothing to do with the trees and female "mother goddess" figures possessed of fertility magic. I suspect they significantly exploited the magic of women, abusing and enslaving them to ensure  maximum productivity (and possibly a lengthening of the seasons). Things reached a tipping point somewhere along the line so that this practice was no longer viable. The various Essosi cultures, especially those beyond the bones, also suggest women fought back to reclaim their autonomy. The power of sacred trees was then discovered as an alternative to the fertilitiy magic of the women, henceforth used to power the fertility machine with the help of so called green horned lords (note - greenseers are "wed" to the trees) but this too was abused, resulting in the corruption of the trees, possibly leading to severe drought and the dessication of many parts of Essos. Garth's travels to Westeros and  treating with the CotF would represent a fresh attempt to check out the possibilities on Westeros, a haven for the magical trees and a place to kick start the next round of magically induced fertility. 

All this does not really come to the fore in the story, which makes my interpretation sound like fan fiction.
My take on it might not be exactly right but I think the broad strokes fit. Being tied to a weirwood is an abomination really and the weirwood connection to fertility may not feel correct. Yet there are a few signs in the story, such as the Green Men (who are horned fertility gods) that were set up as guardians on the Isle of Faces. And there's Bran who is "wed" to a weirwood. His name is also the name of a cereal, he fed crows corn, his wolf's name is Summer and ETA: he thinks of himself as "Prince of the Green."

 

ETA: Regarding Stannis - he recovers the "rain and forest green" by naming Davos Lord of the Rainwood. With Mel he recovers the fire, also related to the passion and love of life displayed by Robert and Renly (the peach). 

Edited by Evolett
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I stumbled across this today and it reminded me of this thread, so here it is.  Other that posting it, I don't really have any comments, but think it would fit in with your theme.    hopefully
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

 

 

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The recurring red, blue and green motif is simply a reflection of a main theme using color symbolism.

We are meant to think of the Trident the most prominent version of this, as so much of the story takes place there like the Ruby Ford or the Red Wedding.  A trident has three heads, just as the dragon has three heads. One red, one blue, and one green, symbolically at least.

In ASoIaF the dragon is the ultimate symbol of power. The head is the part that controls the dragon, and as such the person who controls the power is the king or queen. Therefore the head of the dragon is a king or queen. So we are looking for three monarchs, one red, one blue and one green.

Tridents and dragons are not the only thing with three heads. If we cross to Arya in Braavos we encounter a temple to the god Trios and find another piece of the puzzle.

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Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.

The first head, red, devours the dying and the reborn emerge from the third head, which is green. This makes total sense. Red can symbolize danger, or fire and blood. Green is the color of spring and rebirth. We don't know what the middle head's supposed to do but we know it's blue, and blue often symbolizes tranquility and in this series ice. This makes further sense because we are told:

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Fire consumes, but cold preserves.

So the first head, red, devours the dying. It is Westeros that is dying, bled by the game of thrones and gnawed by the rat-faced kings. When Dany comes to claim her throne, she will be bringing fire and blood. Fire consumes or devours. There are other claimants to this red head, such as Stannis and Aegon, but Dany's the one with dragons so I fully expect her to come out on top.

The second head is the blue head. Ice. This is Jon Snow, soon to be the King of Winter. The blue eyed king with a red sword who cast no shadow. The cold preserves, brings tranquility. His sword is red because it is for the first head, the red head. The parallels to the Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa story need no explanation.

But the King of Winter is exactly that, a king of winter. Once the spring returns his reign will end, and he will make way for the third head of the dragon, the green one, the queen of Spring. I believe this will be Sansa, and that she is the blue flower, growing from a chink in the wall of ice and filling the air with sweetness.

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I'm a little late to the party, and this is kind of basic, but I don't think I saw it quoted in the thread...

A large ragged sheepskin was tossed across the papers. Arya had started to roll it up when the colors caught her eye: the blue of lakes and rivers, the red dots where castles and cities could be found, the green of woods. She spread it out instead. THE LANDS OF THE TRIDENT, said the ornate script beneath the map. The drawing showed everything from the Neck to the Blackwater Rush.

Arya gives us a nice analogy here, with the map of the lands of the Trident, what amounts to the center of Westeros, being painted in the red, blue and green ink, on the inside of a sheepskin, extending from the "Neck" to the "Blackwater Rush".

The lands of the Trident, in all their colors, is one animal, from neck to ass!

The individual colors may represent aspects of the land, or of life, but it takes all the colors to make the whole.

