The Mummer's Dragon candidates.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

What are your thoughts on the "perfumed seneschal"?

I always thought it was the Selaesori Qhoran:

Quote

Her name means Fragrant Steward, but Tyrion Lannister nicknames her the Stinky Steward.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have never given Quaithe’s warning much thought, and by ‘mystery’ about the identities involved even if some seem to be fairly obvious. That said, there’s two things I’ve always thought are interesting…

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

I am disappointed the others are not capitalized.  Then again, Quaithe is a jerk. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

The real twist will be Daenerys is the mummers dragon, and the final lie she will slay. She’ll find out Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife and Jon is legitimate. The lie being the she is the Targaryen heir. And her acting as if she was the true heir was the mummer’s farce.

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I don't think Dany is the Mummer's Dragon, I'm saying she should beware of a situation where she is being set up as the hero in a mummer's farce, facing a threat that is more of a distraction than anything else. That basically her true enemy is not the one she thinks it is. There will be a 'real' dragon she has to face - but only once she gets past having to deal with some kind of 'fake' enemy. A mummer's dragon stands between her and her real enemy.

 

From my take on the structure of Quaithe's warnings as a series of opposites, posted earlier, Dany can be said to be participating in a mummer's farce in Meereen, playing a role as queen of a people who don't love her, making concessions that go against her principles. Marrying Hizdahr (or a potential mummer's dragon) is part of that farce. The language used in those chapters (floppy ears etc.), the shavepates who wear the helms in the shape of beasts, invisible "Sons of the Harpy" are all part of this "theatre." At the same time, Dany is a hero, not to the citizens / masters of Slaver's Bay, but to her freedmen and other slaves hoping to attain freedom.

Meereen and its associated conflicts present an obstacle to Dany's cause in Westeros. There is the issue of timing as well as the problem of a reduction in the number of her armed forces. Unsullied are being killed, some of the hostages are already dead, a war has kicked off where more will die. It's a repeat scenario with fAegon as the mummer's dragon. So yes, a "mummer's dragon" stands between her and her cause. 

If Quaithe is trying to warn her of a "true enemy," she's being rather cryptic about it. She offers no information on why these people are a danger to Dany and makes no mention of whoever the end-game enemy is. Dany would interpret her warnings in relation to gaining the Iron Throne because that's Dany's goal. She views all those obstacles and symbolic people mentioned as a hinderance to her cause.

Readers think Dany's ultimate goal is to aid in the fight against the Others but Dany is not aware that such a threat exists in her homeland at this point in time. We all speculate on how Dany wasting time in Slaver's Bay and potentially fighting fAegon will negatively impact the fight against the Others. That said, Euron might be the ultimate "fake dragon" she may have to overcome before applying herself to any other cause, Iron Throne and Others inclusive. 

 

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Evolett said:

 

From my take on the structure of Quaithe's warnings as a series of opposites, posted earlier, Dany can be said to be participating in a mummer's farce in Meereen, playing a role as queen of a people who don't love her, making concessions that go against her principles. Marrying Hizdahr (or a potential mummer's dragon) is part of that farce. The language used in those chapters (floppy ears etc.), the shavepates who wear the helms in the shape of beasts, invisible "Sons of the Harpy" are all part of this "theatre." At the same time, Dany is a hero, not to the citizens / masters of Slaver's Bay, but to her freedmen and other slaves hoping to attain freedom.

Meereen and its associated conflicts present an obstacle to Dany's cause in Westeros. There is the issue of timing as well as the problem of a reduction in the number of her armed forces. Unsullied are being killed, some of the hostages are already dead, a war has kicked off where more will die. It's a repeat scenario with fAegon as the mummer's dragon. So yes, a "mummer's dragon" stands between her and her cause. 

If Quaithe is trying to warn her of a "true enemy," she's being rather cryptic about it. She offers no information on why these people are a danger to Dany and makes no mention of whoever the end-game enemy is. Dany would interpret her warnings in relation to gaining the Iron Throne because that's Dany's goal. She views all those obstacles and symbolic people mentioned as a hinderance to her cause.

Readers think Dany's ultimate goal is to aid in the fight against the Others but Dany is not aware that such a threat exists in her homeland at this point in time. We all speculate on how Dany wasting time in Slaver's Bay and potentially fighting fAegon will negatively impact the fight against the Others. That said, Euron might be the ultimate "fake dragon" she may have to overcome before applying herself to any other cause, Iron Throne and Others inclusive. 

