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Biggest sore loser in the saga ?


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The vile Tywin Lannister sacked King's Landing and directed Gregor Clegane to do what he did to Elia Martell and her children partially as a response to Elia rather than Cersei having been married to Rhaegar Targaryen. With respect to being a "sore loser" specifically, he takes the cake for this reason alone.

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On 2/10/2023 at 10:38 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Whose ASOIAF is the greatest sore loser of all time, with the worst, pettiest and most pathetic or most stupid attitude toward being beaten or outsmarted or outshined by someone else ?

I'd say that Joffrey, Tywin, Walder Frey and Balon Greyjoy are all great candidates for the title.

Only Balon from your list would count. Walder won, Robb lost. 
 

The man who should let go of his family’s defeat is Jon. He had a more important job to do at the wall and messed up because he wanted to destroy his old family’s enemies.  

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On 2/13/2023 at 6:41 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I was thinking Stannis, he was all like "if Mel was there, the fire would have been on our side" which definitely brings the response of, "what?"

But I didn't specifically because of his remarks about Tyrion and the battle.

Appears sportsmen like to me

Eh. Stannis goes back and forth. Sometimes he's upstanding, honorable and willing to learn from defeat, and sometimes he's childish, petty and spiteful. Of course he is the sorest loser. That's why I like him.

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On 2/12/2023 at 7:36 PM, James West said:

Sore loser is Stannis Baratheon.  He was humiliated by Tyrion and he still won't accept it.  

If there had been fairer weather and his fleet had not been delayed, Stannis would have won the Battle of the Blackwater.

The Lannisters were insanely lucky that Lysa Arryn did not raise her banners, that the Baratheons were split between Stannis and Renly, and that the Stark-Tully alliance faced misfortune after misfortune. It's a testament to Mr. Martin's writing skill more than anything else that these were all borne out of prior characterization and plotting, realistic mistakes, etc. But the Lannisters should have lost and would have lost if it hadn't been for pretty much everything happening as it did.

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On 2/12/2023 at 7:03 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

 

Doran Martell and Arya Stark are the ones who are the best candidates for the title.  Doran and Arya are blinded by hate.  They want revenge.  Arya does more than plan.  She kills. 

Cold hate.  What is left of Arya's life is now dedicated only to killing. 

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10 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

If there had been fairer weather and his fleet had not been delayed, Stannis would have won the Battle of the Blackwater.

The Lannisters were insanely lucky that Lysa Arryn did not raise her banners, that the Baratheons were split between Stannis and Renly, and that the Stark-Tully alliance faced misfortune after misfortune. It's a testament to Mr. Martin's writing skill more than anything else that these were all borne out of prior characterization and plotting, realistic mistakes, etc. But the Lannisters should have lost and would have lost if it hadn't been for pretty much everything happening as it did.

The Baratheons being split rather than attacking the Lannisters was not bad luck on Stannis’ part, it was Stannis putting himself and his being king over beating the Lannisters. (not to mention his brother’s life.)

Stannis didn’t even need to participate to beat the Lannisters, he just had to keep sulking on DS and not fuck everything up. But no, after sitting on Dragonstone and letting Robert die in ignorance of the danger Stannis knew about, and uttering not a word for months afterwards, his priority was not the Lannisters, it was killing his other brother. Without that need to make the world Stannis, the Lannisters are defeated, simple fact. His ego > everything else. You can call that good writing, but to me what is evidence of good writing is that GRRM created in Stannis a character whose fans are so loyal they will perform acts of rhetorical acrobatics to avoid the glaringly obvious truth about how much of what is still happening comes back to his need to king above all. 

Edited by James Arryn
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31 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

But no, after sitting on Dragonstone and letting Robert die in ignorance of the danger Stannis knew about, and uttering not a word for months afterwards, his priority was not the Lannisters, it was killing his other brother.

Someone visited the Cushing Library and checked the early drafts of AFfC before it was split, which naturally included all the POVs. In this version of Jon's story dating to early 2000s, while Stannis was still at Castle Black, Jon was secretly making plans to lead a ranging party to the Craster's in order to deal with the remaining mutineers there. Below is the page where Jon learns that Stannis knew his plans:

https://imgur.com/SbMUHD5

I laughed so hard to this one. If Jon's men are informing on him to Stannis, it would be their duty. After all, a leal subject has no secrets from his rightful king. :lmao:

What was the thing that Gandalf told Saruman? Stannis should have been the king's jester.

