The Seven Kingdoms Least to Most Populous

[Alden Rothack]

5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Has GRRM ever commented on whether or not the Iron Islands have any forestation and how they build their ships?

where would they be, the isles are tiny

[Phylum of Alexandria]

7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Has GRRM ever commented on whether or not the Iron Islands have any forestation and how they build their ships?

The Ironborn have an interesting history, with the Goodbrothers having some clear Garth Greenhand/fertility god imagery. And here is a description of their land:

"The way was rough, up hills and woods and stony defiles, along a narrow track that oft seemed to disappear beneath the horse's hooves. Great Wyk was the largest of the Iron Islands, so vast that some of its lords had holdings that did not front upon the holy sea. Gorold Goodbrother was one such. His keep was in the Hardstone Hills, as far from the Drowned God's realm as any place in the isles. Gorold's folk toiled down in Gorold's mines, in the stony dark beneath the earth. Some lived and died without setting eyes upon salt water. Small wonder that such folk are crabbed and queer." -- The Prophet, AFFC

I think most ship wood comes from other lands, but perhaps earlier there were more trees around.

[Alden Rothack]

22 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

The Ironborn have an interesting history, with the Goodbrothers having some clear Garth Greenhand/fertility god imagery. And here is a description of their land:

"The way was rough, up hills and woods and stony defiles, along a narrow track that oft seemed to disappear beneath the horse's hooves. Great Wyk was the largest of the Iron Islands, so vast that some of its lords had holdings that did not front upon the holy sea. Gorold Goodbrother was one such. His keep was in the Hardstone Hills, as far from the Drowned God's realm as any place in the isles. Gorold's folk toiled down in Gorold's mines, in the stony dark beneath the earth. Some lived and died without setting eyes upon salt water. Small wonder that such folk are crabbed and queer." -- The Prophet, AFFC

I think most ship wood comes from other lands, but perhaps earlier there were more trees around.

Does anybody have any specifics as to the size of individual isles?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

7 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Does anybody have any specifics as to the size of individual isles?

Not that I know of. There's the TWOIAF map, but it doesn't get precise. 

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/the-west/iron-islands-from-map-of-the-west-for-game-of-thrones/

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Not that I know of. There's the TWOIAF map, but it doesn't get precise. 

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/the-west/iron-islands-from-map-of-the-west-for-game-of-thrones/

The Arbour, Driftmark and Dragonstone all manage to harbour large fleets

[Vaegon the dragonless]

If we are talking by population size, my guess would be:

Dorne: Repeatedly told that it is the less populous and outside the red mountains and the green blood, it seems that it is almost completely empty.

Iron Island: It seem like they dont have a huge population and it would be hard to maintain a big population even if they can fish the hell out of the sea around them, also the size of the island is limited, and taking slaves can only help so much.

Crownlands: It seem like it is quite well populated and have way's to feed that population, and having Kings landing helps but it is just too small in size.

Stormlands: We dont here a lot about the Stormlands but they seem full of forest and they dont have any town, to me that tells use that they are on the smaller side of population spectrum.

Vale: The Vale proper seem fairly heavly populated but the rest of the territory seem to be made of a lot of cliffs and mountains so that would limit its population by some margin, It also is one of the smaller kingdoms, but the fact they have a city shows it is still well populated.

North: Even if it is sparsely populated it is supposed to be has big has all the other kingdoms combined, so that still gives them a big population, I would put them ahead of the Vale, but not by much, because of the fact they have in addition to a city, White Harbour, one other town of note, Barrowton, something we dont here about in the Vale, so I would put the North a little ahead in pure numbers.

Westerlands: It seems like it is quite densely populated even if it is composed of a lot of mountain's and hills, they have the third biggest town and decent farm lands in the south, but I dont think they have a massive advantage compare to the North or Vale, but still a confortable lead.

Riverlands: The Riverlands are some of the most populous and fertile lands of Westeros, we have many town that could have been city's but dont have the privileges to become them, the main problem is that they are in a place were war is fought quite often, but that does not impact population that much in the long term, after all the region of Germany near the French border is extremely well populated, even if it was the place most of the wars between the two where fought, so Yeah I would say the Riverlands are a not so close second but far ahead of the Westerlands, they could actually be close to first if the Crownlands where added to them.

Reach: Like quite a few people said, it is the most fertile and the second biggest kingdom, it has the second biggest city and quite a few towns, so its population must be quite high and a easy number one.

[BlackLightning]

• Dorne
• Iron Islands
• Stormlands
• Crownlands
• North
• Vale
• Westerlands
• Riverlands
• Reach

 

The fact that the Iron Islands has a larger population than Dorne (and the fact that Dorne is mostly empty) blows my mind. It should be the either way around.

[Gilbert Green]

"Populous" can refer to density, but can also refer to absolute numbers.  Do we know what sense GRRM intends?

