Can we just talk about Balon Greyjoy for a minute

[astarkchoice]

7 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

It was easier because no one was there to defend it. Had Robb crossed into the North the Ironborn would be obliterated if they don’t retreat. The Ironborn are raiders, and can’t hold a castle far away from water. Balon, as a “King”, was never going to be successful. He next to no chance of holding the North without Tywin giving it to him, which he would never do. He’d let Roose fight them, and when Tyrion’s child by Sansa came of age it would’ve been given to them.

Even without that, the Northerns by themselves would push them out eventually. 
 

And it’s cowardly because he attacked the weakest enemy he could, and won next to nothing. They weren’t gonna farm the land or mine. They were stealing what little resources they had. Essentially it was liking robbing a bank and only walking away with a couple hundred dollars. By Ironborn standards, Balon was a weak man. And not particularly bright. Or perhaps he was just afraid. Either way, just a bad ruler.

Right but only  we as readers know robb can get back north 

We cant judge balon  too harshly  for not knowing that as even most of his northen lords dont know he cant get north without moat cailin!

 

Thats not cowardly its common sense you pick the side thats gonna win and join in not the losing side, he wsnted bzck the ironborns old.lands and the cream.of their military were stuck south

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

It was easier because no one was there to defend it.

For sure. It was also the honorable thing to do as Balon saw the North as the abductor and killer of his son's. (Although as Theon stated, the RL people's killed his son's, but Balon has them jumbled)

4 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Had Robb crossed into the North the Ironborn would be obliterated if they don’t retreat.

MC has never been conquered from the south since it was built like 10000 years ago. Robb's never lost a battle, but odds are with the 10k

6 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The Ironborn are raiders, and can’t hold a castle far away from water. Balon, as a “King”, was never going to be successful.

I don't understand what this means. Raiders? Like wildlings? Theyre soldiers. Maybe some used to raid like Robb's men used to be farmers but they're all in gear now.

And the man was a king.

8 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

He next to no chance of holding the North without Tywin giving it to him, which he would never do. He’d let Roose fight them, and when Tyrion’s child by Sansa came of age it would’ve been given to them.

Roose wouldn't have gone north if Balon lived... And um, Tyrion and Sansa didn't have a kid.

10 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Even without that, the Northerns by themselves would push them out eventually. 

Because reasons, got it.

10 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

And it’s cowardly because he attacked the weakest enemy he could, and won next to nothing. They weren’t gonna farm the land or mine. They were stealing what little resources they had. Essentially it was liking robbing a bank and only walking away with a couple hundred dollars

Again, I don't get it. The IB are the only, according to lore, kingdom who successfully held down a foreign kingdom for a long time. Reachmen can't do that. Northerers couldn't even keep it's Fingers

12 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

By Ironborn standards, Balon was a weak man. And not particularly bright. Or perhaps he was just afraid. Either way, just a bad ruler.

So Westerosi standards? Who's a good ruler? A bright one? Robert? Joff? Tbh they didn't kill their constituents like Robb Renly and Stannis did

[the trees have eyes]

7 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

She may have her Theon the Latecomer, to make the Kingsmoot illegal and take power while Euron is away or after suffering one or several defeats that weakened his credibility. 

Though of course she and Theon need to survive, and to be freed on condition by Stannis or the Starks for this to happen.

That does seem to be her plan but even with Rodrik The Reader backing her it's really just a coup.  How will she hold power against challenges and how does she even go about changing the culture without being replaced?  Besides, she was just fine with taking part in Balon's assault on The North to prove herself worthy of being his heir so she's not exactly a change agent.  Major problems lie ahead.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure. It was also the honorable thing to do as Balon saw the North as the abductor and killer of his son's. (Although as Theon stated, the RL people's killed his son's, but Balon has them jumbled)

MC has never been conquered from the south since it was built like 10000 years ago. Robb's never lost a battle, but odds are with the 10k

I don't understand what this means. Raiders? Like wildlings? Theyre soldiers. Maybe some used to raid like Robb's men used to be farmers but they're all in gear now.