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."
"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

A large ragged sheepskin was tossed across the papers. Arya had started to roll it up when the colors caught her eye: the blue of lakes and rivers, the red dots where castles and cities could be found, the green of woods. She spread it out instead. THE LANDS OF THE TRIDENT, said the ornate script beneath the map. The drawing showed everything from the Neck to the Blackwater Rush.

Arya gives us a nice analogy here, with the map of the lands of the Trident, what amounts to the center of Westeros, being painted in the red, blue and green ink, on the inside of a sheepskin, extending from the "Neck" to the "Blackwater Rush".

The lands of the Trident, in all their colors, is one animal, from neck to ass!

That might settle the matter, though it's the depiction we expect on a map, any map. We still have many instances where green and green vegetation is associated with the sea or with water; the Dothraki Sea, a grass sea, the Manderly sigil with the merman's green attributes, the Jade Sea, the Haunted Forest beyond the Wall which Jon compares to a storm-tossed deep green sea, to mention a few.  Even the green Spring (the season) and spring (the water) is a combination of the two.  Perhaps this doubling up of  vegetation and the sea/water has to do with two different types of magic that can be ascribed to green. Fertility magic and greenseeing (wordplay - see / sea)?

The sheepskin on which the Riverlands are drawn may be a reference to the region as a sacrificial location. This is where the war rages in ernest with so much bloodshed all round. In terms of the backstory and the seasons, the Red Wedding strikes me as a massive sacrifice designed to stave off winter. The God's Eye is here too, a grove of many weirwoods which may require sacrifices from time to time. I actually wonder whether Howland Reed was really a friend to Eddard Stark. 

As @Phylum of Alexandria pointed out earlier, the Trident is a unifying symbol for the three colours and since these are bodies of water, my guess is the magic represented here is related to fluids. Blood, water and the sap of the trees. A similar concept may apply to the other RGB mentions. The cyvasse terrain colors may represent magic through which physical forces can be applied to the earth. Magic that causes mountains to explode (volcanos), the earth to shake and waters to rise (the so called "hammers"). The Tully "muppets" that are puppets could represent magic related to the supernatural control of the living and undead. The Massey spirals might relate to seasonal cycles or time and the magic associated with disrupting these. 

 

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Tridents and dragons are not the only thing with three heads. If we cross to Arya in Braavos we encounter a temple to the god Trios and find another piece of the puzzle.

I can see the turrets of Trios symbolizing the three dragon heads, though colors are not specified here. 

 

There's one more RGB trio we have not addressed specifically as a trio here: the jewels - ruby, emerald and sapphire. I hadn't considered them in terms of a trio originally because they are amongst a number of different jewels mentioned. These however stand out in the story. I think these gems are specific to fire magic and in some cases to soul magic, i.e. the magic of life-force or life-fires) and do not necessarily stand alone but must be combined with another medium of magic, such as blood.

These gems are also heavily associated with eyes. I think the author is drawing on the eyes as windows to the soul here. Can't say I've figured it out but what we know of Mel's magic supports the idea. 

The Ruby: is associated with blood and fire. We get our first hint at Mel's blood and fire magic when she employs leeches to invoke a death curse. Leeches drain the blood from the sacrificial victim and are later thrown into the fire as the curse is pronounced.   

Waking dragons from stone involves using king's blood / burning the human sacrifice. Dany waking dragons from stone eggs is based on a similar principle. 

The ruby is involved in glamours where the shade of one person is drawn out of something he or she possessed and "draped" over another to cause an illusion. Her rubies also allow her to bind someone to her, body and soul (these are all aspects of shadowbinding / soul-binding).

Emeralds: Cersei is the character most associated with emeralds. It's not clear what kind of magic might be represented here but wildfire is also linked to jade as well as to emeralds and to Cersei, so perhaps there is something there. Wildfire is a product of the magic used by the Alchemists' Guild. It's a green liquid stored in clay pots shaped like fruit. When it burns it's all consuming, will even burn on water. Perhaps the symbolism here is fertility magic, the life force of vegetation gone wild, corrupted. Cersei herself is a "perilous fruit" that threatens to destroy everything around her.

Emeralds are most often paired with gold. Cersei consistently wears emeralds which compliment her eyes and golden hair. The green-eyed Lannisters are "golden" all round. Gold and green also charactarize the Tyrells. Interestingly, though they are represented by golden rose, the rose on Joffery's chalice is crafted from emeralds. Then there is Renly:

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Renly's crown of soft gold depicts a ring of roses. On its front is a stag's head made of dark green jade, with golden eyes and antlers

Golden roses with a jade green stag for Renly. So far Renly is the only one with a connection to "soul magic." He "rises from death" as his brother Garlan. 

