Nightfall: Magic Swords and the Coming Long Night

[Curled Finger]

Nightfall is an interesting blade.  There is a moonstone in the pommel.  Moonstones don’t appear a great lot in story, but the one really big time a really big one did we all noticed.  Any one remember Maynard Plumm?   If you aren’t reminded of that when you see a magic sword with a moonstone in it then you don’t read enough forum topics.  Start participating.  Moonstone screams glamour to me and magic and all manner of just creepy tree magic soul sucking memory taking stuff.  The fact that Dalton Greyjoy, The Red Kraken, Gangsta Reaver is the guy who’s actually credited with retrieving this sword and claiming it (for?) Westeros is disconcerting.  Even if it was from a lousy stinking corsair.  Oh sure, Nightfall is now in the hands of an oddly progressive knight (?) from the Iron Islands (!) named Harras Harlaw, heir to the Ten Towers.  Not so fast.  Harlaw is out island hopping with Euron in the Shields and is the newly minted Lord of Greyshield.    

Let’s be clear here.  Euron Greyjoy is a boss level evil sorcerer.  His little brother, the priest even, has visions of big bro with power boosting defense armor and thrones and frolicking dwarves and debauchery a plenty.  This does not bode well for anyone any where.  He’s got all this sacrifice going.  We’ve seen what that does.  He’s got his own pregnant salt thrall tied up with his priest brother at the front of the ship.  All he needs is a really powerful magic sword now.   

If you go down the list you will see that most of the swords names match up with another sword.  Nightfall happens to match Dawn and Lightbringer.  What do you think will happen when Euron slits Harlaw’s throat for Nightfall?  
 

[Craving Peaches]

I believe there could be an association between moonstones and the Faith of the Seven. The pious Lord Sunglass (later burned by Melisandre) is noted to be wearing moonstones. The Arryns who are also presumably followers of the Seven wear moonstones.

Quote

Lord Sunglass wore moonstones at throat and wrist and finger

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I believe there could be an association between moonstones and the Faith of the Seven. The pious Lord Sunglass (later burned by Melisandre) is noted to be wearing moonstones. The Arryns who are also presumably followers of the Seven wear moonstones.

BIG things, Peaches.  Get on the good foot.  

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

BIG things, Peaches.  Get on the good foot. 

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I can't quite grasp your meaning 

 

[Curled Finger]

It's OK Peaches.  Get on the good foot is an old song.  Do you think it matters if Euron gets the sword or not?  I see a lot of set up for it.  

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you think it matters if Euron gets the sword or not?  I see a lot of set up for it.  

I will come back later with more detailed analysis. It may be later in the week when I have more time. But I do think Euron will want to get his hands on that sword. Euron wants to upend the current cosmic order. Nightfall with its name and moonstone pommel would seem to symbolise a change of state. It could be a key or important in some ritual Euron wants to perform.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

 It could be a key

Oh, that would be exquisite.

[Craving Peaches]

Nightfall is another word for dusk. So I would expect Nightfall and Dawn to form a pair. I am not sure where Lightbringer fits as it seems to me to be like a torch more than the 'natural force' of the other two. I don't think it can fit cleanly into a trio with the others because it would not be balanced. But both Lightbringer and Dawn seem to be in the way of what Euron wants to do.

[Evolett]

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Nightfall is another word for dusk. So I would expect Nightfall and Dawn to form a pair. I am not sure where Lightbringer fits as it seems to me to be like a torch more than the 'natural force' of the other two.

That's a good point. I guess Nightfall and Dawn are two extremes with Lightbringer in the middle. Lightbringer can "bring" the light or lead the way to Dawn. But as a torch, (Mormont's torch) it can just as well be snuffed out and be of no use. Perhaps that's what Thoros's fake wildfire-powered blades tell us. The fire does not persist. It dies out at some point. When that happened to him during a melee, he lost the fight. Lightbringer needs to keep burning to be useful. 

 

59 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you think it matters if Euron gets the sword or not?  I see a lot of set up for it.  

