BigFatCoward Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, mormont said: BFC, you can usually think a little beyond the surface on these things. Just because two things look the same doesn't mean they are the same. Awards are tricky. The winner is often the best of the nominees (not always) but getting nominated is tough and people face lots of obstacles in that regard that are not necessarily to do with the quality of their performance. As a rule, women and minorities tend to face more of those obstacles. The criticism of the Brits was exactly this. A man was always going to win Best Artist at the Brits, because all the nominees were men. In the WhatsOnStage awards, all the shortlists were mixed. These two things are not the same. While I accept there are differences, it's still people picking who they liked best whether on a public vote or panel. The panel of the brits would have had to be hyper sensitive to the coming criticism when they realised that the finalists were all men, and they felt strong enough about it to go ahead anyway (I can't comment on whether they made the correct choice or not as i'm not really down with current music). I haven't heard much criticism of the actual merits of the artists included or excluded (whereas there has been a lot of criticism of the artistic merits of Harry Styles over Beyonce at the Grammys for example). So it feels more like 'some women should be included because'. also @Heartofice please don't agree with me, its very difficult for others to judge my point on its merits when you are on my side. Edited February 13 by BigFatCoward Heartofice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Humorist Blanche Gardin had an absolutely ferocious take on awards in 2018 when tasked with handing one out. - Well let's take a look at the nominees. We have a black guy, an Arab, a Reunionese, a woman (me), and a normal 40-year old white guy. You can bet you'll stay in your seat tonight, Jérôme. Unless you're gay, of course. Then she opened the enveloppe and won, becoming the first woman to win the national prize for humor. Her first comments were : - Ah, I knew it. That's why I wanted to hand it out, didn't want to bother a whole row of people while pretending to cry. Anyway, I really knew it. I'm the only woman nominated the year of the Weinstein scandal. Story of my life, the year I win an award, it's worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said: The panel of the brits would have had to be hyper sensitive to the coming criticism when they realised that the finalists were all men, and they felt strong enough about it to go ahead anyway This seems to be based on some assumptions about how the shortlist is drawn up, which I can't comment on because I don't know (do you?): and then some further assumptions, based on the first set of assumptions, about whether the people responsible saw a problem, and then more assumptions based on that about why they went ahead anyway. 1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said: So it feels more like 'some women should be included because'. Not my point in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 22 minutes ago, mormont said: Not my point in any way. In general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 My opinion as a Woman. the best artist has been a non gendered award for too short a time to draw any conclusions. Yes the all male finalists should raise an eyebrow or two and may be an indication of bias or it could be a natural result of statistics. Keep an eye on it and be aware. lets see what happens in future years. The award was changed to non-gendered to be more inclusive It would be a shame to throw that out at the first sign of a result that doesn't feel right based on just one years results. Maithanet and ants 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 (edited) On 2/13/2023 at 4:20 AM, Heartofice said: But the pAtR1aRChy?! Ah Invoke transphobes who call themselves feminist when trying to intellectualize beating up on trans people, and invoke trans dignity when beating up on people in drag. @Heartoficesigh I can’t help you understand something unless you express what basic concept confuses you. I’m sorry On 2/13/2023 at 4:12 AM, mormont said: As a rule, women and minorities tend to face more of those obstacles. Ehh there’s nuance. Edited February 14 by Varysblackfyre321 ants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A True Kaniggit Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) Bloody Chavs. (I learned a new word today) Edit: Thank Harry Potter Legacy. Edited February 14 by A True Kaniggit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 On 2/13/2023 at 7:12 AM, mormont said: BFC, you can usually think a little beyond the surface on these things. Just because two things look the same doesn't mean they are the same. Awards are tricky. The winner is often the best of the nominees (not always) but getting nominated is tough and people face lots of obstacles in that regard that are not necessarily to do with the quality of