Can we just talk about Balon Greyjoy for a minute

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, sifth said:

Why did the Iron Born, follow this guy again?

Hur dur stupid greenlanders, hur dur muh iron price, hur dur brain damage due to oxygen deprivation.

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Lords Tyrell and Redwyne aren't a very strong argument to accept it, neither are known for their political or strategic accumen, and anyone with common sense and knowledge of the North knew that Balon can't hold it nor that they can't let Balon proclaim himself as an independent king without weakening Joffrey's cause and credibility.

Redwyne isnt known to be bad or good and mace is sharper than he apears as.many threads have discussed.

The idea they cant hold any of the north sorta ignores the history of the region and military reality of driving off seaborne forces with 0 navy.

Hes declared himself king anyway might as well.feel out the enemys resolve before any future attacks

[Craving Peaches]

The Ironborn do not place that great a stock in being clever, but being strong. In addition, the Islands are not built for an easy life. This means that selection pressures are, in essence, favouring brawn over brains. I expect most clever but not particularly strong Ironborn, especially those not of the noble class, would leave the islands, meaning the availability of 'intelligent genes' is lower and lower each generation.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

Redwyne isnt known to be bad or good and mace is sharper than he apears as.many threads have discussed.

The idea they cant hold any of the north sorta ignores the history of the region and military reality of driving off seaborne forces with 0 navy.

Hes declared himself king anyway might as well.feel out the enemys resolve before any future attacks

Well that statement shows the strategic limits and lack of political sense of Mace with him completely forgetting that he would be weakening the Iron Throne he supports and depriving his descendants via Margaery of two kingdoms to rule over.

The idea that he can hold the North ignores the reality and history of the region, of what is said and demonstrated in the books and of the Ironborn's own history and realities with their warfare being ill-suited for land with their short manpower as well as their lack of cavalry, archers, disciplined infantry and siege weapons, and them having long lost all their holdings in the North to the Northmen a very long time ago.

 

[astarkchoice]

20 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yes or no will do. Did the man fight in either rebellion? You seem to be this guys biggest fan boy for some daft reason.

We have 0 idea

 

Not a fanboy just not willing to.join the endless frighing circlejerk over the starks(who.im a fan of)  or.northmen in general. The whole.whinging that theres no way parts  north can be taken by anyone else cause the northerners are special snowflakes , or getting angry at balon,roose  or walder for their decions as though there is 0 merit from their perspective at all .

 

I mean its the same stupid argument every time

The northerners built a navy in the past so they can do it again and drive the ironborn off BUT the ironborn holding land there for generations as they did in the past .is apparently impossible !!!! I mean you have to have some insane level of bias  to not see for example  bear island  is unquestionably easy for the ironborn to take and hold!

 

For the record i think balon makes plenty of dumb decisons too as do most characters  but theres far easier ones to pick  such as his dismissal of theon (anyone want to honestly say the ironborn couldnt hold the north with theon  given a proper command role? ) or pushing asha as heir ins spite of the friction itl.cause etc

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but for all his many faults, I can at least understand why the Iron Born follow Euron. He fights with his men on the front lines and has been shown to get results. Balon just sat around, while other people did the fighting for him, during two rebellions, that he started. He accused Theon of being soft, but what battles did  Balon help win? 

Nothing. But the Ironborn are still living in their dreams, choosing to completely ignore the cruel reality of their situation and lack of strength they pretend to have.

[Hugorfonics]

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

I can at least understand why the Iron Born follow Euron. He fights with his men on the front lines and has been shown to get results.

No he doesn't, he sends Vic. Even now with the world in balance he needs his younger brother to sail the Iron Fleet

18 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

There isn't a single person in Westeros that says something nice about the guy... he is always called, crazy, mad, blind, fool, bad lord, bad king and so on... Even Joffrey has a better track record.

Tywin kinda heaps praise in his way. And every Ironborn love him.

What's Joffs track? Losing half the realm and winning the early stages against Robb and BW?