 

I really enjoyed your take on Quaithe's warning, but I see it a little differently.  How about Quaithe, as this is the buzz kill I am focusing on, thinks Mereen is exactly where Dany should be?  She thinks Dany should be breaking the chains that bind the slaves and righting the long held wrongs in the cultures of Essos.  I mean, I can see this being a big freaking deal in any world.  Was I some freaky mask wearing prophetess I would certainly think that more important than going to a comparatively free world.  

Maybe that's why "the others" isn't capitalized?  Quaithe doesn't know about them.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The real twist will be Daenerys is the mummers dragon, and the final lie she will slay. She’ll find out Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife and Jon is legitimate. The lie being the she is the Targaryen heir. And her acting as if she was the true heir was the mummer’s farce.

While that is really an interesting take, I don't think Quaithe is that smart or knowing.  I thinks she's only got this regional knowledge and interest, much in the way Bloodraven doesn't seem to even know about Dany.  

[Evolett]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I really enjoyed your take on Quaithe's warning, but I see it a little differently.  How about Quaithe, as this is the buzz kill I am focusing on, thinks Mereen is exactly where Dany should be?  She thinks Dany should be breaking the chains that bind the slaves and righting the long held wrongs in the cultures of Essos. 

Certainly a possibility and probably hinted at in:

Quote

What do you want of me, Quaithe?” Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes. “To show you the way.” “I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow.”

In the sense that Dany must first deviate from the path and take a detour to right the wrongs perpetuated by her ancestors, yes. 

Thinking about it ... Quaithe also wears that mask so she may be part of the "mummer's farce" 

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Evolett said:

Certainly a possibility and probably hinted at in:

In the sense that Dany must first deviate from the path and take a detour to right the wrongs perpetuated by her ancestors, yes. 

Thinking about it ... Quaithe also wears that mask so she may be part of the "mummer's farce" 

You deserve better than a simple like for that!

[Phylum of Alexandria]

19 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Certainly a possibility and probably hinted at in:

Quote

What do you want of me, Quaithe?” Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes. “To show you the way.” “I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow.”

Speaking of passing beneath the shadow, Quaithe tells Dany that she will find truth in Asshai. Maybe it's truth about the Long Night, but almost certainly some truth relating to dragons. But until that is formally unmasked in the story, Quaithe is remaining mum. 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

5 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Speaking of passing beneath the shadow, Quaithe tells Dany that she will find truth in Asshai. Maybe it's truth about the Long Night, but almost certainly some truth relating to dragons. But until that is formally unmasked in the story, Quaithe is remaining mum. 

I doubt Dany is going to Asshai unless Drogon rescues her from the Dothraki and she flies there. If she goes back to Slavers Bay she’ll never go to Asshai IMO. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

I doubt Dany is going to Asshai unless Drogon rescues her from the Dothraki and she flies there. If she goes back to Slavers Bay she’ll never go to Asshai IMO. 

Not physically, no. But we will discover the truth of Asshai one way or another, whether it's via Marwin, or a Bran-vision, or a peek into a glass candle, etc.

[Evolett]

12 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Speaking of passing beneath the shadow, Quaithe tells Dany that she will find truth in Asshai. Maybe it's truth about the Long Night, but almost certainly some truth relating to dragons. But until that is formally unmasked in the story, Quaithe is remaining mum. 

I'm thinking Dany might learn about the Long Night and perhaps Asshai from Moqorro. He seems well positioned to meet her and since he knows his lore on "the Great Other," is a likely candidate to impart that knowledge. 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Varys, I think is the perfumed seneschal. The guy feels like the most dangerous person in the series. 

That is not particularly likely in context since Quaithe seems to not making prophecies as such there, but rather using the glasscandle she also seems to be using to communicate with Daenerys to figure who is on the way to her right now.

Her warnings/announcements only seem to refer to things that are more or less immediate, and not TWoW or ADoS territory, unlike the prophecies of the Undying (earlier versions of the chapter included announcements about Marwyn but were deleted when George decided the guy would show up later - the same way Moqorro was added when he was added to the plot as an apparently important character). While Varys might eventually be a guy Dany should avoid ... at this time he is not yet her enemy.

It strikes one as much more likely that this is an obvious warning referring to Reznak mo Reznak - who clearly was the brain behind Hizdahr's short-lived government.

The Stinky Steward seems to be more like a diversion there since both Tyrion and Victarion and Moqorro were announced independently. So why should Dany care about the ship?

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

What are your thoughts on the "perfumed seneschal"? Do you believe that is Varys as well?

I don't know, as I said, I’ve never given it much thought. When I read that when Dance came out I thought it was the ‘obvious’ candidate, Reznak. I suppose I still do? Probably? But I’ve only read those chapters once back when the book was published, I don’t know whether I’d still think that now…

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The real twist will be Daenerys is the mummers dragon, and the final lie she will slay. She’ll find out Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife and Jon is legitimate. The lie being the she is the Targaryen heir. And her acting as if she was the true heir was the mummer’s farce.