[Alden Rothack]

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

"Populous" can refer to density, but can also refer to absolute numbers.  Do we know what sense GRRM intends?

since only one of the two makes any sense I have always presumed he meant population density as Dorne being the least dense makes sense whereas the Iron Islands and the Crownlands and maybe the Stormlands have fewer in absolute terms despite being denser populated.

[Alden Rothack]

6 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

If we are talking by population size, my guess would be:

Dorne: Repeatedly told that it is the less populous and outside the red mountains and the green blood, it seems that it is almost completely empty.

Dorne has the sparest population not the lowest in absolute terms, being the third largest offsets a good deal of that given that its the size of the Stormlands and Crownlands combined

6 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Iron Island: It seem like they dont have a huge population and it would be hard to maintain a big population even if they can fish the hell out of the sea around them, also the size of the island is limited, and taking slaves can only help so much.

Crownlands: It seem like it is quite well populated and have way's to feed that population, and having Kings landing helps but it is just too small in size.

these should be the lowest and second lowest due to size

6 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Stormlands: We dont here a lot about the Stormlands but they seem full of forest and they dont have any town, to me that tells use that they are on the smaller side of population spectrum.

Vale: The Vale proper seem fairly heavly populated but the rest of the territory seem to be made of a lot of cliffs and mountains so that would limit its population by some margin, It also is one of the smaller kingdoms, but the fact they have a city shows it is still well populated.

North: Even if it is sparsely populated it is supposed to be has big has all the other kingdoms combined, so that still gives them a big population, I would put them ahead of the Vale, but not by much, because of the fact they have in addition to a city, White Harbour, one other town of note, Barrowton, something we dont here about in the Vale, so I would put the North a little ahead in pure numbers.

the North is so big that even with the second most dispersed population its still going to the second largest in absolute terms

6 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Westerlands: It seems like it is quite densely populated even if it is composed of a lot of mountain's and hills, they have the third biggest town and decent farm lands in the south, but I dont think they have a massive advantage compare to the North or Vale, but still a confortable lead.

Nope, the sheer size of the North means that the Westerlands would need five times the density to break even

6 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Riverlands: The Riverlands are some of the most populous and fertile lands of Westeros, we have many town that could have been city's but dont have the privileges to become them, the main problem is that they are in a place were war is fought quite often, but that does not impact population that much in the long term, after all the region of Germany near the French border is extremely well populated, even if it was the place most of the wars between the two where fought, so Yeah I would say the Riverlands are a not so close second but far ahead of the Westerlands, they could actually be close to first if the Crownlands where added to them.

Reach: Like quite a few people said, it is the most fertile and the second biggest kingdom, it has the second biggest city and quite a few towns, so its population must be quite high and a easy number one.

Population size versus population density is tricky particularly when two of the three largest kingdoms are very sparse, Dorne for example has the lowest density by about 50% IMO but still has more because its the size of the two smallest mainland kingdoms combined

[Alden Rothack]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

• Dorne
• Iron Islands
• Stormlands
• Crownlands
• North
• Vale
• Westerlands
• Riverlands
• Reach

 

The fact that the Iron Islands has a larger population than Dorne (and the fact that Dorne is mostly empty) blows my mind. It should be the either way around.

it is, the Isles has a denser population but Dorne has more due to being nearly thirty times bigger

in absolute terms the Isles and the Crownlands have the least by far, the Reach has the most and the North realistically has the second most despite being the second least densily populated because its 5-6 times the size of the Westerlands, Stormlands or Vale

[Gilbert Green]

42 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

since only one of the two makes any sense I have always presumed he meant population density as Dorne being the least dense makes sense whereas the Iron Islands and the Crownlands and maybe the Stormlands have fewer in absolute terms despite being denser populated.

7 KIngdoms = The North, The Vale, The Stormlands, The Riverlands, The Reach, The Westerlands, Dorne.

Iron Islands and Crownlands are not considered, I think.

I think Dorne is least populous in absolute terms, and the North is the least dense.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

7 KIngdoms = The North, The Vale, The Stormlands, The Riverlands, The Reach, The Westerlands, Dorne.

Iron Islands and Crownlands are not considered, I think.

I think Dorne is least populous in absolute terms, and the North is the least dense.

Doesn't make sense, we are told its Dorne

Even if we put the Riverlands in then still might be true, the Stormlands might have twice the density of Dorne though that would push the others up further and likely double the population of the Seven as a whole.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

15 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

up hills and woods

Good catch. I guess the Iron Islands are bigger than they appear to be in the books.

[Alden Rothack]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Good catch. I guess the Iron Islands are bigger than they appear to be in the books.

they'd have to be as they are tiny on the map. they could be ten times the size they appear to be and still the smallest of the kingdoms

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Doesn't make sense, we are told its Dorne

We were told Dorne was least populous.  If this means "smallest population", then it does not necessarily mean "smallest population density".  In which case the North might have the smallest population density..  Where is the problem?