 

Sapphires: these are very interesting because they represent the eyes of the Others and wights and I very much associate them with soul magic and the means by which the Others bind the dead to their service. I think the process is very similar to Mel's ruby-binding magic. 

There is also Brienne from the Sapphire Isle of Tarth, worth a bag of sapphires. I would relate this to Brienne's life force and point to the Undying feeding on Dany's life force as a parallel. Brienne being worth a bag of sapphires suggests her life force is equal to many times that which can be generated through the magic of sapphires.  

Dany's dragon eggs are also compared to jewels. Though their colours do not entirely match the RGB trio, they are also part of the soul-magic motif:

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Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. 

I look forward to more ideas on "gem magic."

 

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46 minutes ago, Evolett said:

That might settle the matter, though it's the depiction we expect on a map, any map. We still have many instances where green and green vegetation is associated with the sea or with water; the Dothraki Sea, a grass sea, the Manderly sigil with the merman's green attributes, the Jade Sea, the Haunted Forest beyond the Wall which Jon compares to a storm-tossed deep green sea, to mention a few.  Even the green Spring (the season) and spring (the water) is a combination of the two.  Perhaps this doubling up of  vegetation and the sea/water has to do with two different types of magic that can be ascribed to green. Fertility magic and greenseeing (wordplay - see / sea)?

If I'm going to extrapolate on the idea above, I would say that the Lands of the Trident, and their colors, represent the world of mankind. Red civilization, green wilderness, and blue water. I think we see this trio repeated many times together.

It was nice under the trees. Bran kept Dancer to a walk, holding the reins lightly and looking all around him as they went. He knew this wood, but he had been so long confined to Winterfell that he felt as though he were seeing it for the first time. The smells filled his nostrils; the sharp fresh tang of pine needles, the earthy odor of wet rotting leaves, the hints of animal musk and distant cooking fires.

There are many different ways and proportions to mix these things, but I think the key is that man requires all of them, and any one in the extreme or lacking any one of them completely means death.

No life was certain. Catelyn was content to wait, to listen to the whispers in the woods and the faint music of the brook, to feel the warm wind in her hair.

I'm sure there are many good quotes that show individual examples, here are a few I like:

"All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die."

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them

"It's been a bad year for wolves," volunteered a sallow man in a travel-stained green cloak. "Around the Gods Eye, the packs have grown bolder'n anyone can remember. Sheep, cows, dogs, makes no matter, they kill as they like, and they got no fear of men. It's worth your life to go into those woods by night."

One might even make the case that all magic in ASoIaF comes from one of these extremes and as such is inimical to the survival of mankind.

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54 minutes ago, Evolett said:

The sheepskin on which the Riverlands are drawn may be a reference to the region as a sacrificial location.

This may be a stretch, but I would suggest that a sheepskin can indicate a secret identity or disguise.

Arya reentered Kingspyre the same way she had left it, and stole up the winding steps listening for footfalls. In her cell, she stripped to the skin and dressed herself carefully, in two layers of smallclothes, warm stockings, and her cleanest tunic. It was Lord Bolton's livery. On the breast was sewn his sigil, the flayed man of the Dreadfort. She tied her shoes, threw a wool cloak over her skinny shoulders, and knotted it under her throat. Quiet as a shadow, she moved back down the stairs. Outside the lord's solar she paused to listen at the door, easing it open slowly when she heard only silence.
The sheepskin map was on the table, beside the remains of Lord Bolton's supper. She rolled it up tight and thrust it through her belt. He'd left his dagger on the table as well, so she took that too, just in case Gendry lost his courage.

Arya here is obviously in disguise, but my favorite example is Jon's sheepskin cloak during his time with the Wildlings, making him a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Jon wheeled and followed Tormund back toward the head of the column, his new cloak hanging heavy from his shoulders. It was made of unwashed sheepskins, worn fleece side in, as the wildlings suggested. It kept the snow off well enough, and at night it was good and warm, but he kept his black cloak as well, folded up beneath his saddle.

But, I think there are some other good examples too.

She did not know where she was. The air was cold and heavy, and smelled of earth and worms and mold. She was lying on a pallet beneath a mound of sheepskins, with rock above her head and roots poking through the walls. The only light came from a tallow candle, smoking in a pool of melted wax.
She pushed aside the sheepskins. Someone had stripped her of her clothes and armor, she saw. She was clad in a brown woolen shift, thin but freshly washed.