I can see him gaining possession of Nightfall. He needs a Valyrian steel sword to complement his armour and this one is basically at his fingertips. If Nightfall and Dawn are opposites and Dawn is another sword "alive with light," perhaps Nightfall "drinks the light," like the greasy black stone in Asshai or the HotU. That would be a contribution to bringing darkness. 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Evolett said:

That's a good point. I guess Nightfall and Dawn are two extremes with Lightbringer in the middle. Lightbringer can "bring" the light or lead the way to Dawn. But as a torch, (Mormont's torch) it can just as well be snuffed out and be of no use. Perhaps that's what Thoros's fake wildfire-powered blades tell us. The fire does not persist. It dies out at some point. When that happened to him during a melee, he lost the fight. Lightbringer needs to keep burning to be useful. 

 

I can see him gaining possession of Nightfall. He needs a Valyrian steel sword to complement his armour and this one is basically at his fingertips. If Nightfall and Dawn are opposites and Dawn is another sword "alive with light," perhaps Nightfall "drinks the light," like the greasy black stone in Asshai or the HotU. That would be a contribution to bringing darkness. 

I guess I gave up a long time ago with Dawn and just figured it is Lightbringer.  That is my silly way of explaining that Lightbringer is more of an idea than a physical sword, in my thinking at any rate.  Sorry, I am not a great symbolism guy.  The bit with the torch makes a lot of practical sense though.  What have you got when the torch goes out?  You mentioned Thoros' sword trick which always takes me to Beric's cooler yet trick of lighting swords with his blood which is precisely where I always trip myself up on bloodlines and magic swords.  Yet the Greyjoys are...what?  

Well, I reckon they need to be seriously considered here in the magical sword and heroes realm.  And evil sorcerers.  It took me a very long time to come around to this idea that Nightfall could be a tool for evil instead of good, still the math doesn't add up with all the swords in play. As First Men, the Greyjoys have whatever magic it is they brought over with them and I imagine they are responsible for the iron you might be having some fun with over in your cool topic as well as subject to any pacts made with the COTF before during or after the first Long Night.  It's easy to forget these guys.  They bug, but they matter in big ways.  

If history is cyclical as we suspect it is maybe there was someone like Euron who caused TLN to engage in high gear.  Best I can do is the Nights King, but the timeline does not fit.  Like that matters, right?  Someone terrible and powerful and magical.  Someone to in the darkness bind them...sorry, couldn't resist.  

As you say, Euron does sort of need Nightfall to complete his collection of cool stuff.  Once Nightfall does what Euron intends for it to do, frighteningly as you describe, drink the light, what happens next?  Yikes! 

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

But as a torch, (Mormont's torch) it can just as well be snuffed out and be of no use

hmmm,

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

The bit with the torch makes a lot of practical sense though.  What have you got when the torch goes out? 

This reminds me of Jamie's weirwood dream, where in the dream both Jamie and Brienne have flaming swords.  However, in his dream, Jaime knows that his doom, which he describes as "something dark and terrible", awaits him.  When he and Bri's swords start to go out, he awakens while screaming.  

Jon also has an interesting dream "Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere." Two dreams, which many in the fandom, including yours truly, believe these dreams and Theon's feast of the dead dream are all connected.  As the swords in Jamie's dream fades, Jon notes a light has gone out and his dream gets even more frightening than it was, until he awakened.

The point of all of this, if a flaming sword is supposed to one's salvation, it doesn't seem to be reliable.  Even Beric's flaming sword could not defeat the Hound, and he's not only terrified of fire, but continued to fight after being burned by Beric's sword.  Perhaps all flaming swords are mummer's tricks?

 

[Evolett]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If history is cyclical as we suspect it is maybe there was someone like Euron who caused TLN to engage in high gear. 

The Forsaken chapter really puts Euron on a par with the Bloodstone Emperor. The BSE was said to have ushered in the Long Night and I think that word is important and significant. He didn't cause it but did something to facilitate the LN coming about, the sun "hiding it's face." Perhaps Nightfall is simply part of this symbolism. 