Balon conquered all of the North's vital strongholds, his conquest was basically complete like a week into the invasion. If he wasn't murdered and had all his plans reversed then Stannis would have had a much more difficult time and Roose would never have even come up north.

 

Regarding Westeros intelligence, who are we comparing him too? Mace? Eddard? Moonboy?

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

We have 0 idea

 

Not a fanboy just not willing to.join the endless frighing circlejerk over the starks(who.im a fan of)  or.northmen in general. The whole.whinging that theres no way parts  north can be taken by anyone else cause the northerners are special snowflakes , or getting angry at balon,roose  or walder for their decions as though there is 0 merit from their perspective at all .

 

I mean its the same stupid argument every time

The northerners built a navy in the past so they can do it again and drive the ironborn off BUT the ironborn holding land there for generations as they did in the past .is apparently impossible !!!! I mean you have to have some insane level of bias  to not see for example  bear island  is unquestionably easy for the ironborn to take and hold!

 

For the record i think balon makes plenty of dumb decisons too as do most characters  but theres far easier ones to pick  such as his dismissal of theon (anyone want to honestly say the ironborn couldnt hold the north with theon  given a proper command role? ) or pushing asha as heir ins spite of the friction itl.cause etc

 

You’re using deflection to somehow shift the conversation to the Starks. A common tactic used by someone who doesn’t have a leg to stand on. We’re talking about Balon AND ONLY BALON.

 

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No he doesn't, he sends Vic. Even now with the world in balance he needs his younger brother to sail the Iron Fleet

Tywin kinda heaps praise in his way. And every Ironborn love him.

What's Joffs track? Losing half the realm and winning the early stages against Robb and BW?

Balon conquered all of the North's vital strongholds, his conquest was basically complete like a week into the invasion. If he wasn't murdered and had all his plans reversed then Stannis would have had a much more difficult time and Roose would never have even come up north.

 

Regarding Westeros intelligence, who are we comparing him too? Mace? Eddard? Moonboy?

Did you read the sample chapter from winds? He’s basically leading his fleet into combat, by the end of the chapter.

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Well that statement shows the strategic limits and lack of political sense of Mace with him completely forgetting that he would be weakening the Iron Throne he supports and depriving his descendants via Margaery of two kingdoms to rule over.

The idea that he can hold the North ignores the reality and history of the region, of what is said and demonstrated in the books and of the Ironborn's own history and realities with their warfare being ill-suited for land with their short manpower as well as their lack of cavalry, archers, disciplined infantry and siege weapons, and them having long lost all their holdings in the North to the Northmen a very long time ago.

 

Id say hes a litle.more worried about the arbour , shield islands and possibly.oldtown no?

The history that.shows the lands changed hands between ironborn and northeners frequently?

Short manpower? With robb seemingly trapped down south they have roughly  equal numbers to the  remaining northern forces ( iron islands 20k and north 45 -robbs 18-20k  )who are spread out over massive  massive distances, seemingly leaderless and  their king about to be destroyed down south anyway

They have archers dude and professional troops just as vikings did , they are weaker in  cavalry but that.only.maters for  huge pitched battles which decide very little.of actual wars.

Ooh and they have a navy...the northerners have 0.navy so just as in actual history the idea they can be driven off easy dies a quick death...they will always  have the initiative  along such a vast vast coast (and bear island is unquestionably theirs for at least a generation if they want it) 

 

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

You’re using deflection to somehow shift the conversation to the Starks. A common tactic used by someone who doesn’t have a leg to stand on. We’re talking about Balon AND ONLY BALON.

 

Fine then balom.attacked the easier target ..nuff.said

The naval born military chose the one target that hadnt counter navy ..shocker

[sifth]

Just now, astarkchoice said:

Fine then balom.attacked the easier target ..nuff.said

The naval born military chose the one target that hadnt counter navy ..shocker

I wasn’t talking about that. I asked did he actually fight in either of his rebellions? You’re still trying to deflect. 