Brienne looks to her captors to be an agent of the Lannisters, but that is hardly the whole truth.

On the wall hung a sheepskin with a map of the north painted across it in faded colors. Beneath the map sat Wyman Manderly, the colossal Lord of White Harbor.

Wyman is pretending to be a committed ally of the Lannisters and Boltons, but the North remembers.

The Freefolk children given as hostages to Jon.

Two stewards counted the boys as they went by, noting each name on long sheepskin scrolls. A third collected their valuables for the toll and wrote that down as well. The boys were going to a place that none had ever been before, to serve an order that had been the enemy of their kith and kin for thousands of years, yet Jon saw no tears, heard no wailing mothers. These are winter's people, he reminded himself. Tears freeze upon your cheeks where they come from. Not a single hostage balked or tried to slink away when his turn came to enter that gloomy tunnel.

Only a few paragraphs later:

Two of the boys were girls in disguise.

And then of course there are some examples which makes one wonder...

Instead they struck off toward the northwest, following the shore of the Bay of Crabs on a crooked track so small that it did not appear on either of Ser Hyle's precious sheepskin maps.

Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. Even in sleep she wore ringmail under her furs, boiled leather under that, and an old sheepskin under the leather, turned inside out for warmth. All those layers made her look almost as wide as she was tall. And ferocious. Sometimes it was hard for Asha Greyjoy to remember that she and the She-Bear were almost of an age.

"In the dark the dead are dancing." Patchface shuffled his feet in a grotesque dance step. "I know, I know, oh oh oh." At Eastwatch someone had sewn him a motley cloak of beaver pelts, sheepskins, and rabbit fur. His hat sported antlers hung with bells and long brown flaps of squirrel fur that hung down over his ears. Every step he took set him to ringing.

Brown Ben's note was the last. That one had been inscribed upon a sheepskin scroll. 

And a final two part example that I find particularly interesting:

Craster's sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold.

His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur-lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind. 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

I can see the turrets of Trios symbolizing the three dragon heads, though colors are not specified here. 

Trios and the Trident both have three heads and hold clues towards understanding the mystery of the Three-headed dragon. The colors come from the Trident. The purpose of two of the heads we get from Trios. These are separate clues that need to be put together. They fit well given that the color of the Trident's fork is appropriate to the purpose of the equivalent head, for example the third fork is green and the third head is concerned with rebirth, which brings to mind spring, which is symbolized by the color green. The first fork is red and the first head devours, just as fire devours, and fire is symbolized by the color red.

So by following this process we can anticipate that the purpose of the middle head, which we are not told, will be something that is symbolized by the color blue, for example bringing peace and tranquility.

Leaving the colors and the Trident aside, if you believe the three heads of the dragon are three people, such as dragon riders or whatever, and you accept that Trios symbolizes the tree heads of the dragon, then it makes sense that the first of these three people will devour what is dying and the reborn will emerge from the third person. Otherwise Trios is similar to the three headed dragon as they both have three heads, but nothing is really being symbolized. The same with the Trident, it has three heads but the symbolism lies in the colors. We already know the dragon has three heads. The question is what does the Trident and Trios, or any other three headed symbolism in the series, tell us about each head of the dragon?

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On 2/15/2023 at 9:39 AM, Evolett said:

Barring the nebulous ancient legends, Storm's End major association with storms and rain + it being the seat of the horned Baratheons, is one of the main reasons I think the original Garth was mainly a rain-god rather than one who promoted fertility as a whole. It suggests further aspects of fertility ensued as additions to complete the picture we see in the final Garth.

I'm definitely with you on the Baratheon brothers symbolizing multiple Garths. I guess I'll have to get more familiar with Gardner's specific writings. 

I'm wondering how much GRRM was thinking of an even older story: the Ba'al Cycle.

  • The story starts with high god El granting rule to his son, Yam-Nahar, god of the seas and rivers.
  • Yam is cruel to other gods, so the mother goddess Asherah offers herself to him to change his ways.
  • Ba'al, god of storms and vegetation, is outraged, and challenges Yam for his misdeeds.
  • Ba'al is aided by Kothar wa-Khasis, who creates magical weapons for Ba'al to kill the god of the seas.
  • Ba'al is later killed by Mot, the god of death. The fertility/huntress goddess Anath (both warrior and maiden) kills Mot in her anger over Ba'al's death.
  • Both Ba'al and Mot come back to life and fight once more, but eventually Mot submits to Ba'al, and vegetation returns to the land.