And coming to think of it, I can't help but compare Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna with this metaphor of the sun hiding its face. As Ned recalls, it is the moment when "all smiles die." Smiles light up the face. When smiles die, the face "darkens". Rhaegar is in night black armour and comes across as some kind of super knight - no lance can touch him, all fall before him. One can't get past the notion that the Tourney at Harrenhal started off the countdown to the current Long Night. The False Spring ends and winter sets in with a vengeance after that. But why do all the smiles die? Because it's a slight against Elia's honour, though Brandon takes it as a slight against Lyanna's. Maybe a bit of both. House Martell has the sun sigil though, with a spear thrust through it. Maybe Rhaegar crowning Lyanna over Elia is part of this "ushering in" symbolism.

Moonstones are associated with the Faith on two occasions but also to characters with fire symbolism. Lord Sunglass is one and is burned by Melisandre. Sansa and Lysa of the auburn hair, "kissed by fire," wear moonstone jewelry. Lysa threatened to throw Sansa out the Moon Door and ended up exiting through it herself. Sweets of the Valyrian features, Yezzan's favourite "treasure," also wears moonstones. Aside from Sansa who is saved by Littlefinger, all  of these characters meet dreadful ends. 

Nightfall has a moonstone pommel. And Euron wants Valyrian descendant Dany, who was the "moon" of Drogo's life, as his wife. Is there a connection here? Is Euron planning a Nissa Nissa type sacrifice to power whatever magic he has in mind to further his cause? I'm only speculating on account of the symbolism here but what a twist that would be if Nightfall should turn into a lightbringing sword. 

10 minutes ago, LongRider said:

This reminds me of Jamie's weirwood dream, where in the dream both Jamie and Brienne have flaming swords.  However, in his dream, Jaime knows that his doom, which he describes as "something dark and terrible", awaits him.  When he and Bri's swords start to go out, he awakens while screaming.  

Jon also has an interesting dream "Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere." Two dreams, which many in the fandom, including yours truly, believe these dreams and Theon's feast of the dead dream are all connected.  As the swords in Jamie's dream fades, Jon notes a light has gone out and his dream gets even more frightening than it was, until he is awakened.

The point of all of this, if a flaming sword is supposed to one's salvation, it doesn't seem to be reliable.  Even Beric's flaming sword could not defeat the Hound, and he's not only terrified of fire, continued to fight after being burned by Beric's sword.  Perhaps all flaming swords are mummer's tricks?

Those are really great examples for lightbringing swords going out. Stannis's Lightbringer is also a mummer's trick. 

[chrisdaw]

There is very big obvious symbolism associated with the Moon - Dany. If GRRM writes moon you should first exhaust all line of thought relating to Dany.

So a moon pommel on a sword called Nightfall would suggest it will be involved in Dany's downfall, and that does fit in nicely with Euron and particularly the Bloodstone Emperor parallel. The Bloodstone Emperor (Euron) brought down the Amethyst Empress (Dany) and the act is thought to have to ushered in the Long Night. So the moonstone pommel may relate to the sword (or just it's wielder) bringing about Dany's downfall and by way of its name bringing the Long Night.

The below is possible foreshadowing. Daario is the prototype Euron with relation to Dany, the charming captain who'll want to slay her foes for her. The theme in the passage below is Dany trying to choose the peaceful solution (Hizdahr marriage) instead of violence by way of people like Daario.

Quote

But when the sun rose upon her wedding day so did Daario Naharis, donning his clothes and buckling on his sword belt with its gleaming golden wantons. "Where are you going?" Dany asked him. "I forbid you to make a sortie today."

"My queen is cruel," her captain said. "If I cannot slay your foes, how shall I amuse myself whilst you are being wed?"

"By nightfall I shall have no foes."

"It is only dawn, sweet queen. The day is long. Time enough for one last sortie. I will bring you back the head of Brown Ben Plumm for a wedding gift."

This may be foreshadowing going the other way in future when Euron comes calling, that by Euron wielding Nightfall will she deal with her foes in Westeros.

There's also the Bloodstone Emperor having thrown out the Yi Ti gods and Harlaw defeating Seven challengers outside Grimston before the Septon declared the gods had spoken and they yielded the castle. Euron is set to cast down gods, and the sword following that same sort of symbolism tracks well for a coming together of the two.

