How Should Jon Deal with Marsh and the Other Traitors if/when he recovers/is resurrected?

[Craving Peaches]

53 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

A very expansionist interpretation - no wonder the Others are annoyed.

I think you are assuming the Others were somehow provoked and that the men are in the wrong. But I don't think we have enough info to decide whether this is the case. If the vows are to defend the realms of men, choosing not to interpret the Wildling societies beyond the Wall as 'realms of men' seems quite arbitrary to me.

55 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

They did not expand northwards along with wildling settlers

Well previously the Wildlings were not under attack from the Others, were they?

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. The [original & true] purpose of the NW is to defend humanity imo.

That's what the oath should have said then.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s the other way about, it looks like a frontier because that’s where they decided to build the Wall. Maybe we’ll learn exactly why, maybe not. 

Hope we do. I like the ideas that the Other side built it, but either way, walls are built at boundaries.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what you mean here…

The Others are attacking the wildlings, effectively driving them south.

ETA looks like the Others don't want humans in 'their' territory.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because the North remembers. Clearly not as much as they should in general, although I have a feeling the clans remember more than other northerners. They know more about their past and histories and stories than Bowen, despite the fact that he is a northerner himself. Imo.

The time scales are so vast, I don't think anyone has good knowledge of any original oath or interpretation. All we know is the fact that the Watch manned the Wall.

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

The wildlings have settled in the North, a kingdom that the Night's Watch has sworn to protect, so Jon is right.

That is the debateable point, so this is circular.

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

He is doing his duty here, Bowen&Co are the traitors and should be put to death for mutiny and attempted murder.

Whatever.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think you are assuming the Others were somehow provoked and that the men are in the wrong. But I don't think we have enough info to decide whether this is the case.

I'm not assigning right and wrong, but I am assuming the conflict between humans and Others is about territory. Actually I'm assuming a full-on Other invasion southwards.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

If the vows are to defend the realms of men, choosing not to interpret the Wildling societies beyond the Wall as 'realms of men' seems quite arbitrary to me.

The interpretation that 'the realms of men'  == 'wherever men are' logically allows infinite expansion of the realms of men. If that were the case, the early Watch (who knew what the oath was about) wouldn't have settled at the Wall, they'd have moved with the frontier.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well previously the Wildlings were not under attack from the Others, were they?

Why do you think so?

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

That's what the oath should have said then.

Well, I think that’s exactly what it says w/o being a boring one-liner like,
“I swear to protect humanity”. 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Hope we do. I like the ideas that the Other side built it, but either way, walls are built at boundaries.

I could argue that walls are built wherever the people who are building it want the wall to be. What little we know may give us a few clues. The Others emerged from the far north and kept pushing south until the FM and the CotF learned obsidian was an effective weapon against them, and so pushed them back. Maybe the BftD was in the general area where the Wall was built, and the exact location was pick b/c it was the most strategic. The Wall is at the narrowest point between east and west, and where it connects to the Bay of Ice, Bay of Seals, etc. 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The Others are attacking the wildlings, effectively driving them south.

Which is what they did the first time according to the little info we have. I’m sure this info is not 100% accurate but it is what we have atm. 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

ETA looks like the Others don't want humans in 'their' territory.

They didn’t seem to mind them there for millennia. 

19 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The time scales are so vast, I don't think anyone has good knowledge of any original oath or interpretation. All we know is the fact that the Watch manned the Wall.

Well then the best they can do is to act in accordance with what they believe is true purpose of the NW. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

48 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Why do you think so?

Because clearly the Others have not always been attacking the Wildlings because the Wildlings only started fleeing from them recently.

[Craving Peaches]

49 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

logically allows infinite expansion of the realms of men.

Not necessarily because it is generally accepted that some areas are unable to support human life. For example areas of extreme cold or heat. Or areas where there is no food to be found.

[Curled Finger]

Ah crime and punishment, among our favorite topics here.  I doubt there will be time to get a proper trial going as there is a good lot going on in the wake of Jon's announcements.  Wun Wun's in turbo protection mode.  Good men have gone stabby.  Ghost's been locked up.  This is addition to the many things already mentioned.  ***Note: I had to quit liking all the comments for finger cramps***  No, someones will made decisive work of Bowen Marsh and his conspirators whether they were right or wrong.  They are in the minority among people very loyal to Jon Snow.  Killing him so publicly was a truly bone headed idea.  Did they get a raven from Cersei or what?  

We all have our ideas about this scenario and how this might work out.  Some of us are very organized remembering that there are incoming characters (Jeyne Poole and Justin Massey) and pressing situations (Hardhome, Winterfell) as well as those i am not so well organized enough to recall.  Many moving parts, motivations and objectives here.  I cannot help but think Jon's marching orders will stand and forces will eventually be sent to Hardhome and Winterfell and the remaining castles.  Seems to me the Nightfort needs to be made ready for Selyse if not Stannis.  It is not as though Bowen has many loyal to his cause.  There will be no huge showdown or fight.  The small rebel band will be taken and likely killed where they are found unceremoniously in anger.   That will mostly depends on who finds them I suppose.  

