Could Tywin have reigned Joffrey in?

[Craving Peaches]

Assuming he lived? He says something about Joffrey needing a 'sharp lesson'. Personally I don't know whether his attempts to discipline Joffrey would have been successful. Joffrey only had a few years to go until his majority, and some of his negative personality traits seemed to be innate anyway (the cat incident springs to mind). What do you think? Would Tywin have been able to discipline Joffrey and make him into, if not a better person, at least someone who isn't openly displaying psychopathic/narcissistic tendencies?

[kissdbyfire]

I don’t think so, for the reasons you’ve already brought up. And upon realising this, I think Tywin would have had no qualms about allowing Joffrey to be the victim of a fatal “accident”. 

[astarkchoice]

Still a violent wee sociopath but tywin would have reigned him in at least so he hid it better! Like his grandad hed have learned to keep the monsterous shit hidden 

[sifth]

It’s rather funny, because Tywin himself has a lot in common with Joffrey and his love of showing no mercy and killing innocent people. Tywin however is much more wiser, because he knows there’s a time and place for it. Tywin knows when he can get away with stuff and when he can’t and how to hide his tracks at certain times.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Personally I don't know whether his attempts to discipline Joffrey would have been successful.

I wonder what “sharp lesson” Tywin intended to give Joffrey.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

I dont think so, he might have had a chance if he was there immediatly after the death of Robert, but Joff had a taste of complete power with is incompetent mother, so Tywin would have maybe been capable of reigning im in for a time, but in the end Joffrey would have gone back to is old way after the regency or at best when Tywin eventually dies.

[Alden Rothack]

8 minutes ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I dont think so, he might have had a chance if he was there immediatly after the death of Robert, but Joff had a taste of complete power with is incompetent mother, so Tywin would have maybe been capable of reigning im in for a time, but in the end Joffrey would have gone back to is old way after the regency or at best when Tywin eventually dies.

twenty to one Joffrey dies before Tywin in this situation

[Vaegon the dragonless]

24 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

twenty to one Joffrey dies before Tywin in this situation

Oh I agree big time that Tywin was already planning to make sure Joffrey's reign was a short one, I tend to agree to the theory that Tywin was at least a far hand in the death of Joffrey in the actual timeline.

[Alden Rothack]

11 minutes ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

Oh I agree big time that Tywin was already planning to make sure Joffrey's reign was a short one, I tend to agree to the theory that Tywin was at least a far hand in the death of Joffrey in the actual timeline.

I think he was aware that plans were afoot against him and did nothing

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I think any attempt at reigning Joffrey in would merely be a temporary success. And it doesn't help that he's surrounded by kingsguard members who would bend over for him. That blind obedience fuels him further, and Cersei supplied him with it.

[Alden Rothack]

19 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I think any attempt at reigning Joffrey in would merely be a temporary success. And it doesn't help that he's surrounded by kingsguard members who would bend over for him. That blind obedience fuels him further, and Cersei supplied him with it.

Yup. first step in controling Joffrey has to be sending his mother back to the Rock and making sure shes stays there no matter what

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

3 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Yup. first step in controling Joffrey has to be sending his mother back to the Rock and making sure shes stays there no matter what

I can already see her "victimized" reaction.  "It's because I'm a woman, isn't it??"

I can't imagine how long it would take to fix the mess she created.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I can already see her "victimized" reaction.  "It's because I'm a woman, isn't it??"

I can't imagine how long it would take to fix the mess she created.

Theres more than one way to skin a lioness

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I wonder what “sharp lesson” Tywin intended to give Joffrey.

Something along the lines of raping the kid I suppose.

 

50 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I think any attempt at reigning Joffrey in would merely be a temporary success. And it doesn't help that he's surrounded by kingsguard members who would bend over for him. That blind obedience fuels him further, and Cersei supplied him with it.

Get rid of mom for sure, but bring back dad too. Don't call him dad but don't call the other kg either, Jaime would be good for him.

And the main, get rid of Sansa. He acts different when hes around her, in contrast to Marge

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

And the main, get rid of Sansa. He acts different when hes around her, in contrast to Marge

I've always assumed he'd eventually act cruelly towards Margaery as well. If not physically, then verbally or mentally. Though probably not as regularly as he did with Sansa. Margaery can't change him, so her charms would only work for so long. (You can't manipulate a broken boy into a good man. Someone like Joffrey needs major therapy.)  If Joffrey had lived and Cersei wasn't imprisoned, she would do her best to pit Joffrey against Margaery. Although, I could see him telling off Cersei, because he might be able to see through her bs. But I agree with Sansa's prediction:

Quote

"She is so brave, Sansa thought, galloping after her . . . and yet, her doubts still gnawed at her. Ser Loras was a great knight, all agreed. But Joffrey had other Kingsguard, and gold cloaks and red cloaks besides, and when he was older he would command armies of his own. Aegon the Unworthy had never harmed Queen Naerys, perhaps for fear of their brother the Dragonknight . . . but when another of his Kingsguard fell in love with one of his mistresses, the king had taken both their heads.

Ser Loras is a Tyrell, Sansa reminded herself. That other knight was only a Toyne. His brothers had no armies, no way to avenge him but with swords. Yet the more she thought about it all, the more she wondered. Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps as long as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does . . . The realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be war inside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red."

 

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Assuming he lived? He says something about Joffrey needing a 'sharp lesson'. Personally I don't know whether his attempts to discipline Joffrey would have been successful. Joffrey only had a few years to go until his majority, and some of his negative personality traits seemed to be innate anyway (the cat incident springs to mind). What do you think? Would Tywin have been able to discipline Joffrey and make him into, if not a better person, at least someone who isn't openly displaying psychopathic/narcissistic tendencies?