[astarkchoice]

Just now, sifth said:

I wasn’t talking about that. I asked did he actually fight in either of his rebellions? You’re still trying to deflect. 

He died in at the 2nd ones start  so you are really asking about the 1st one and no as far as we know  it was his sons and brothers

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, sifth said:

Did you read the sample chapter from winds? He’s basically leading his fleet into combat, by the end of the chapter.

I thought I did?

Something about Aeron complaining and Euron hanging out with Danys warlocks in Valyrian steel armor.... Is that really what it is lol, maybe I should give a reread, especially cuz I don't remember him leading a fleet. What into Oldtown?

8 minutes ago, sifth said:

I wasn’t talking about that. I asked did he actually fight in either of his rebellions? You’re still trying to deflect. 

What's the difference? Only Starks are obsessed with always leading from the front

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

14 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id say hes a litle.more worried about the arbour , shield islands and possibly.oldtown no?

The history that.shows the lands changed hands between ironborn and northeners frequently?

Short manpower? With robb seemingly trapped down south they have roughly  equal numbers to the  remaining northern forces ( iron islands 20k and north 45 -robbs 18-20k  )who are spread out over massive  massive distances, seemingly leaderless and  their king about to be destroyed down south anyway

They have archers dude and professional troops just as vikings did , they are weaker in  cavalry but that.only.maters for  huge pitched battles which decide very little.of actual wars.

Ooh and they have a navy...the northerners have 0.navy so just as in actual history the idea they can be driven off easy dies a quick death...they will always  have the initiative  along such a vast vast coast (and bear island is unquestionably theirs for at least a generation if they want it) 

 

For several times, but every time it ended with the North winning and pushing the Ironborn back until the Ironborn were definitively chased thousands of years ago. 

Yes short manpower, the Iron Islands certainely can't rise great numbers of men due to how limited their geography is, and they have suffered from a crushing defeat just nine years ago. Robb took 18K with him, but it's not the entirety of the forces that the North can rise, and the northmen have the advantage of fighting home, knowing their lands far better than the Ironborn, have much greater cavalry and will resplenish their forces much better than the Ironborn in the long haul, not counting that the Ironborn are more like caricatures of the Vikings than equivalents of the Vikings with them having expressed a disdain for archers and being specialized in reaving/raiding than being profesionnal soldiers. 

Also Balon and his inner circle completely ignore, either willingly or not, the realities of the North with Ironborn not being prepared for a northern winter as seen in ADWD, the hell that the Neck and the Crannogmen give to the Ironborn, and the fact that they don't even target other castles than Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte and the Stony Shore villages, that Winterfell is still there and that whoever is in charge will have time to reorganize and assemble slowly but surely the northern forces from here far quicker than the Ironborn can hope to conquer large lands in the North, and that the great majority of the North isn't reachable from the western coastline.

And the Ironborn don't need a navy to beat the Ironborn on land and push them back to the sea, you don't need ships to take back castles. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

14 minutes ago, sifth said:

I wasn’t talking about that. I asked did he actually fight in either of his rebellions? You’re still trying to deflect. 

He didn't, in both cases he just sit in Pyke and let his brothers and children do the leading and fighting in his stead.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

17 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Fine then balom.attacked the easier target ..nuff.said

The naval born military chose the one target that hadnt counter navy ..shocker

It was easier because no one was there to defend it. Had Robb crossed into the North the Ironborn would be obliterated if they don’t retreat. The Ironborn are raiders, and can’t hold a castle far away from water. Balon, as a “King”, was never going to be successful. He next to no chance of holding the North without Tywin giving it to him, which he would never do. He’d let Roose fight them, and when Tyrion’s child by Sansa came of age it would’ve been given to them.

Even without that, the Northerns by themselves would push them out eventually. 
 