Victarion considers what it'd be like to fight Harlaw, to cross his axe with a Valyrian steel blade. It's leading somewhere, Vic will fight someone wielding Valyrian steel, and I've been thinking on who for a long time, Jorah, Barristan, etc. Maybe it's Euron himself wielding Nightfall (and in X armour) that Vic is set to fight in glorious single combat. Some of his story might be clues for this direction, like how he is so set against fighting Euron because he's his brother and the gods wouldn't allow it, maybe his is a story of finally relenting, maybe it'll backfire and he should have listened to the gods. We are introduced to Victarion fighting and winning while armoured against unarmored men, maybe it's a theme running into a situation where Victarion will be unable to defeat Euron because Euron's armour and sword are too effective.

There is heavy foreshadowing relating to the sword and Tyrell's though, of which it is in the vicinity (which doesn't disprove the sword relating to Dany's downfall or the Long Night, the sword can be involved in more than one thing).

Quote

Erich V Harlaw retook Fair Island in his youth, only to lose it again in his old age. His son Harron slew Gareth the Grim of Highgarden beneath the walls of Oldtown.

Beneath the walls of Highgarden, Harron Harlaw fought Gareth Grim of Highgarden. I think this is some foreshadowing through name play and we'll have Harras Harlaw vs Garlan the Gallant of Highgarden. Garlan is currently gathering men to take back the islands Harras helped take and was granted lordship (of one).

Perhaps they meet in battle, Garlan wins, takes Nightfall, and Euron kills Garlan and that's how he ends up with it. I should probably do some reading of Garlan mentions to see if there's anything hinting towards a Euron meeting.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

hmmm,

This reminds me of Jamie's weirwood dream, where in the dream both Jamie and Brienne have flaming swords.  However, in his dream, Jaime knows that his doom, which he describes as "something dark and terrible", awaits him.  When he and Bri's swords start to go out, he awakens while screaming.  

Jon also has an interesting dream "Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere." Two dreams, which many in the fandom, including yours truly, believe these dreams and Theon's feast of the dead dream are all connected.  As the swords in Jamie's dream fades, Jon notes a light has gone out and his dream gets even more frightening than it was, until he is awakened.

The point of all of this, if a flaming sword is supposed to one's salvation, it doesn't seem to be reliable.  Even Beric's flaming sword could not defeat the Hound, and he's not only terrified of fire, continued to fight after being burned by Beric's sword.  Perhaps all flaming swords are mummer's tricks?

 

Always such interesting thoughts in the corners of your mind.  You are focusing on lights going out exactly where I am focusing on them being on.  Jamie's dream is a perfect place.  They are fine so long as the light stays on.  All Westeros is fine so long as the light stays on.  These stories and situations tell us very specifically the light is going out.  This sword name tells us the light is going out.  The flame is not the salvation so much as the restoration of light.  You brought up a really interesting example with Beric and the Hound.   What if I suppose to you that all the fight was is to show you the power in blood and show you just how powerful the real heroes are?  In the end, that is what I got out of it.   I think we have the same idea from opposite sides.  

All your dredging up of dreams made me recall Bran's heart of winter experience and wasn't that just desolate?  I think that's what all these dreams are telling us.  Darkness is coming.  Get on the good foot, NOW.  

[Curled Finger]

I have to leave the symbolism to your greater minds.  Baby steps for me.  However, @Evolett, thanks for reminding me of BSE as he did slip my mind and yes of course, he's a great example of what could have begun the original Long Night.  There is @chrisdaw with one of my all time favorite Nightfall predictions which I have enjoyed forever.  I gotta go read it!~

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Victarion considers what it'd be like to fight Harlaw, to cross his axe with a Valyrian steel blade. It's leading somewhere, Vic will fight someone wielding Valyrian steel, and I've been thinking on who for a long time, Jorah, Barristan, etc. Maybe it's Euron himself wielding Nightfall (and in Valyrian armour) that Vic is set to fight in glorious single combat. Some of his story might be clues for this direction, like how he is so set against fighting Euron because he's his brother and the gods wouldn't allow it, maybe his is a story of finally relenting, maybe it'll backfire and he should have listened to the gods. We are introduced to Victarion fighting and winning while armoured against unarmored men, maybe it's a theme running into a situation where Victarion will be unable to defeat Euron because Euron's armour and sword are too effective.

There is heavy foreshadowing relating to the sword and Tyrell's though, of which it is in the vicinity (which doesn't disprove the sword relating to Dany's downfall or the Long Night, the sword can be involved in more than one thing).