Tywin had no trouble sending Joff to bed when he mouthed off at the small council meeting. But ultimately, just telling Joff "no, you can't" is a losing strategy in the long run and only builds resentment and hostility. Both Petyr and Margaery demonstrate the right way to manipulate Joff: get in the water and splash about so that he makes the decision you want him to make. And with Margaery, you add a good dose of sexual innuendo to wrap him around your, sorry, little finger.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I've always assumed he'd eventually act cruelly towards Margaery as well. If not physically, then verbally or mentally. Though probably not as regularly as he did with Sansa. Margaery can't change him, so her charms would only work for so long. (You can't manipulate a broken boy into a good man. Someone like Joffrey needs major therapy.)  If Joffrey had lived and Cersei wasn't imprisoned, she would do her best to pit Joffrey against Margaery. Although, I could see him telling off Cersei, because he might be able to see through her bs. But I agree with Sansa's prediction:

 

For sure, and I can totally get why Sansa thinks that because he's the worst to her. (Look at your dads cap, get the greatest warriors to beat her, kiss the sword that may touch Robb, threaten indefinite rape on her wedding night, etc)  He couldn't be worse.

But he wasnt always like that, maybe he was hiding it, but I think he was really crest fallen over Sansa, probably always was. Dude was a real gentleman, or better yet a chivalrous prince, until the Mycah incident. Then she saw him weak and afraid. I think after that he was embarrassed, didn't really know how to cope but wasn't all classical Joff with it yet. That's until her dad pulled up, told him that's no king and heavily implied his white nuncle is actually his dad. (Has Joff ever heard this rumor before? Has he ever felt it? What a terrible and gross thing to hear, when he expected his Hand to verify his kingship.) I think this really pushed Joff off the edge and everytime he saw his kid he felt not just embarrassment but straight rage.

So the 3 things Sansa brought that Marge didn't is, seeing him defeated, heavy beef with her dad (and brother), and completely and utterly smitten because although Marge is a 10 outta 10 Sansa's a 20

[Curled Finger]

It is interesting Tyrion seemed to be able to smack the little bastard and get away with it.  That is, Joffrey allowed him to do it.  This says something about maybe the shock of Joffrey having any discipline at all?  He is certainly angry, but takes the physical assault without any real repercussion.  And there is that curious scene where by simple virtue of the Hound agreeing with Sansa that it is bad luck to drown Dontos on his name day that Joffrey magnanimously appoints the hapless knight his fool.  Sandor Clegane, present in both situations, seems to have some sway over Joffrey though I cannot say what.  Joffrey does appear to be able to respond appropriately at least not viciously in all situations.  I grant this behavior is rare and his mother definitely needs to be removed as far as possible from him if he is to be impressed in any meaningful way by anyone.  

Tywin is a lot smarter than I am and more rigid in his ideas regarding family.  Best I could do with Joffrey is a good hobbling and gagging.  Tywin would find some clever way to send him off for training in virtual exile while he ruled until he had Tommen perfectly groomed as a successor then have Joffrey killed in some heroic way and make a legend of the brave young king in waiting.  Looks like although I do believe Tywin could handle Joffrey I don't believe he could have made him what Tywin would have wanted him to be.  There were better alternatives.  

[Hugorfonics]

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It is interesting Tyrion seemed to be able to smack the little bastard and get away with it.  That is, Joffrey allowed him to do it.  This says something about maybe the shock of Joffrey having any discipline at all?  He is certainly angry, but takes the physical assault without any real repercussion.  And there is that curious scene where by simple virtue of the Hound agreeing with Sansa that it is bad luck to drown Dontos on his name day that Joffrey magnanimously appoints the hapless knight his fool.  Sandor Clegane, present in both situations, seems to have some sway over Joffrey though I cannot say what.  Joffrey does appear to be able to respond appropriately at least not viciously in all situations. 

Yeah, I agree. I think it's also important to keep in mind that he's what, 13 or so?

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Tywin is a lot smarter than I am

Nah

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

and more rigid in his ideas regarding family. 

Well I'd hope so lol

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Best I could do with Joffrey is a good hobbling and gagging. 

Lmao

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Tywin would find some clever way to send him off for training in virtual exile while he ruled until he had Tommen perfectly groomed as a successor then have Joffrey killed in some heroic way and make a legend of the brave young king in waiting.  Looks like although I do believe Tywin could handle Joffrey I don't believe he could have made him what Tywin would have wanted him to be.  There were better alternatives.  

I don't think Tywin is capable of kinslaying, because if he was it would have been done.

Dothraki leave their dwarf babies in the wilderness, it's not that Sunset folk are that much more humane or live so luxurious, it's that theyre superstitious as shit.

Tywin supposedly cares about the kingdoms legacy, ok. But he definitely cares about the Lannister one. He knows what the Imp can do, I mean his sister straight up tells him that so he didn't speak to her for like a decade plus. If Tywins fears of Tyrions debauchery are real, then my god man, do something about it! And yet even when the gods hand him his large head on a silver platter he still takes moves to send him to the wall and clean of this kinslaying curse.

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin supposedly cares about the kingdoms legacy, ok. But he definitely cares about the Lannister one. He knows what the Imp can do, I mean his sister straight up tells him that so he didn't speak to her for like a decade plus. If Tywins fears of Tyrions debauchery are real, then my god man, do something about it! And yet even when the gods hand him his large head on a silver platter he still takes moves to send him to the wall and clean of this kinslaying curse.

+1. For all Tywin's public dislike of Tyrion's debauched behavior he never actually tries to stop him.