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56 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

The Baratheons being split rather than attacking the Lannisters was not bad luck on Stannis’ part, it was Stannis putting himself and his being king over beating the Lannisters. (not to mention his brother’s life.)

I think the point still stands though that the Lannisters got lucky that Stannis got both of his more competent (at the very least in terms of how they would have dealt with the Lannisters) brothers killed - one through an omission and one through direct intervention, the active commission of the crime.

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2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the point still stands though that the Lannisters got lucky that Stannis got both of his more competent (at the very least in terms of how they would have dealt with the Lannisters) brothers killed - one through an omission and one through direct intervention, the active commission of the crime.

Oh, sure, and they knew it, remember their reaction when they got word Stannis was attacking SE. It was such a dumb move. It was the greatest gift anyone has given the Lannister regime. Hell, if Stannis wasn’t exactly the type of narcissist he is, if he was content with the power instead of the glory, he could have just waited til Renly defeated the Lannisters and then shadow baby; he’s the heir. But, no…he had to not just be the king, but be seen to win it, him and no one else. What a complete baby. And so Renly’s dead, Robb’s dead, and the lions still rule. Great Job, True King!

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25 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Someone visited the Cushing Library and checked the early drafts of AFfC before it was split, which naturally included all the POVs. In this version of Jon's story dating to early 2000s, while Stannis was still at Castle Black, Jon was secretly making plans to lead a ranging party to the Craster's in order to deal with the remaining mutineers there. Below is the page where Jon learns that Stannis knew his plans:

https://imgur.com/SbMUHD5

I laughed so hard to this one. If Jon's men are informing on him to Stannis, it would be their duty. After all, a leal subject has no secrets from his rightful king. /cdn-cgi/mirage/e7cdc3d1b42064bbcb7493ddaf3c1b2d3511a1895af109f2c96f899ee8a13be4/1440/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_lmao.gif

What was the thing that Gandalf told Saruman? Stannis should have been the king's jester.

He’s the stickler for rules who is his own exception to every rule. Or, wait…what did he cut off for dealing in smuggled goods? 

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6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Great Job, True King!

True King = True Hypocrite. Stannis must be one of the biggest hypocrites in the series.

  • It's okay for him to betray his rightful king but it's not okay for anyone else to betray the rightful king when it's him, even if they have valid reasons. Stannis isn't right on Aerys' level but...
  • It's okay for him to eat human flesh when he's starving but if his men do it they get burned to death.
  • It's okay for him to skip over people in the line of succession based on his flimsy suspicions that he never received confirmation on, but when Renly does it and is actually honest about why he's doing it, Renly has to be killed.
  • It's okay for him to commit adultery but not anyone else
  • It's okay for him to fail to disclose vital information which could save his king's life but not anyone else.
  • It's okay for him to place self-preservation above loyalty to the king but not anyone else.
  • Et al
Edited by Craving Peaches
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2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

True King = True Hypocrite. Stannis must be one of the biggest hypocrites in the series.

  • It's okay for him to betray his rightful king but it's not okay for anyone else to betray the rightful king when it's him, even if they have valid reasons. Stannis isn't right on Aerys' level but...
  • It's okay for him to eat human flesh when he's starving but if his men do it they get burned to death.
  • It's okay for him to skip over people in the line of succession based on his flimsy suspicions that he never received confirmation on, but when Renly does it and is actually honest about why he's doing it, Renly has to be killed.
  • It's okay for him to commit adultery but not anyone else
  • It's okay for him to fail to disclose vital information which could save his king's life but not anyone else.
  • Et al

And it’s not like George is subtle about it; “I am not without mercy!” thundered he who was famously without mercy. 
 

Also, this story he tells;

"When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was right." Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea. "The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk."

 

…is stolen almost word for word from a ~ 70’s? tv miniseries version of Ivanhoe. The younger brother still jealous about everything/a bird his older brother had? Bad King John.
 

