Ser Waymar's Unanswered Prayer

[Evolett]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

ETA: I also think we should regard their hates and fears in relation to their hiveminded mother far more than the Others themselves. Their "feelings" are hers.

True. If she is indeed still a "corpse bride" or revenant of the Undying type, then soul-confining iron could well be useful in confining her. 

 

On 2/10/2023 at 9:00 PM, sweetsunray said:

Because Old Nan never gets it entirely right. For example, she claims the Others took children to the wights as food. But wights don't eat. It's more correct than maester Yandel, but just off in the details.

Actually, Old Nan does get this mostly right, imo. 

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They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

There is one more wighted figure to consider - Ser Gregor / Robert Strong. GRRM does not reveal exactly how the man was raised from death but Qyburn's use of the puppeteer women and especially of Falyse Stokeworth is alluded to. This doesn't mean they were literally fed to Ser Gregor. Since he was poisoned, it could have involved an exchange of blood, their organs or even a magical use of their life force. Qyburn also becomes Cersei's new "Spider" after Varys disappears and Cersei herself is the great-grand daughter of Rohanne Webber, famously associated with spiders, all linking to the "Spider Goddess" motif.

Another of Old Nan's tales also alludes to this, recalled by Arya. The story is also connected to the idea of a "giant" such as the Mountain is, eating maidens - the one about the Titan of Braavos eating high born  maidens. Can't find the passage right now.  The Titan of course features in Arya's chapters but also in Sam's Braavos chapter, specifically also in relation to nightfall and the babe:

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A hollow rumbling echoed off the roofs of Braavos, like the sound of distant thunder; the Titan, sounding nightfall from across the lagoon. The noise was loud enough to wake the babe, and his sudden wail woke Maester Aemon. As Gilly went to give the boy the breast, the old man’s eyes opened ...

 

There is a difference here of course. Baby boys do not come into the picture as in Craster's offerings but maidens / women do. In the above passage, the baby Gilly feeds is not her own. Qyburn is not the original Spider either and his methods probably differ from those used to raise the wights beyond the Wall. As such, Cersei's piece of the puzzle may represent a turning point or there could be two eldritch entities involved.  

[Evolett]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:17 AM, Castellan said:

There is also this little thing in Tyrion's chapter when travelling to the Wall - he had borrowed some rare books from Winterfell:

Tyrion curled up in his fur with his back against the trunk, took a sip of the wine, and began to read about the properties of dragonbone. Dragonbone is black because of its high iron content, the book told him. It is strong as steel, yet lighter and far more flexible, and of course utterly impervious to fire. Dragonbone bows are greatly prized by the Dothraki, and small wonder. An archer so armed can outrange any wooden bow.

Good that you found that passage. I knew it was somewhere ... Yes dragonbone with its high iron content sounds like a possible ingredient for Valyrian Steel, especially since its light and flexible, something also ascribed to Valyrian Steel. Dragonbone's black colour also brings me back to the black iron weapons of the Ironborn and here I can only speculate. There is a possibility that Great Wyk and Old Wyk were once volcanic islands (wordplay on Wyk - candle wick). Both are mountainous and on Old Wyk we have locations such as Nagga's Hill and Nagga's Cradle, Nagga being the legendary sea dragon slain by the Grey King.
The mountains of Old Wyk are described as windy, cruel and black. Legend has it there were once dragons on Westeros and it would not surprise me if the slaying of the sea dragon myth is based on an actual occurence. Since dragons like to roost around volcanos, Old Wyk may have been the home of a dragon or dragons. Could the early ironborn have experimented with dragonbone as an addition to their swords, creating "black iron"?

Dragonbone being a main ingredient for the forging of Valyrian Steel would explain why none have been forged since the Doom. It may be more a matter of acquiring the material rather than lost knowledge for the Qohori smiths that are versed in reforging. No dragons, no bone. Perhaps those dragonbone skulls down in the depths of King's Landing can be repurposed .

This discussion of dragonbone and its possible properties also bring to mind the dragonbone-hilted Valyrian Steel dagger intended for Bran and what that could mean in respect of Bran's powers.  

 

[Nadden]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:03 PM, Evolett said:

Will warns that the sword will tangle Waymar up and advises using a knife instead. Reaching branches grab on the longsword and tug on the knight’s sable cloak. It’s almost as if the trees try to hold him back too, but he presses on, slashing at a branch as if as disdainful of the forest’s warnings as he is his of his brothers’ concerns.  

The irony in this, to me, is that later, when Will drops his Dirk…

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He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath. He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing.

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Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. 

 

The knife falls causing Waymar to suddenly be wary…

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"Will, where are you?" Ser Waymar called up. "Can you see anything?" He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand.