And the man was a king.

Roose wouldn't have gone north if Balon lived... And um, Tyrion and Sansa didn't have a kid.

Because reasons, got it.

Again, I don't get it. The IB are the only, according to lore, kingdom who successfully held down a foreign kingdom for a long time. Reachmen can't do that. Northerers couldn't even keep it's Fingers

So Westerosi standards? Who's a good ruler? A bright one? Robert? Joff? Tbh they didn't kill their constituents like Robb Renly and Stannis did

They only held the Riverlands for a long time because of the rivers. They could move freely throughout the Riverlands and quickly. And who’s to say Robb could go around Moat Cailin, and even then im sure the Crannogmen would help Robb and his forces get through. 
 

The Northman would push them out because it’s a large region, with harsh weather. The Ironborn there currently are freezing and starving to death. The locals would turn in them the first chance they got. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

By the 'north winning ' you mean after generations ....its not a football game man, the ironborn clearly took  and held territory for generations...that means very very clearly it can be done

The 18k are the best with most of the elite young leaders and lords and 'knights,  ehats left is spread out over a giant distance with no fixed leadership...who exactly is gonna slowly round up all these remaining men to lead this great fightback? Cape.kraken alone is said to have as.much ironborn blood in  its people as northern.

The neck only has to be held long enough for robb to be slaughtered by the lannister/tyrell alliance snd a skeleton crew managed it 

Winter comming makes my point for me as we see with rooses men they dont much like being outside either! Balons next steps were talking all the holdfasts bar winterfell along the coasts , with skeleton crew force defending them.theyd fall one at a time easily (chipping away at the limited norths manpower) and be fully manned by ironborn who can be supplied by the sea, nice and warm inside ......so IF somehow the north can concentrate its remaining forces under a leadership (huge If there)  its gonna be besieging castles in high winter...good luck!

Bottom line once dug into those costal castles even with robb theyd be hard to dig out.

Yes you do need naval forces as history shows dude , the  logistics of medieval warfare mean unless you build one yourself you are always on the backfoot reacting not being proactive 

The Ironborn didn't held for generations by the end, it was one king took it before losing it until the Starks definitively pushed them back. And if the Ironborn definitively lost them it's for a good reason, as they just couldn't continue at this game with the North and other kingdoms anymore for the simple reason that the kingdoms were getting stronger and more organised and better protected making it impossible for them to reconquer their former holdings in the long run. 

And speaking of Cape Kraken these people are northmen, not Ironborn, they are loyal to the Starks rather than to the Greyjoys and will fight against the Ironborn rather than help them. 

And the entirrety of Balon's plan relies on Robb and his army getting beaten in the south which is far from garuanteed to happen, and for him face no opposition in the North which is far from true as we know it. And nothing says that the remaining northmen won't besiege or assault Moat Cailin from the north side after having assembled their forces.

And the Ironborn only have a few holds to last in winter while the northerners will still have most of their castles and towns and be better suited to fight outside of these castles than Ironborn are. Not counting that the Ironborn will also have to rely on being resupllied by their ships and that if the northerners burn their ships or prevent them from coming back to them they will be in a precarious situation. 

And no if you are northerners you don't need ships to beat the Ironborn on land and besiege the castles in which they are installed. 

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

The Ironborn holding the north would be like Scandanavian Vikings being able to hold Russia. Like just no.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

They only held the Riverlands for a long time because of the rivers. They could move freely throughout the Riverlands and quickly. And who’s to say Robb could go around Moat Cailin, and even then im sure the Crannogmen would help Robb and his forces get through. 
 

The Northman would push them out because it’s a large region, with harsh weather. The Ironborn there currently are freezing and starving to death. The locals would turn in them the first chance they got. 