And yet readers bend over backwards to avoid looking at how everything in Stannis’ mind is about Stannis. What others get that Stannis doesn’t, what Stannis deserves, how wronged Stannis was, how Robert should have made Stannis Hand, how Stannis should have gotten the Stormlands, how unfair life has been to Stannis, etc. And the best part is if you said ‘I can’t stand characters who think they are entitled to everything’ his fans would whole-heartedly agree with you. Honestly, taken on his own without accounting for the inexplicable MAGA, sorry, hero worship, Stannis is a pretty fun character to read about and does possess real strengths. But if he’s this myopically ego-centric from the outside, can you imagine what a Stannis POV would read like? Jesus Christ, it’d make Cersei look like she’s all about other people. 

 

 

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I'm not sure where the vitriol for Stannis (or the worship for Renly of all people :huh:) came from, but that was completely irrelevant as a response to my point.

By the way, Renly is the one who wanted to kill Stannis, and he made that clear while insulting him in the worst ways during the parley. Stannis is bad at interpersonal relationships, but his offer to Renly was exceedingly generous -- that he drew steel was a direct result of Renly's provocation.

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4 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

By the way, Renly is the one who wanted to kill Stannis

He never wanted to kill Stannis. He does nothing against Stannis until Stannis shows up out of the blue and attacks him. Yes, he makes it clear that he wouldn't care very much if Stannis died, and that he feels his death is inevitable, but he never orders anyone to kill him. And Stannis actually killed Renly.

8 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

and he made that clear while insulting him in the worst ways during the parley.

They both insulted each other. How were Renly's insults any worse? Stannis straight up threatened to 'destroy' Renly at that parley, and had a go at him for liking men, and that he would never father any children. And Renly said Stannis' wife and child were ugly, and that his child was a bastard. They were tit-for-tat insults.

25 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

but his offer to Renly was exceedingly generous -

I really think you need to take into account the relative strength of their respective positions here. Stannis offer was not really generous because it offered nothing Renly did not already have. Renly was already his heir by law and going from King to Master of Laws was a downgrade. Renly offers Stannis what he does not already have, Storm's End. Renly is in the stronger position, he doesn't have to offer Stannis anything, yet he does, and what he offers Stannis is arguably more generous than what Stannis offers him.

28 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

that he drew steel was a direct result of Renly's provocation.

It was a peach...

29 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I'm not sure where the vitriol for Stannis

I need to vent sometimes.

29 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

or the worship for Renly of all people

I guess my name, profile picture, and signature don't make it clear enough. :crying:

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I enjoy the heck out of Stannis because of Davos.  Took me a long time to realize that.  What does Davos have without Stannis?  Um...Salador Saan?  A career in White Harbor maybe?  It's hard to want Stannis to fall when a guy as good as Davos who isn't afraid of much and has a good honest head on his shoulders is on his side and doesn't seem useful to anyone else in power.  Go Stannis!

Before the medium that shall not be named was I thought Davos might be the next big death in TWOW because I was pretty sure Stannis was going to die and I just couldn't see a place for Davos if his king left.  

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

He never wanted to kill Stannis. He does nothing against Stannis until Stannis shows up out of the blue and attacks him. Yes, he makes it clear that he wouldn't care very much if Stannis died, and that he feels his death is inevitable, but he never orders anyone to kill him. And Stannis actually killed Renly.

"That was amusing, if not terribly profitable," he commented. "I wonder where I can get a sword like that? Well, doubtless Loras will make me a gift of it after the battle. It grieves me that it must come to this."

"You have a cheerful way of grieving," said Catelyn, whose distress was not feigned.

"Do I?" Renly shrugged. "So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose that tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get-"

"Then your brother is the lawful heir."

"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it’s a fool's law, wouldn’t you agree? Why the oldest brother, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis. I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient -"

"Humble?" Catelyn supplied.

Renly laughed. "You must allow a king some flaws, my lady."

Catelyn III, A Clash of Kings

I'm including this entire quote without because it is the best possible summary of Renly's character.  I won't bother with further quotes here or for your other points aside from the spoilers below, because it gets too lengthy and less about the actual analysis. But this chapter encapsulates what Renly is perfectly: truly vile, all style and no substance, but even with the style, unable to act nice for long.

(Note, to the contrary, that Stannis has substance, even filled with grievances and obsessions with being wronged as he is in ACoK, pre-character development. He offers Cat her daughters back with no conditions or reservations whatsoever.)

