King Maegor the Cool Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 How do you think Sers Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Jonothor Darry, Barristan Selmy, or Lewyn Martell would’ve acted in that moment as Kings Landing fell? Would they have slain the pyromancers and then Aerys as Jaime did? Would they have stood by as thousands of innocents burned to death? Would they have imprisoned Aerys? What if they were all protecting the King and Jaime spoke out? How would that have played out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 I think the others were all cowards in a way, they would rather cling to their oaths than accept that the institution of the Kingsguard, and by extension the Monarchy, was fundamentally flawed. Not to mention their oaths conflict with each other. But the oath to obey the King obviously takes precedence over the oath to protect the innocent. I think they would have stood there. Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthurs Dawn Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 Most of them I imagine would be too hesitant to raise a hand against the king. The older kingsguard especially. My own personal answers are, Barriston - would have protested, but ultimately obey the king Darry - would probably do nothing Martell, Dayne, Hightower, & Whent - these knights were already conspiring with Rhaegar against the king anyway, I believe they would do whatever they could to bring a stop to it, for the sake of everyone in the city. Martell especially since Elia and her children were there. I personally believe most of them would imprison Aerys over slaying him, (I could see Martell killing him.) The other three I believe would have subdued him as soon as possible. Raven Princling, Willam Stark and KingStoneheart 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I think the others were all cowards in a way, they would rather cling to their oaths than accept that the institution of the Kingsguard, and by extension the Monarchy, was fundamentally flawed. Not to mention their oaths conflict with each other. But the oath to obey the King obviously takes precedence over the oath to protect the innocent. I think they would have stood there. See I think there is a difference between the cowardice of “just following orders/keeping your oath” Vs allowing an absolutely senseless act of mass murder. I think in that moment, when they knew it was over, that they would’ve acted independently. Like previously said, it seems Whent and Dayne were in in Rhaegar’s plan to overthrow Aerys. Possibly Lewyn and Hightower as well. I think they probably would’ve killed the pyromancers at least, and taken the King prisoner until the rebels arrived. But that just me. Out of all of them, I see Lewyn as the most likely to do exactly as Jaime did. If he is anything like either of his brothers, he would’ve defended his sister and children. Morte, Ser Arthurs Dawn and Aldarion 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 6 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: Out of all of them, I see Lewyn as the most likely to do exactly as Jaime did. If he is anything like either of his brothers, he would’ve defended his sister and children. Maybe Lewyn. But the others' plan to replace Aerys with Rhaegar wouldn't matter anymore because Rhaegar was dead. They'd have to face a choice that no 'true knight' should be confronted with, because no matter what they do they would be breaking their oaths. Maybe they would even kill themselves rather than make the choice. I think they'd have some sort of breakdown. I expect a lot of protest. But ultimately it would probably be that they still don't raise a hand to Aerys, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 All of them would have done exactly the same they did while they obediently stood guard outside the room while Aerys raped and brutalised Rhaella. In other words, they would have done their duty and blindly stuck by their precious vows. Craving Peaches and Aejohn the Conqueroo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 I agree that Llewyn is the only other one who even might. Though to be fair, blowing up the city is a new factor and it’s hard to know how each responds to that. I guess they are probably less informed than Jaime was because they’d have been less likely to follow their suspicions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: See I think there is a difference between the cowardice of “just following orders/keeping your oath” Vs allowing an absolutely senseless act of mass murder. I think in that moment, when they knew it was over, that they would’ve acted independently. Like previously said, it seems Whent and Dayne were in in Rhaegar’s plan to overthrow Aerys. Possibly Lewyn and Hightower as well. I think they probably would’ve killed the pyromancers at least, and taken the King prisoner until the rebels arrived. But that just me. Out of all of them, I see Lewyn as the most likely to do exactly as Jaime did. If he is anything like either of his brothers, he would’ve defended his sister and children. 19 minutes ago, James Arryn said: I agree that Llewyn is the only other one who even might. Though to be fair, blowing up the city is a new factor and it’s hard to know how each responds to that. I guess they are probably less informed than Jaime was because they’d have been less likely to follow their suspicions. Good points both. I was perhaps a tad too rash, but I’ll never forgive any of them for their lack of action irt not defending Rhaella from Aerys. Especially when we consider that the KG would have known better than anyone how bad the abuse was and how increasingly unstable Aerys had become. Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 That is a different question to answer since we have yet no clue about what exactly made Ser Arthur Dayne so special in the eyes of so many people. Also, of course, the fact that not just Rhaegar's two buddies Arthur and Oswell were with Lyanna but also Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, indicates that not only the former but also the latter had certain issues with or reservations about His Grace Aerys II, the Mad King. Barristan Selmy would not have idly stood by while Aerys II burned down all of KL. He had no clue about the wildfire plan - had he known, he would have done something to stop it, that much is clear. Jonothor Darry doesn't seem to have been all that great a guy ... but the notion that people would actually put 'their precious vows' over the very lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people is ludicrous. Especially since we would also talk about the life of the Mad King there (which they have sworn to protect) as well as their own lives. Nobody would escape the wildfire inferno once it has started. While the way Rhaella was treated by her brother-husband is clearly horrible - Aerys II wasn't just her brother and king, he was her husband. And husbands can treat their wives however they like in the marriage bed. They are not beholden to a specific pleasant behavior. We see the same kind of thing with Ramsay and Jeyne (and Theon). In the case of 'Arya Stark' it is unwise to give the impression Ramsay Bolton mistreats his Stark lady wife ... but only because it would be bad for the public image and subsequent support of House Bolton in the North. Not because there are laws and customs stipulating that you treat your wife the way any decent person would. In that sense - not only the Kingsguard ignore the Aerys-Rhaella thing but any man-at-arms, household knight, etc. ignores it if the lord of the castle or king of the Realm treats his wife however he sees fit, and not how she might wanted to be treated by him. This is a bug written into the legal framework of this entire society, not some special case. Aldarion and Morte 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 I’m not trying to say their honor is stainless or that they always did the right thing. But I think 5/6 of them at least would’ve stopped the plan from happening. Only one I’m not sure on is Darry and it’s because we know so little about him other than what Dany remembers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 3 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: I’m not trying to say their honor is stainless or that they always did the right thing. But I think 5/6 of them at least would’ve stopped the plan from happening. Only one I’m not sure on is Darry and it’s because we know so little about him other than what Dany remembers. Doesn’t Dany remember a different Darry? kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 15 minutes ago, James Arryn said: Doesn’t Dany remember a different Darry? I thought it was him but he was a drunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 17 minutes ago, James Arryn said: Doesn’t Dany remember a different Darry? Yes, the Darry Dany remembers is Willem Darry, who was the Red Keep’s MaA. Morte 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 Just now, kissdbyfire said: Yes, the Darry Dany remembers is Willem Darry, who was the Red Keep’s MaA. What he said I just looked it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 Just now, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: What he said I just looked it up What who said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Maegor the Cool Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: What who said? What you said. Are you a she? On the rainbow in between? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 They'd have all obeyed and stayed put, it's the point the text is carving out, there's no-one like Jaime and everyone agrees they're all better men than him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Jaime was alone; he had to act quickly. If two or more of the knights had become aware of the situation, they would have been able to act with some restraint. They could have imprisoned the king in his own chambers, and waited for a chance to have the Small Council discuss the matter. They could have rationalized their disobedience as a way of protecting the king from future harm (punishment for his insane actions). King Maegor the Cool and Morte 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 In context you have to remember that even one of Aerys' worst cronies and lickspittles, Qarlton Chelsted, stood up against him once he realized what was going on with the wildfire. The notion that the best Kingsguard of all time in the opinion of many would have just stood there and watched as this unfolded is pretty ludicrous in that light. But most of them simply weren't there. Barristan Selmy has yet no clue what the Mad King planned. Aldarion and Morte 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 10 hours ago, Lord Varys said: While the way Rhaella was treated by her brother-husband is clearly horrible - Aerys II wasn't just her brother and king, he was her husband. And husbands can treat their wives however they like in the marriage bed. They are not beholden to a specific pleasant behavior. We see the same kind of thing with Ramsay and Jeyne (and Theon). In the case of 'Arya Stark' it is unwise to give the impression Ramsay Bolton mistreats his Stark lady wife ... but only because it would be bad for the public image and subsequent support of House Bolton in the North. Not because there are laws and customs stipulating that you treat your wife the way any decent person would. In that sense - not only the Kingsguard ignore the Aerys-Rhaella thing but any man-at-arms, household knight, etc. ignores it if the lord of the castle or king of the Realm treats his wife however he sees fit, and not how she might wanted to be treated by him. This is a bug written into the legal framework of this entire society, not some special case. there may well be laws and /or customs that you don't mistreat your wife as they understand the term to mean however Rhaella has the problem that any case for mistreatment would go to either the head of her family or the crown which in both cases is her husband. A Queen who was backed by her own or her family's power as Eleanor or Katherine of Aragon were was a very different position and could easily end up like Joffrey or Henry the eighth who only escaped the same fate because Katherine didn't want to rule England. Morte 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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