And because of the Riverlords' divisions and rivalries, which the Hoares relied on to maintain their hold and prevent organised rebellions. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

If not for Theon's taking of Winterfell and liberation of Ramsay, and Ramsay's murders of "Bran and Rickon", and him returning from the Dreadfort before killing Ser Rodrik and his forces and burning Winterfell Balon's invasion would have been far less impactful and the remaining northern forces would have been eventually reunited and reorganised by Ser Rodrik and would have eventually pushed the Ironborn back.

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

They only held the Riverlands for a long time because of the rivers. They could move freely throughout the Riverlands and quickly

Yet no other kingdom could, why not? Reachmen got boats. So do northerns. And let's say IB have great ships that can't be replicated for some reason. North got rivers too

8 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

And who’s to say Robb could go around Moat Cailin, and even then im sure the Crannogmen would help Robb and his forces get through

Robb did. Some would go around but the bulk would be Greatjon leading a massive assault from the south.

I don't have a doubt in my mind that Robb was the most brilliant commander in asoiaf (well, maybe Dany) but more armies then history itself can count have lost assaulting MC. Odds are not with the Young Wolf, if he wasn't brutally murdered or whatever 

11 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The Northman would push them out because it’s a large region, with harsh weather. The Ironborn there currently are freezing and starving to death

They are in indoor castles, the Northern nobility is not... I'd bet on the guys keeping cozy to deal with winter before the vagabonds.

12 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The locals would turn in them the first chance they got. 

Because reasons

9 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The Ironborn holding the north would be like Scandanavian Vikings being able to hold Russia. Like just no.

Um, do you know the origin to the state of Rus?

[astarkchoice]

3 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The Ironborn didn't held for generations by the end, it was one king took it before losing it until the Starks definitively pushed them back. And if the Ironborn definitively lost them it's for a good reason, as they just couldn't continue at this game with the North and other kingdoms anymore for the simple reason that the kingdoms were getting stronger and more organised and better protected making it impossible for them to reconquer their former holdings in the long run. 

And speaking of Cape Kraken these people are northmen, not Ironborn, they are loyal to the Starks rather than to the Greyjoys and will fight against the Ironborn rather than help them. 

And the entirrety of Balon's plan relies on Robb and his army getting beaten in the south which is far from garuanteed to happen, and for him face no opposition in the North which is far from true as we know it. And nothing says that the remaining northmen won't besiege or assault Moat Cailin from the north side after having assembled their forces.

And the Ironborn only have a few holds to last in winter while the northerners will still have most of their castles and towns and be better suited to fight outside of these castles than Ironborn are. Not counting that the Ironborn will also have to rely on being resupllied by their ships and that if the northerners burn their ships or prevent them from coming back to them they will be in a precarious situation. 

And no if you are northerners you don't need ships to beat the Ironborn on land and besiege the castles in which they are installed. 

 

They lost for good because silver haired dragon riders.came and told them to pack it in.

Again 90% of the common folk dont care its not some borg groupmind ..moat will continie their lives as normal esp the fishermen ...its  the lords that count and again theres no leadership left  up north to gather all the remaining troops for this fantasy fightback!! .and even if there was its a hard campaign over huge distances 

Most of the west coast castles will fall and be well manned, taking them in winter is next to impossible esp.if the northmen can use their navy to  easily  land  forces behind any besieged collegues.

 

For the love of odin you have to be blind and without a map  to not at least see bear island at minimum  is clearly easily the ironborns to take and hold with ease

 

Bottom line balon isnt the  stupid  thing here its actualy the north not having a  western navy despite their history  thats the stupidest shit here!

[astarkchoice]

4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

If not for Theon's taking of Winterfell and liberation of Ramsay, and Ramsay's murders of "Bran and Rickon", and him returning from the Dreadfort before killing Ser Rodrik and his forces and burning Winterfell Balon's invasion would have been far less impactful and the remaining northern forces would have been eventually reunited and reorganised by Ser Rodrik and would have eventually pushed the Ironborn back.