Mark the two clear indications in boldface that Renly fully expects Stannis, specifically, to die; there is no other way to take those words. 

Spoiler

"My lord," [Catelyn] announced. "If you are set on battle, my purpose here is done. I ask your leave to return to Riverrun."

"You do not have it."

Catelyn III, A Clash of Kings

"I was at the Whispering Wood, my lord. I have seen enough butchery. I came here an envoy-"

"And an envoy you shall leave," Renly said, "but wiser than you came. You shall see what befalls rebels with your own eyes, so your son can hear it from your own lips. We'll keep you safe, never fear."

Catelyn III, A Clash of Kings

 

His intention was to kill Stannis from the start, and he also is using this as a warning to the Starks by mistreating an envoy. 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

They both insulted each other. How were Renly's insults any worse? Stannis straight up threatened to 'destroy' Renly at that parley, and had a go at him for liking men, and that he would never father any children. And Renly said Stannis' wife and child were ugly, and that his child was a bastard. They were tit-for-tat insults.

Stannis only responded in kind after Renly provoked him. And, no, there is no sane way to read Renly and Stannis as equivalent in the parley. Renly went into it with no intention to take it seriously and fully intending to kill Stannis. He was being flippant specifically to bait Stannis's temper and end any possibility of a truce, and the things of import he did say (e.g., offer of Storm's End) were purposely as insulting as possible.

Renly's first comment when he arrived about it was a facetious remark about how confusing it would be for both armies to have the same banner: he very obviously desired this battle, no ifs or buts about it.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really think you need to take into account the relative strength of their respective positions here. Stannis offer was not really generous because it offered nothing Renly did not already have. Renly was already his heir by law and going from King to Master of Laws was a downgrade. Renly offers Stannis what he does not already have, Storm's End. Renly is in the stronger position, he doesn't have to offer Stannis anything, yet he does, and what he offers Stannis is arguably more generous than what Stannis offers him.

All Renly offered Stannis was Storm's End in an extremely insulting manner, accompanied by a nasty rumor of Patchface being Shireen's father. He was blatantly not taking the parley seriously -- because his intention was for war, and to kill Stannis.

Shireen was Stannis's recognized heir at that point because Renly forfeited it as a traitor. Stannis offered him a blanket pardon, Storm's End and his old seat on the small council, and heirship until/unless he has a son  -- disinheriting his own daughter for his brother's sake.

There have been strong analyses on how Stannis could have won the battle outright. I won't bother to link them here, because it honestly doesn't even matter; Renly was a completely incompetent military commander. Catelyn IV in A Clash of Kings explores this in great detail.

Cat notes how Renly utterly failed strategy (no encircling movements) and logistics (outdistanced his supply lines -- note particularly, this was in his eagerness to come to battle with his brother, to kill him). Rely gave the van's command to his unqualified boyfriend instead of an experienced military commander. Stannis cleverly positioned his troops so that Renly would have to attack with the sun in his own troop's eyes if he charged after the sun rose, and he ignored his commanders informing him of this fact, intending to strike at daybreak.

Stannis was in a very strong position because of Renly's incompetence.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was a peach...

The peach was not the provocation; the totality of Renly's words and behavior throughout the parley were.

Edited by Many-Faced Votary
Wrong chapter in citation.
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On 2/10/2023 at 9:38 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Whose ASOIAF is the greatest sore loser of all time, with the worst, pettiest and most pathetic or most stupid attitude toward being beaten or outsmarted or outshined by someone else ?

I'd say that Joffrey, Tywin, Walder Frey and Balon Greyjoy are all great candidates for the title.

Cersie, 100% no contest.  She had a pubescent crush on Rhaegar and was denied due to politics. She spent the entire rest of her life destroying every single person she came into contact with because she didn't get to marry the prince she fell in love with before she even understood the concept of love.

She thinks about it constantly. She compares everyone to the Prince her daddy promised her, and because her entire conception of him was based on pre-teen fantasy, nobody can ever compare.  She only settled for her own brother because she sees him as a male mirror of herself and she only loves herself.  Even her eventual mental denigration of her father is based on the fact that he didn't secure the fairy-land marriage that she has in her head.

Edited by Ring3r
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