I doubt he's trying to capture the story faithfully, but there do seem to be a lot of elements there. Not only does GRRM pepper his story with a lot of Bael/Abel names, the battles of sea god against storm god is in the deep legends.

Within Ironborn history (which has the Grey King conquering his Ba'al-like Good Brother), there is a "Dagon" Greyjoy. Obviously this could be a reference to Lovecraft, but even that work explicitly mentions the Philistine god, who happened to be the father of Ba'al.

My guess is that GRRM's take will be a rather dramatic subversion of such a seminal mythic story, but, just as with Lovecraft, it's good to know the starting references before thinking about where he may take them in his own work.

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On 2/5/2023 at 4:51 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

For reasons still unclear, GRRM has peppered in his story relating to Red-Green-Blue color trios.

The photoreceptor cells in the eyes each absorbs light according to its spectral sensitivity, which is determined by the photo receptor proteins expressed in the cell. Humans have three classes of cones that absorb different wavelengths of light. 
 

Visible light is usually defined as having wave lengths in the range of  400–700 nanometers, corresponding to frequencies of 750–420 terahertz, between the infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths. Red, Blue and Green are the wavelengths perceived by the human eye.

People who are colorblind, such as albinos, will have some differences.

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3 hours ago, Nadden said:

The photoreceptor cells in the eyes each absorbs light according to its spectral sensitivity, which is determined by the photo receptor proteins expressed in the cell. Humans have three classes of cones that absorb different wavelengths of light. 
 

Visible light is usually defined as having wave lengths in the range of  400–700 nanometers, corresponding to frequencies of 750–420 terahertz, between the infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths. Red, Blue and Green are the wavelengths perceived by the human eye.

People who are colorblind, such as albinos, will have some differences.

I thought about that too, and it's why I cheekily named my idea the "Trichromatic Theory of Magic."

However, I'm not sure if GRRM is going there with the RGB color trio. While he has incorporated the metaphor of light broken into different colors in the story, it tends to be associated with the rainbow colors of the Seven--not with RGB blood magic.

Maybe the Seven stuff is a clue that points to a way to interpret the tripart bloodlines, but without more evidence pointing that way, I am not so inclined to assume as much.

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Upfront disclaimer:  I feel very silly posting here as this is ancient and I barely remember it.  I have a friend who was very into the RGB thing.  It included the trident, but was very specific to the colors with regard to gemstones.  Blue = sapphires = lies     Red = rubies = hidden identity    Green = emeralds = i don't remember 

The idea went something along the lines of the types of wine being mentioned in a scene i.e. if Arbor Gold comes up be aware a lie is coming.   This goes back a long time as was used as a sort of decoding device.    

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 3/4/2023 at 8:26 PM, Curled Finger said:

Upfront disclaimer:  I feel very silly posting here as this is ancient and I barely remember it.  I have a friend who was very into the RGB thing.  It included the trident, but was very specific to the colors with regard to gemstones.  Blue = sapphires = lies     Red = rubies = hidden identity    Green = emeralds = i don't remember 

The idea went something along the lines of the types of wine being mentioned in a scene i.e. if Arbor Gold comes up be aware a lie is coming.   This goes back a long time as was used as a sort of decoding device.    

 

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All these great posts have shaken up my thinking, but in the back of my mind, I'm still holding on to the idea of red, blue, green being hell, heaven and earth, and probably hot, cold and temperate as well. Whatever, the sheepskin map would have to fit in somehow, and also I think the Dothraki sea, which is a mass of green under a blue sky, inhabited by copper-skinned people led by a sun king on a red horse.

The other thing that pops out to me are the women associated with the colours - Melisandre the lovely succubus, the saintly Brienne, and Cersei, queen of the long summer. Though it seems Cersei's fire has been quenched, and it's left to the frail and ancient Galazza Galare to represent green.

The colour green is in retreat everywhere, starting with the end of the supply of limes at the Wall. Renly died, and afterwards Catelyn saw no green in the many colours of his army. Cersei and Jaime started out all in green, now monochrome. One Green Grace dead. The Dothraki sea still green, but changing: Though she walked through a green kingdom, it was not the deep rich green of summer. Even here autumn made its presence felt, and winter would not be far behind. The grass was paler than she remembered, a wan and sickly green on the verge of going yellow. After that would come brown. The grass was dying.

Sea-green, grey-green is still there, but that's not the same I don't think.

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