Beneath the walls of Highgarden, Harron Harlaw fought Gareth Grim of Highgarden. I think this is some foreshadowing through name play and we'll have Harras Harlaw vs Garlan the Gallant of Highgarden. Garlan is currently gathering men to take back the islands Harras helped take and was granted lordship (of one).

Perhaps they meet in battle, Garlan wins, takes Nightfall, and Euron kills Garlan and that's how he ends up with it. I should probably do some reading of Garlan mentions to see if there's anything hinting towards a Euron meeting.

Only VS I think Vic is near just now is Caggo's arakh, HOWEVER, do you think old hapless one handed Victarion could get Nightfall from Euron?  You know Garlan Hightower has been on my list of 28 heroes forever due to your prediction.  It is only recently that I have begun to explore this idea that not all my beloved magical swords will be utilized for light and goodness.  It is not even my idea, that belongs to our old friend @Cridefea.  The more I go over our old notes the more it makes sense and all the other swords make more sense.  If you do get around to that reading, please let me know what you find.  Euron is in the neighborhood.  I don't think a meeting between he and Garlan is so unthinkable as it was before we read The Forsaken.  

Further, with Garlan as a hero, is his sacrifice, perhaps with a fine Valyrian Steel longsword, what it may take to satisfy the blood price Euron needs to pay to bring on this Long Night? 

[LongRider]

26 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  You are focusing on lights going out exactly where I am focusing on them being on.  Jamie's dream is a perfect place.  They are fine so long as the light stays on.  All Westeros is fine so long as the light stays on.  These stories and situations tell us very specifically the light is going out.  This sword name tells us the light is going out.  The flame is not the salvation so much as the restoration of light.

Great comment.

edt: The more I think of your comment @Curled Finger the more I think of this from Jon's dream "A light has gone out somewhere."  Every time I read Jon's dream; the sentence jumps out at me.  The sword's light quickly goes out, the task is the restoration of the light, not bringing in new light by a magic sword.

[chrisdaw]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Only VS I think Vic is near just now is Caggo's arakh, HOWEVER, do you think old hapless one handed Victarion could get Nightfall from Euron?  You know Garlan Hightower has been on my list of 28 heroes forever due to your prediction.  It is only recently that I have begun to explore this idea that not all my beloved magical swords will be utilized for light and goodness.  It is not even my idea, that belongs to our old friend @Cridefea.  The more I go over our old notes the more it makes sense and all the other swords make more sense.  If you do get around to that reading, please let me know what you find.  Euron is in the neighborhood.  I don't think a meeting between he and Garlan is so unthinkable as it was before we read The Forsaken.  

Further, with Garlan as a hero, is his sacrifice, perhaps with a fine Valyrian Steel longsword, what it may take to satisfy the blood price Euron needs to pay to bring on this Long Night? 

I don't think either Garlan or Victarion would win against Euron, Euron is just more important and persisting longer in the story, I think either or both make great fodder for beefing up Euron as a bad ass and particularly in Garlan's case evil if Euron were to kill him.

I don't think they relate to the Long Night, they're too small time.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't think either Garlan or Victarion would win against Euron, Euron is just more important and persisting longer in the story, I think either or both make great fodder for beefing up Euron as a bad ass and particularly in Garlan's case evil if Euron were to kill him.

I don't think they relate to the Long Night, they're too small time.

That's interesting coming from you, Ser.  Euron has all this wonderful religious sacrifice, not to mention kin thrown in for fun, spice maybe.  It's Euron, who knows?  I can see him taking Harlaw out himself and I can see him claiming he can't be a kinslayer and making someone else do it because he's weird that way.  I value Hightower more than I probably should, but I only have 28 heroes out of hundreds of possibilities.  I was kind of hoping that spilling the blood of an appointed hero would matter.  I'm trying to get a feel for what Euron can do to make whatever he is trying to do actually happen.  Killing Dany or some child he may impregnate her with just seems so already done to me.  

[LongRider]

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

Stannis's Lightbringer is also a mummer's trick

I just have to say this; the Lightbringer sword Mel gave to Stannis was so fake, even a blind man could see it.