There’s a parallel scene in ASOS of something falling from a sentinel and making someone wary right before they an Other appears

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The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" 

In the prologue scene Waymar becomes disoriented and needs Will to call out to regain his bearings. The point is that the knife sets off a chain of events. 
 

“Better a knife”, he had warned Waymar. “A longsword will tangle you up.” Here’s the irony. The longsword that might have gotten tangled among the branches, is instead a knife which falls, threading its way through the thicket of branches to the lower limbs of the great green sentinel. It falls toward the area where Waymar had gained the ridge, where he had slashed at the branches. The Old Gods of this wood will now have their revenge. The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden with a soft thud.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:03 PM, Evolett said:

Right from the beginning, doubt is cast on Waymar’s sword. It is new and shiny and has probably never been swung in anger, suggesting Waymar has not had much practice with it. It stands in contrast to Gared’s knife and experience:

Will is a cowardly peasant as demonstrated later on. Waymar's sword is brand new but as a lord's son he would've swung his sword since the time he was old enough to lift it.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 11:03 PM, Evolett said:

A valuable weapon. An iron weapon. The Others hate iron, do they not? Would Waymar have defeated the Other with this weapon?

 

Good catch, but have we've been shown an other slayed by an iron, or do we even know if Others really hate iron? For all we know others have never encountered iron weapons, having come during the age of heroes, long before Andals brought iron weapons to Westeros(though there is an Ironborn king hinted at using an iron sword).

 

 

On 2/6/2023 at 11:03 PM, Evolett said:

What are the properties of black steel? Could it have properties similar to the soul-drinking black weapons of the Ironborn? (Lightbringer was “soul-drinking” too). Notice the colors match the Greyjoy sigil. Scrollwork always features spirals, incomplete circles, often in the form of vines that can be embellished with leaves and flowers, not unlike what one could make of a stylized kraken symbol. Could Mormont have given away two weapons that are effective against the Others? Longclaw to Jon and the battleaxe to Craster?

 

There's possibly something here with the colors, but I very much doubt that black steel itself is of any significance, unless say Shagga will take the black and open a branch office of the Watch at the Vale and  mountain wights.

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Lord Lefford frowned. “I saw that great hairy one today, the one who insisted that he must have two battle-axes, the heavy black steel ones with twin crescent blades.”

 

On 2/6/2023 at 11:03 PM, Evolett said:

What do you think? Valyrian steel did not exist during the last Long Night. A single blade of dragonsteel is mentioned. With what weapons did the latter-day warriors fight the battle for the Dawn? Did at least some of them wield black iron weapons, crafted perhaps by the Ironborn who have been mining iron ore and smithing for thousands of years? Is this why iron (and bronze) are metals dark and strong to fight against the cold?

Nor did the iron weapons and I seriously hope it remains that way. Plenty of inconsistencies in the story and world building already and I'm not talking about unreliable narrator stuff.

For example, Writing supposedly comes with Andal priest but Citadel, a place of learning, has existed long before any Andal savages ever poked their star carved heads to Westeros.

 

Since what I'll say right now may not be taken seriously as I joke about it frequently, I must say I am serious... for this time: Waymar's pray was unanswered because he prays to Seven. He is a Royce, their house words claim "We remember" but apparently they forgot or Waymar never learned. He should've prayed to the Old Gods, those prayers are answered.

Ned's prayers

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… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

Jon's thoughts

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I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

 

It is not too late, heathens of the south should cease their worship of the illegal aliens that are the Seven, who are powerless and pitiful compared to Old Gods(or Red Rahloo) and start praying to the Old Gods.

[LongRider]

On 3/4/2023 at 9:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Good catch, but have we've been shown an other slayed by an iron, or do we even know if Others really hate iron?