That really makes no sense since the Undying made the prophecy about the Slayer of Lies, and there the cloth dragon (which is later dubbed the mummer's dragon) is clearly only the second lie Dany is supposed to slay.

Also, of course, there is literally no chance that the Undying - or the powers who grant magical people a glimpse into the future - give a fig about who 'the rightful heir to the Iron Throne' is. That is a political question and there is no right answer to it.

Aerys II - who was the rightful king - did pass over Rhaegar's children Rhaenys and Aegon after the Trident, naming Viserys his new heir. How could Jon Snow then be the rightful heir? Even more so - what kind of story do we need to have most or all of Westeros actually believe Jon Snow is a trueborn Targaryen? He doesn't look the part and Aegon is going to make everybody more than wary of hidden Targaryens.

In a sense, the litmus test for a Jon Snow campaign for the Iron Throne will be Alys Rivers' son during the reign of Aegon III. He effectively is Jon Snow. The posthumous child of a prince born in the middle of nowhere with the mother claiming he was born in wedlock. How many people will rally behind him who, if you follow the Green ideology and view the Great Council as a binding precedent, would be the rightful king?

Somehow I think he won't be supported by half the Realm ... even if he has a dragon.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That really makes no sense since the Undying made the prophecy about the Slayer of Lies, and there the cloth dragon (which is later dubbed the mummer's dragon) is clearly only the second lie Dany is supposed to slay.

Also, of course, there is literally no chance that the Undying - or the powers who grant magical people a glimpse into the future - give a fig about who 'the rightful heir to the Iron Throne' is. That is a political question and there is no right answer to it.

Aerys II - who was the rightful king - did pass over Rhaegar's children Rhaenys and Aegon after the Trident, naming Viserys his new heir. How could Jon Snow then be the rightful heir? Even more so - what kind of story do we need to have most or all of Westeros actually believe Jon Snow is a trueborn Targaryen? He doesn't look the part and Aegon is going to make everybody more than wary of hidden Targaryens.

In a sense, the litmus test for a Jon Snow campaign for the Iron Throne will be Alys Rivers' son during the reign of Aegon III. He effectively is Jon Snow. The posthumous child of a prince born in the middle of nowhere with the mother claiming was born in wedlock. How many people will rally behind him who, if you follow the Green ideology and view the Great Council as a binding precedent, would be the rightful king?

Somehow I think he won't be supported by half the Realm ... even if he has a dragon.

Some characters will bring proof, and I think Daenerys will acknowledge him as a Targaryen (maybe not a legitimate one) but she’ll back him as being Rhaegar’s. And even then, I don’t think he’ll be King in own right until the very end, after Daenerys is dead, and the Others are defeated. Jon will be the “hero” left standing. He won’t want to be King but will see it as a duty to rebuild the realm. He won’t be happy, he’ll be like Ned in KL. Perhaps he won’t even rule all that long. Who knows.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Speaking of passing beneath the shadow, Quaithe tells Dany that she will find truth in Asshai. Maybe it's truth about the Long Night, but almost certainly some truth relating to dragons. But until that is formally unmasked in the story, Quaithe is remaining mum. 

Was an old theory Quaithe was talking about the Rogare sword, Truth, in that passage.  

[EggBlue]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Was an old theory Quaithe was talking about the Rogare sword, Truth, in that passage.  

Rogare sword? are you being serious? how?

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Some characters will bring proof, and I think Daenerys will acknowledge him as a Targaryen (maybe not a legitimate one) but she’ll back him as being Rhaegar’s. And even then, I don’t think he’ll be King in own right until the very end, after Daenerys is dead, and the Others are defeated. Jon will be the “hero” left standing. He won’t want to be King but will see it as a duty to rebuild the realm. He won’t be happy, he’ll be like Ned in KL. Perhaps he won’t even rule all that long. Who knows.

I'm pretty sure the resurrection plot will make it rather unlikely that Jon Snow will ever be a mundane king.

That aside - if Jon's symbols of legitimacy and royalty all come from or through Daenerys then he won't be the rightful heir/king. At best he would be put into a position where he would share in her rule (as her consort and heir), becoming a potential successor.

Whatever proof there can be for Jon's true parentage shouldn't be particularly convincing. I mean, the story as such is quite unbelievable as it is, but after Aegon's seemingly unbelievable story it might be too much - especially if proof were come to light that Aegon is not, in fact, Rhaegar's son.

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Rogare sword? are you being serious? how?

I am being completely serious.  That is the name of it, Truth.  Hey, before Fire & Blood came out we were desperate.