their performance. As a rule, women and minorities tend to face more of those obstacles. The criticism of the Brits was exactly this. A man was always going to win Best Artist at the Brits, because all the nominees were men. In the WhatsOnStage awards, all the shortlists were mixed. These two things are not the same. As further enlightment as to why the bolded is so -- and that it indeed can be linked to hatred of women: How the Oscars and Grammys Thrive on the Lie of Meritocracy Despite all the markers of excellence, contenders like Danielle Deadwyler, Viola Davis and Beyoncé weren’t recognized for the highest honors. Niche awards don’t suffice https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/11/movies/oscars-grammys-black-women.html Quote I didn’t see it coming, but maybe I should have. That refrain has been popping into my head repeatedly since learning that neither Viola Davis (“The Woman King”) nor Danielle Deadwyler (“Till”) was nominated for the best actress Oscar and that Andrea Riseborough and Ana de Armas had emerged as this year’s spoilers. It came to mind again on Sunday night when the Grammys awarded Harry Styles’s “Harry’s House” album of the year, not Beyoncé’s “Renaissance.” Though she made history that night as the most Grammy-winning artist of all time, this was Beyoncé’s fourth shutout from the industry’s most coveted category and another stark reminder that the last Black woman to take home that award was Lauryn Hill — 24 years ago. This time the message was loud and clear: Beyoncé, one of the most prolific and transformative artists of the 21st century, can win only in niche categories. Her music — a continually evolving and genre-defying sound — still can’t be seen as the standard-bearer for the universal. The music and movie industries differ in many ways, but their prizes are similarly determined by the predominantly older white male members of the movie and recording academies. Though both organizations have made concerted efforts in recent years to diversify their voting bodies in terms of age, race and gender, Black women artists, despite their ingenuity, influence and, in Beyoncé’s case, unparalleled innovation, continue to be denied their highest honors. This trend is no indication of the quality of their work but rather a reflection of something else: the false myth of meritocracy upon which these institutions, their ceremonies and their gatekeepers thrive. .... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ‘Rapid rise’ in Andrew Tate-related cases referred to Prevent by schools Counter-extremism workers dealing with incidents including verbal harassment of female teachers and other pupils https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/12/rapid-rise-in-andrew-tate-related-cases-referred-to-prevent-by-schools ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Parents, talk to your sons about Andrew Tate – we teachers can’t take him on alone https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/14/parents-sons-andrew-tate-teachers-toxic-influencers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 12 minutes ago, Zorral said: As further enlightment as to why the bolded is so -- and that it indeed can be linked to hatred of women: How the Oscars and Grammys Thrive on the Lie of Meritocracy Despite all the markers of excellence, contenders like Danielle Deadwyler, Viola Davis and Beyoncé weren’t recognized for the highest honors. Niche awards don’t suffice https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/11/movies/oscars-grammys-black-women.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ‘Rapid rise’ in Andrew Tate-related cases referred to Prevent by schools Counter-extremism workers dealing with incidents including verbal harassment of female teachers and other pupils https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/feb/12/rapid-rise-in-andrew-tate-related-cases-referred-to-prevent-by-schools ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Parents, talk to your sons about Andrew Tate – we teachers can’t take him on alone https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/14/parents-sons-andrew-tate-teachers-toxic-influencers Thanks for this Zorral, I absolutely agree that when women don't win awards its because 'Andrew Tate' . You have highlighted a very valuable point yet again. So incisive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 54 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Thanks for this Zorral, I absolutely agree that when women don't win awards its because 'Andrew Tate' . You have highlighted a very valuable point yet again. So incisive. Why bring attention to your disregard for misogyny? Do you think you're clowning on Zorral when you tell on yourself like this? (again and again..) Fragile Bird, Prince of the North and Raja 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Week said: Why bring attention to your disregard for misogyny? Do you think you're clowning on Zorral when you tell on yourself like this? (again and again..) Don’t know what you are talking