Sam informs Jon of what he found in the old scrolls

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Sam "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."  "Dragonsteel?" The term was new to Jon. "Valyrian steel?"  Jon II  ADWD

~~~snip~~~Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.  Jon XII  ADWD

 

Iron might not be the only ingredient of dragonsteel that can kill an Other.  Valarian swords are forged in dragonfire, with dragon bone, and secret spells, all of these may be needed to kill an Other.

Myths of the Last Hero slaying Others with a Valerian sword do not prove that is what actually happened, and Jon notes, the true test comes in battle. 

[Corvo the Crow]

21 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Sam informs Jon of what he found in the old scrolls

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Yes but those scrolls would date back from when? Several hundreds or thousands of years after the night. They didn't even have iron weapons until Andals or at least they weren't common (Ironborn king hinted to have). They didn't even have writing until supposedly. This second part I don't buy because the Citadel was formed in age of heroes but first part is true enough since First Men lost.

[Craving Peaches]

33 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They didn't even have writing until supposedly. This second part I don't buy because the Citadel was formed in age of heroes but first part is true enough since First Men lost.

Something doesn't add up. Either they did have writing or Citadel wasn't founded before Andals came. If they did have writing you would think the history would be a bit clearer due to the written sources, unless they all just happened to be destroyed. I don't think that's very likely so I am going to go with the second option - Citadel is not as old as it claims.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Something doesn't add up. Either they did have writing or Citadel wasn't founded before Andals came. If they did have writing you would think the history would be a bit clearer due to the written sources, unless they all just happened to be destroyed. I don't think that's very likely so I am going to go with the second option - Citadel is not as old as it claims.

But we are given specific names, names who are not as clouded within the fog of history as some others. We also have the foundation of Starry Sept etc and again more clear accounts of the arrival of Andals so there's some record keeping in place. I think it's just another GRRM mistake. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But we are given specific names, names who are not as clouded within the fog of history as some others.

Names are the sort of thing that could easily be passed on by oral traditions though. 

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We also have the foundation of Starry Sept etc and again more clear accounts of the arrival of Andals so there's some record keeping in place.

Well the Andals with their writing would be able to keep records of those, don't need the First Men to do that.

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think it's just another GRRM mistake. 

Could be.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes but those scrolls would date back from when? Several hundreds or thousands of years after the night.

I think you missed my point, the scrolls are talking about Valerian steel, only they call it Dragonsteel.  Valerian steel is made with dragon bone and magic, and that is what I am trying to get too.  A VS sword has more than iron in it, and the iron and the magic are what are important, when or who wrote the scrolls is not.  But there is something else, free folk don't have written records, so if the iron weapons they have, which they didn't make but acquired, worked against Others they might have an oral tradition about that.  That has so far not been the case, and they don't have VS swords handy.  It still comes down to, will a VS kill an Other?  Well, Jon doesn't know.

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Names are the sort of thing that could easily be passed on by oral traditions though. 

19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I meant the names during the foundation of Citadel. 

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well the Andals with their writing would be able to keep records of those, don't need the First Men to do that.

20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We are told that it is their writing but I can't remember any Andal writings prewesteros either.

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Could be.

A whole lot of things regarding Andals are pretty contradictory. They are supposedly tall blonde blue eyed viking like characters, even in universe, but the purest Andals, Sand Dornish who struck to the desert where no First Men were and no Rhoynar came, are exactly the opposite of that. Hoares carry the "Andal taint" they are black in their colorings. Myr was an Andal town and inhabitants are darker in their colorings. He either did a whole lot of blundering there or there's a secret Andal conspiracy that lie about their past. I really think there's no reason for the latter so it's the first.

Another thing not exactly related is round castles/towers. Supposedly First Men didn't have those and even early Andals didn't but Storm's end a quite old building is exactly built that way.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I think you missed my point, the scrolls are talking about Valerian steel, only they call it Dragonsteel.  Valerian steel is made with dragon bone and magic, and that is what I am trying to get too.  A VS sword has more than iron in it, and the iron and the magic are what are important, when or who wrote the scrolls is not.  But there is something else, free folk don't have written records, so if the iron weapons they have, which they didn't make but acquired, worked against Others they might have an oral tradition about that.  That has so far not been the case, and they don't have VS swords handy.  It still comes down to, will a VS kill an Other?  Well, Jon doesn't know.

I think you missed mine because Valyrian steels are of even more recent introduction to the Westerosi, only being around for 500 years.

 

Any knowledge regarding Others would be oral tradition that's put to paper much later. As songs/legends get stuff added, so will these records.

[Craving Peaches]

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

A whole lot of things regarding Andals are pretty contradictory. They are supposedly tall blonde blue eyed viking like characters, even in universe, but the purest Andals, Sand Dornish who struck to the desert where no First Men were and no Rhoynar came, are exactly the opposite of that.

Thought it was the Stoney Dornish living in the mountains who were the most Andal ones?

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Thought it was the Stoney Dornish living in the mountains who were the most Andal ones?

No they arethe most First Men. In fact, can't recall a single one among them who is of Andal descent. Salt Dornish was probably most Andal and First Men mixed until Rhoynar also came because Andals came to Dorne through sea and Until Nymeria no one was able to establish supremacy over another. Sand Dornish are the Andal adventurers who went to desert because no one was there. They didn't get as mixed with the Rhoynar either.

[Nadden]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:30 AM, Evolett said:

Will carries a dirk between his teeth as he climbs the tree. He finds the "cold iron" comforting. Will's dirk is an iron weapon. Cold iron was thought to repel, contain or harm fairies, witches, ghosts and other supernatural entities. The white walkers are in this group of "otherworldly" beings. Interestingly, Will survives up in the tree while the far-eyes did not. Might Will have made a difference if he had come down with his "cold iron," even if this difference only meant a temporary backing off of the Others?

Did you notice that Will drops that dirk?