NBA - the King passes Cap, but his team are still crap.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

When is Wiggins due back? Maybe he was the underappreciated glue last year (I know he made the all star team but loads mocked that call).

Wiggins does do a lot for the team, but his absence isn't really what's derailing them. The two things that stand out to me are the punch and the lack of development of their young players. Green has been the emotional leader of the team for a long time now and that may be finished. I've heard reports that a number of the guys who weren't a part of the original run have tuned him out which greatly diminishes his value. He really can't get on players for slacking anymore. Idk if that's impacting the development of their younger players, but they've clearly failed there. The guys who got serious playing time in the playoffs have not taken the next step and Wiseman so far has been a complete bust. The Warriors would be crazy dangerous if they had taken Ball instead of him.

[Wilbur]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

...Green has been the emotional leader of the team for a long time now and that may be finished. I've heard reports that a number of the guys who weren't a part of the original run have tuned him out which greatly diminishes his value. He really can't get on players for slacking anymore...

There is a type of player personality for which Green is the Platonic Ideal, the guy or girl who knows what should happen and how to do it, but for whatever reason doesn't really impress out on the court.  Let's call the player "That Guy."  Maybe he or she is older and lost their burst, maybe they lack athleticism, whatever.  It isn't that they don't belong out on the court, but they don't seem currently to produce the counting stat results that garner current respect.

And because of their outspoken personality, a lot of the other players, particularly younger players or players who didn't play with the team when that guy or girl were key elements of success, those other players have no time for That Guy.  I have played with or coached That Guy, I maybe even was That Guy, so the Warriors situation resembles the That Guy scenario to me.

In the end, the That Guy player changes from a positive to a negative on a team.  That Guy used to come up with the contested rebound or the key stop or the clutch free throws or the connective passing that made the team hum.  But now That Guy runs his or her mouth to try and get the rest of the team to operate efficiently or to a standard or playbook that That Guy has in his or her head.  And the new guys or new girls don't see any reason to listen to That Guy, so it wears on the team as a whole.

I suspect that maybe Draymond has become That Guy.  Punching a teammate isn't going to enhance the utility of That Guy, either.

[Proudfeet]

17 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Thompson, Green and Poole all had good games, but they also all had some really rough stretches where they were nonfactors or even liabilities.

I think Poole needs reps to maintain his form, but he doesn't get enough with Curry and Thompson both healthy. And he's a defensive liability which makes it even harder for him to get minutes. His biggest contribution last playoffs was him getting the Warriors their seeding in the regular season. He became more and more of a non-factor as the playoffs went on.

Really curious to see what the Warriors do this offseason. Would they part with Thompson to get under the cap and hope that Poole recreates his form instead of it just being a hot stretch? Or do they continue going all in, out of loyalty and maybe a lack of alternative options? Or maybe they can get both Green and Thompson back on lower salaries? Not sure what the CBA allows.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

At least suspend him and train him ffs.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

We have more clarity on Ja's situation now that the league has suspended him for eight games, though some of it appears to be retroactively. My understanding is he can come back next week if he's deemed ready by the team.

Been holding off on this comment, but I think they're equally as concerned about him having a real drinking problem as they are of some of these other incidents (which to be clear also put his life at risk). The video came out at five in the morning at a strip club. I've never been to one, but I loved to party when I was the same age as Ja and if you're at the club that late, doing that incredibly dumb shit, you've been hitting the bottle hard. The image of him chugging from a handle on the plane with the quote that he's taking a shot because he's happy to wake up only hammers that concern home. 

[DanteGabriel]

I am really enjoying Blake Griffin as a Celtic. Hustle plays, taking charges, the occasional timely jumper. In everything I've read, he's been a great hit in the locker room too.

Edited March 16, 2023 by DanteGabriel

[DireWolfSpirit]

Joker is just a nth of a percentage point off averaging a triple double with 9.9 assists currently.

That with the efficiency 63% FG average, 40% from 3, 80% FT and Denver best record in the West.

Pretty dificult to imagine a more valuable player, its gotta be him or Giannis.

[Ramsay B.]

No Embiid in there? 

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

No Embiid in there? 

Yeah Embiid and Tatum are both having great seasons as well. 

I guess this season my MVP vote would go-

1. Joker

2. Giannis

3. Embiid

4. Tatum

Edited March 19, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[BigFatCoward]

Embiid was bookies favourite last time I checked. 

[Relic]

Embiid is closing the season on a heater, and the Sixers have won 8 in a row. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Embiid was bookies favourite last time I checked. 

Yep, it switched in the last week or so.

For context, Embiid is averaging close to four points more than Shaq's best career year scoring wise. He's also a truly elite defensive player. A month ago Jokic probably had the best argument, but Embiid deserves to be the betting favorite now, especially since it seems some voters just don't want to give Jokic the award for a third straight year when next to no one thinks he's been the best player in the league over that timespan. 

[baxus]

Don't get me wrong, despite being Jokic's compatriot, I'm not saying that Jokic is a clear cut winner and that it would be wrong if anyone else wins it. It's just that some of the arguments being thrown around are logically flawed.