about. I 100% agree that the only reason a woman doesn’t win an award is due to all of our internalised misogyny, so highly engrained due to our structural patriarchy that we don’t even recognise true excellence like.. er.. Woman King. I only hope Andrew Tate goes to jail soon so that oppressed victims like Adele and Beyoncé can finally get some recognition in this world, instead of those vile misogynistic patriarchal stooges like .. Harry Styles. Edited February 14 by Heartofice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 44 minutes ago, Heartofice said: I 100% agree that the only reason a woman doesn’t win an award is due to all of our internalised misogyny, so highly engrained due to our structural patriarchy that we don’t even recognise true excellence like.. er.. Woman King. I only hope Andrew Tate goes to jail soon so that oppressed victims like Adele and Beyoncé can finally get some recognition in this world, instead of those vile misogynistic patriarchal stooges like .. Harry Styles. Intentional bad faith or poor reading comprehension? Bit of both? Nah, just the former. Raja and Prince of the North 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Week said: Intentional bad faith or poor reading comprehension? Bit of both? Nah, just the former. No, I’m totally in agreement with Zorral here, it’s hatred of women isn’t it! Those bloody women hating men!! Damn them!! Anyway this has been a cause I have been championing for decades, ever since Westlife won best pop act in 2002, when everyone knew the Cheeky girls were the deserved winners! ‘Touch my bum, this is love’ will go down in history as a classic, who even remembers Westlife!!? We all knew it was not only misogyny directed at two lovely young ladies, but racism as well! Ever since then I’ve worked hard to fight inequality in the music industry, in fact I’m setting up a gofundme, to donate to Beyoncé. With our help we can buy her a new mansion to help dull the pain of Harry Styles sexist face. Edited February 14 by Heartofice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I'm pretty sure that the press are over egging the pudding somewhat on how much influence Andrew Tate has in schools with young lads. It's literally my job to hear about that shit, not a single issue raised by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 21 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: I'm pretty sure that the press are over egging the pudding somewhat on how much influence Andrew Tate has in schools with young lads. It's literally my job to hear about that shit, not a single issue raised by anyone. Seems like much of the concern is the popularity of his feed and schtick along with the lack of awareness by parents. Which would be a potential explanation for why you might not have heard anything. I hope it's the case that the concern is overblown (aside from the concern about the crimes he allegedly committed basically out in the open). Edited February 14 by Week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said: not a single issue raised by anyone. Is the reporting in the guardian article then completely wrong then? Quote Counter-extremism workers have warned of a rapid rise in the number of cases being referred to them by schools concerned about the influence of the self-styled misogynist influencer Andrew Tate. As an aside, Andrew Tate or not, he is just another dude in the line of misogynist men. Masculinity has significant issues that us men just are not dealing with collectively, but that is a whole other conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 (edited) 8 hours ago, Week said: Intentional bad faith or poor reading comprehension? Bit of both? Nah, just the former. Sometimes it’s more complimentary to assume the former of some interlocutors. 8 hours ago, Heartofice said: Harry Styles Hey remember when the right threw a bitch fit when Styles wore a dress? What’d you think of that my friend? Edited February 15 by Varysblackfyre321 Used drag wrongly* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Sometimes it’s more complimentary to assume the former of some interlocutors. Hey remember when the right through a bitch fit when Styles wore a dress? What’d you think of that my friend? “Threw”? Tywin et al. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: “Threw”? Just for that I’m never changing it./s kidding thank you. Edited February 15 by Varysblackfyre321 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 9 hours ago, Raja said: Is the reporting in the guardian article then completely wrong then? No actual figures quoted, though I'm tired so I might have missed it. I've seen some referral figures, they are so low to start with, that even 2 or 3 a month could be considered a 'rapid rise'. I think this is a bit of misleading, agenda reporting. That's not to say Tate isn't a pathetic man baby who i hope gets locked up for about 1000 years. Edited February 15 by BigFatCoward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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