8 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Even if we put the Riverlands in then still might be true, the Stormlands might have twice the density of Dorne though that would push the others up further and likely double the population of the Seven as a whole.

Did GRRM directly give us a figure for the population of Dorne?   I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

The Stormland are not mostly desert.  I see no issue at all with the Stormlands having twice the population density of Dorne.

[James Arryn]

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

it is, the Isles has a denser population but Dorne has more due to being nearly thirty times bigger

in absolute terms the Isles and the Crownlands have the least by far, the Reach has the most and the North realistically has the second most despite being the second least densily populated because its 5-6 times the size of the Westerlands, Stormlands or Vale

Canada is bigger than the US but ~ 10% of it’s population. 

[Alden Rothack]

25 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

We were told Dorne was least populous.  If this means "smallest population", then it does not necessarily mean "smallest population density".  In which case the North might have the smallest population density..  Where is the problem?

because it does mean smallest population density, it might also mean the smallest population or it might not, the iron islands are denser than Dorne but still have fewer people in absolute terms

25 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Did GRRM directly give us a figure for the population of Dorne?   I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

The Stormland are not mostly desert.  I see no issue at all with the Stormlands having twice the population density of Dorne.

I don't either exept that The Riverlands and the Reach are more fertile plus the Westerlands and the Vale are wealthier suggesting along with the fact that three out of four have cities that they have higher population densities than the Stormlands

I personally think the Stormlands has about the same number of people which is already pretty impressive given that Dorne is over half again the size

 

[Gilbert Green]

15 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

because it does mean smallest population density,

Not according to my 50+ years reading/speaking the English language, nor according to my print copy of the OED.

It (the word "populous") does not (necessarily) refer to population density.

It could merely mean that Dorne has a smaller population than the other 6 kingdoms.

Which does not necessarily say anything about the Iron Islands or the Crownlands.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Dorne has the sparest population not the lowest in absolute terms, being the third largest offsets a good deal of that given that its the size of the Stormlands and Crownlands combined

Even if it is the sparest, the way you calculate sparsity is by taking the whole population, and looking how many people they are per square mile/km, the lower the number, the sparest the population is. So if Dorne is the sparest populated and is not that much bigger then the other regions, then to me it has the smallest population. Also Dorne as only 2 population center's that are of some sort of size, the Shadow City and Planky Town, both seem to be decent size city's but are not on any level close to a population center like King's Landing, that tells me that even if the population is concentrated, it is not concentrated to the point where all the population is in a couple urban centers. I would also had that to me Dorne is only a bit bigger then the Stormlands, but not both the Stormlands and Crownlands, and both are not 75% mountains and desert.

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

these should be the lowest and second lowest due to size

The Crownlands having the biggest city on the continent and a number of big towns like Duskendale and Hull makes me believe that the population of the region is quite high and is most likely the most densely populated area on the continent, so even with its small size it is most likely above Dorne and the Iron Islands, maybe even the Stormlands. And you might be right about the Iron Island but I would say that they is more on the side of Dorne being less populated then the Iron Island but It could go either way.

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

the North is so big that even with the second most dispersed population its still going to the second largest in absolute terms

Again you might be right but since it seems like large area of the North is completely empty, even in the south after a long summer (Look at the early chapters of the journey to Kings Landing, Robert comments on that), So while it as a large population I would say that it still not the most populated by some extent.

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Nope, the sheer size of the North means that the Westerlands would need five times the density to break even

And I would not be surprised if it actually had it, I mean the West should be full of small mining town, access to the Sea and one the biggest towns in the continent, and its lands are said to be hilly but they could still be farmable and support a big population, like a said population density is population divided by area, and the North is bloody huge, so lets say the North has a population density of lets say 20 people per km that would mean that the West would have around 100, not exactly a huge gap (the modern density of the Scottish Highlands for exemple is between 20 and 100, you cant actually see the difference on a map)

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Population size versus population density is tricky particularly when two of the three largest kingdoms are very sparse, Dorne for example has the lowest density by about 50% IMO but still has more because its the size of the two smallest mainland kingdoms combined

Again Im not only looking at the supposed population density but also at the presence of urban centers and how farmable is the land, if you have quite a few town and city's then the chances are that your population is quite high, and out of the 9 regions (7 kingdoms, the Iron Island, the North, the Vale, the Rock, the Reach, the Stormland and Dorne (technically a principality). The you had the Riverlands (traditionnaly its own kingdom but united with the iron island at the time of the conquest) and the Crownlands cut from both the Stormlands and Riverlands in addition to Aegon's original lands) only Dorne, the Stormlands and the Iron Islands dont have a city, the Riverlands get a pass because they have multiples big towns, something the others dont seem to have and more of a Status reason.