Someone will need to be in charge of the Nightswatch while Jon is incapacitated which I think is the larger question.  Who will keep the Queen's Men and/or Melisandre in check as well as the rowdier Freefolk?   The rowdier brothers?  Who will convince the Clansmen to allow a wet nurse to stay on at Castle Black instead of allowing them to return home with baby Monster?  Who will know what to do with the money when it comes in from the Iron Bank?  The folks, if any return from Hardhome?  I don't see anyone among any of them who can lead this massive group of diverse people except Jon Snow.  Maybe if they faction off for a bit Castle Black will be manageable.  

[Nathan Stark]

On 2/8/2023 at 4:06 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe the BftD was in the general area where the Wall was built

I think the Battle for the Dawn was faught at the location where Winterfell was built. Thus explaining the name, Winterfell is where winter literally fell.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Killing him so publicly was a truly bone headed idea.  Did they get a raven from Cersei or what?  

My theory is that they originally planned to dispose of Jon more discreetly, but after Jon announced his plan to march they had to do it then and there or he'd be out of their reach.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

My theory is that they originally planned to dispose of Jon more discreetly, but after Jon announced his plan to march they had to do it then and there or he'd be out of their reach.

Their plan became futile at that point don't you think?  How stupid was that?  Surely they knew they had far less support than Jon.  What do you imagine they think will happen?

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think the Battle for the Dawn was faught at the location where Winterfell was built. Thus explaining the name, Winterfell is where winter literally fell.

You are not alone in this thinking (and it's good to see you!) Lots of potentially very magical places in the north.  I would be very interested in Melisandre's vibes were she ever to visit Winterfell.  Back in the day some believed that Winter was an Ice dragon who fell on the spot that is now Winterfell thus the name.  All good stuff around that place.   The coming battle for dawn may be in any number of places, though I assume it will be on or near The Wall, nothing says it won't be elsewhere.  

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Their plan became futile at that point don't you think?  How stupid was that?  Surely they knew they had far less support than Jon.  What do you imagine they think will happen?

It was a stupid plan anyway but in terms of incriminating yourself it would be less stupid to say, kill Jon while he was alone asleep in his quarters then kill him in front of tons of people.

[Springwatch]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:06 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I could argue that walls are built wherever the people who are building it want the wall to be. What little we know may give us a few clues. The Others emerged from the far north and kept pushing south until the FM and the CotF learned obsidian was an effective weapon against them, and so pushed them back. Maybe the BftD was in the general area where the Wall was built, and the exact location was pick b/c it was the most strategic. The Wall is at the narrowest point between east and west, and where it connects to the Bay of Ice, Bay of Seals, etc. 

The Wall is so very icy, and repels dragons, and seems (to Ygritte) to hate the human wildling climbers so much that it shakes them off. We haven't seen any practitioners of ice magic, I don't think? But the idea of ice magic belonging to the spooks of the far north just really appeals.

On 2/8/2023 at 9:06 PM, kissdbyfire said:

They didn’t seem to mind them there for millennia.

My guess is they do, though they may have been inactive/unaware for most of the time.

There's a quote from Dany about being plagued by ants across a wall, which would be really cool if it foreshadowed some giant hive-mind consciousness in the north:

Where did all the ants come from? Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly. She ran a heand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck. She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet. There were so many...

It turned out that their anthill was on the other side of her wall. She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her. To them these tumbledown stones must loom as large as the Wall of Westeros.

Ants have been used to represent human beings a few times already (tournament of gnats, the armies of the lords declarant).

ETA the ants comparison looks like a winner: Mel says, "all men are ants before the fiery face of god". A very odd metaphor, but fits with other ant comparisons from a lordly, god-like perspective (Alayne at the Eyrie, King Joff at his nameday tourney).

On 2/8/2023 at 9:10 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Because clearly the Others have not always been attacking the Wildlings because the Wildlings only started fleeing from them recently.

Never say never. Attacks could fade into folk memory after only a hundred years or so. And the spooky nature of the Haunted Forest is never forgotten completely: The northerners remember the tales. The watchmen find the supernatural easy to believe (the instinctive terror of Gared, and Lord Mormont seriously sharing his fears and dreams with Tyrion). The wildlings burn their dead (I think? **), but also found some old graves to dig up (with superstitious horror) - so that implies that at some period not too distant it was ok to bury the dead (recent enough that the graves haven't disappeared completely) - but later it became imperative to burn the dead, to stop them rising.

Also the wildlings' great invasions across the Wall are pretty desperate ventures, with small chance of success. There could have been some desperate need, similar to the current one.

ETA ** burning is correct: Mormont says so, Jarl is burned, Ygritte is burned etc

On 2/8/2023 at 9:11 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Not necessarily because it is generally accepted that some areas are unable to support human life. For example areas of extreme cold or heat. Or areas where there is no food to be found.

Well people do make claims anyway... but the main point is you don't keep your border force in the middle.

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was a stupid plan anyway but in terms of incriminating yourself it would be less stupid to say, kill Jon while he was alone asleep in his quarters then kill him in front of tons of people.

I hope GRRM is planning something better than stupid, and Bowen and crew don't have the physical courage for a suicide mission. They must assume they have enough support, though they might be wrong. At worst, I think they'll be seized and imprisoned, and the Watchmen will have another fit of democracy and sit around discussing till Winter comes.