• Last year, Jokic was given a "Nuggets are 6th in the west, how do you give it to him" and now that Nuggets are leading the west all of a sudden that's not as important.
• All the "what did the Nuggets do in the playoffs?" is plain stupid. This is an award for the most valuable player in the league UNTIL playoffs. There's a separate MVP title for finals.
• And the whole "but Jokic has two already, let's give one to Embiid (for example)" is stupid. Whoever gets is should get it based on their performance over 82 league matches. Who has how many is not a factor. It's not a most improved player award so that previous season (or seasons) should be considered.
• "Voter fatigue" is a bullshit argument. Giving an MVP award to someone because you're bored of giving it to the same person multiple times devalues the award and turns it into participation trophy
• All of a sudden, stats are not important and Jokic was flat out accused of stat-padding
• Some people went so far to say Jokic is going to get it because he's white.

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember stat-padding or Thunder position in the standings being a factor in deciding when Westbrook won it. And just imagine the shitstorm if someone said: "Westbrook/Lebron/Kobe/Giannis/Durant etc. will only get it because he's black".

If the parameters for awarding the trophy are not as well defined as they should be, have some people sit down and clear that mess up. If people think that you need more awards, like in NHL for example, then add those. If something else is the issue, then fix that. This whole mess isn't doing any favours to any of the candidates. Will Jokic get it because he's white, or will Embiid/GIannis win it because someone had pity on him for not having an MVP trophy until now? The whole conversation has been derailed into plain stupidity.

[Proudfeet]

I've said it multiple times, but it bears repeating. Its a pageant. Don't take it too seriously unless you're the player or team where it directly affects the salary.

Westbrook got it over Harden because he got a couple more rebounds, not because they were substantively more important, but because averaging a triple double was shiny and pretty.

Jokic and Embiid were pretty much tied for the past two seasons. I feel that Jokic got it because he was a fresh look the first year and also Embiid has availability issues which seemed to be the tiebreaker.

Anyway, point is, it is up to the votes to decide what they feel is important. It doesn't actually mean anything, and usually all the candidates are at least deserving. In terms of awards, MVP is also better than All-Star because there is only one winner. Rather than saying someone deserves All-Star but never pointing out who they would replace, MVP is very clear on who the alternative candidate you feel is less deserving is.

*Also, I don't know about stat padding, but from what I've seen, Malone seems to play Jokic an awful lot with the starters. Maybe it is to maximise his value, but it's interesting because I thought he could prop up the bench and the rest of the starters can help his back up for a more balanced approach. I'd be very interested to see how Jokic's shared starters/bench minutes compare to other stars. It stood out to me but I could be wrong.

[Rhom]

We still having this argument?

Shaq and Kobe combined have as many MVPs as Jokić.  (And Steve Nash.)  

There are a lot of reasons that can happen.  Who you are playing against… Who you are playing with… How the voters feel that day…

In the end, I just don’t put a lot of stock in it.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Stat padding is the worst argument because Jokic is elite efficient. Its not like hes chucking at a 45% rate and only hitting 2/3's of his FT's. If anything, at his efficiency id be happy seeing him shoot a few more times a quarter. Also rebounds and assists, those are measurements of ways you are making the rest of team better.

A efficient guy averaging the triple double has to be a top contender for the MVP.

As for ECF contenders Id take Giannis over Embiid. Just a thought experiment, swap the two players to each team, I think Philly improves more than Milwaukee in that hypothetical.

[BigFatCoward]

25 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Stat padding is the worst argument because Jokic is elite efficient. Its not like hes chucking at a 45% rate and only hitting 2/3's of his FT's. If anything, at his efficiency id be happy seeing him shoot a few more times a quarter. Also rebounds and assists, those are measurements of ways you are making the rest of team better.

A efficient guy averaging the triple double has to be a top contender for the MVP.

As for ECF contenders Id take Giannis over Embiid. Just a thought experiment, swap the two players to each team, I think Philly improves more than Milwaukee in that hypothetical.

I can't say i fully understand advanced stats, but Jokic is top in every single one last time a checked, that has to count for something. 

Interesting to see that the top 6 players in PER are not American, it would be much better if the ASG was USA v Rest of the World.  Is that just an statistical anomaly, or is it a feature of how the rest of the world plays the game?

Edited March 20, 2023 by BigFatCoward

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I've said it multiple times, but it bears repeating. Its a pageant. Don't take it too seriously

Right, it's an award handed out by sports media. Not by other players, not by coaches, but freaking sports "reporters". 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

34 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Interesting to see that the top 6 players in PER are not American, it would be much better if the ASG was USA v Rest of the World.  Is that just an statistical anomaly, or is it a feature of how the rest of the world plays the game?

It’s a fun idea, but Idk how the World team would function. Too many of the top players are bigs and the guard play really falls off after Luka and SGA. You’d need to play 3v3 or 21 to make it interesting because their second unit would get wrecked if they were playing a standard game.

[Maithanet]

The MVP award often goes guys who are better in the regular season than the postseason.  But it is the guys who are great in the postseason are the ones we remember as all time greats, regardless of how many MVPs they won.  Sometimes this discrepancy is a function of guys having a game better suited for the postseason (Lebron) or guys that are just phoning it in during the regular season (Shaq).  But if you have too much success in the regular season and nothing to show in the postseason, people will start to ding you, and I think Jokic is coming up on that point.