And it’s cowardly because he attacked the weakest enemy he could, and won next to nothing. They weren’t gonna farm the land or mine. They were stealing what little resources they had. Essentially it was liking robbing a bank and only walking away with a couple hundred dollars. By Ironborn standards, Balon was a weak man. And not particularly bright. Or perhaps he was just afraid. Either way, just a bad ruler.

[the trees have eyes]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Ironborn do not place that great a stock in being clever, but being strong. In addition, the Islands are not built for an easy life. This means that selection pressures are, in essence, favouring brawn over brains. I expect most clever but not particularly strong Ironborn, especially those not of the noble class, would leave the islands, meaning the availability of 'intelligent genes' is lower and lower each generation.

I like this  Selective breeding for stupidity. 

The culture, like many island cultures, is, well, insular to the point of impenetrability and xenophobia: outsiders are thralls or potential victims of reavings.  It's hard to see how this changes and why they would follow someone who tried to enforce change.  Maybe Asha will show us the answer but after her rejection at The Kingsmoot it's hard to see the Lords of The Isles changing their minds and taking her seriously.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I like this  Selective breeding for stupidity. 

The culture, like many island cultures, is, well, insular to the point of impenetrability and xenophobia: outsiders are thralls or potential victims of reavings.  It's hard to see how this changes and why they would follow someone who tried to enforce change.  Maybe Asha will show us the answer but after her rejection at The Kingsmoot it's hard to see the Lords of The Isles changing their minds and taking her seriously.

She may have her Theon the Latecomer, to make the Kingsmoot illegal and take power while Euron is away or after suffering one or several defeats that weakened his credibility. 

Though of course she and Theon need to survive, and to be freed on condition by Stannis or the Starks for this to happen.

[astarkchoice]

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

For several times, but every time it ended with the North winning and pushing the Ironborn back until the Ironborn were definitively chased thousands of years ago. 

Yes short manpower, the Iron Islands certainely can't rise great numbers of men due to how limited their geography is, and they have suffered from a crushing defeat just nine years ago. Robb took 18K with him, but it's not the entirety of the forces that the North can rise, and the northmen have the advantage of fighting home, knowing their lands far better than the Ironborn, have much greater cavalry and will resplenish their forces much better than the Ironborn in the long haul, not counting that the Ironborn are more like caricatures of the Vikings than equivalents of the Vikings with them having expressed a disdain for archers and being specialized in reaving/raiding than being profesionnal soldiers. 

Also Balon and his inner circle completely ignore, either willingly or not, the realities of the North with Ironborn not being prepared for a northern winter as seen in ADWD, the hell that the Neck and the Crannogmen give to the Ironborn, and the fact that they don't even target other castles than Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte and the Stony Shore villages.

And the Ironborn don't need a navy to beat the Ironborn on land and push them back to the sea, you don't need ships to take back castles. 

By the 'north winning ' you mean after generations ....its not a football game man, the ironborn clearly took  and held territory for generations...that means very very clearly it can be done

The 18k are the best with most of the elite young leaders and lords and 'knights,  ehats left is spread out over a giant distance with no fixed leadership...who exactly is gonna slowly round up all these remaining men to lead this great fightback? Cape.kraken alone is said to have as.much ironborn blood in  its people as northern.

The neck only has to be held long enough for robb to be slaughtered by the lannister/tyrell alliance snd a skeleton crew managed it 

Winter comming makes my point for me as we see with rooses men they dont much like being outside either! Balons next steps were talking all the holdfasts bar winterfell along the coasts , with skeleton crew force defending them.theyd fall one at a time easily (chipping away at the limited norths manpower) and be fully manned by ironborn who can be supplied by the sea, nice and warm inside ......so IF somehow the north can concentrate its remaining forces under a leadership (huge If there)  its gonna be besieging castles in high winter...good luck!

Bottom line once dug into those costal castles even with robb theyd be hard to dig out.

Yes you do need naval forces as history shows dude , the  logistics of medieval warfare mean unless you build one yourself you are always on the backfoot reacting not being proactive