Nope.because if theon sticks to the plan hes.still there as an ace up balons  sleeve, an ironborn with intimate knowledge of all the remaining old.lords and ladies,terrain and castles etc

If somehow ser roddrick somehow  orgainses all the remaining 20k or so northern forces  spread wayyy wayy out under  him  (bear in mind the karstarks are sitting this out and house bolton and manderly.are still wanting to clash over the hornwood.lands ) hes still gotta try and dig the ironborn out of the western castles which they csn resuply by sea.....another chance for theon or asha or hell 'the knight' or andrik the unsmilimg etc ro shine

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 minute ago, astarkchoice said:

They lost for good because silver haired dragon riders.came and told them to pack it in.

Again 90% of the common folk dont care its not some borg groupmind ..moat will continie their lives as normal esp the fishermen ...its  the lords that count and again theres no leadership left  up north to gather all the remaining troops for this fantasy fightback!! .and even if there was its a hard campaign over huge distances 

Most of the west coast castles will fall and be well manned, taking them in winter is next to impossible esp.if the northmen can use their navy to  easily  land  forces behind any besieged collegues.

 

For the love of odin you have to be blind and without a map  to not at least see bear island at minimum  is clearly easily the ironborns to take and hold with ease

 

Bottom line balon isnt the  stupid  thing here its actualy the north not having a  western navy despite their history  thats the stupidest shit here!

They lost for good thousands of years before the Targaryens came in. 

And smallfolks certainely do care when their overlords aren't raiders and rapists that raid and enslave them. 

And most castles certainely won't fall with Ironborn lacking siege weapons, having lost the effect of surprise and being mostly concentrated in Moat Cailing and having hardly the numbers to cover the entire northern coastline anyway.

And the northmen certainely don't need boats to take back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, villages in the Stony Shore, plus the Ironborn weren't even planning to attack Bear Island, which is another proof of Balon's craziness and stupidity.  

Balon was a delusional narrow-minded fool and the worst King of the War, except for Joffrey.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope.because if theon sticks to the plan hes.still there as an ace up balons  sleeve, an ironborn with intimate knowledge of all the remaining old.lords and ladies,terrain and castles etc

If somehow ser roddrick somehow  orgainses all the remaining 20k or so northern forces  spread wayyy wayy out under  him  (bear in mind the karstarks are sitting this out and house bolton and manderly.are still wanting to clash over the hornwood.lands ) hes still gotta try and dig the ironborn out of the western castles which they csn resuply by sea.....another chance for theon or asha or hell 'the knight' or andrik the unsmilimg etc ro shine

If Theon sticks to the plan he's just going to raid fishing villages at the Stony Shore and nothing else, and Torrhen's Square stays untouched. 

Theon was never Balon's Ace in the sleeve, Balon had no esteem nor any use for him aside from minor raiding. 

And most western castles will be free to help or host Ser Rodrik and the rest of the northerners with the Ironborn not even touching them.

[Evolett]

There are serious consequences to Balon Greyjoy's unreflected taking of the North and declaring himself King of the Iron Islands and the North by right of conquest. At the time no one took him seriously, not even Tywin but Balon is dead and Euron has claimed that title. Euron is now King in the North, Robb's de facto successor, no matter how awful, unlikely or gruesome that sounds. He's sure to make good on that claim and in contrast to Balon, is not likely to be an easy pushover. The mind boggles as to what he might inflict upon the people of the North when he asserts his right to rule the region. Even the Boltons may not have considered this aspect.  

[Back in Black-Snow]

I have not read the thread. Only the OP.

[Best Biden impersonation imaginable/plastic face] "Come on, man! Phljraudinflation! And I have the best Phljraudinflation team the Iron Born has ever built or imagined."

[Orange-man-bad] Baratheon comes up in there, like, "Bitch. I am the King." And drives them back to the shores from whence they came.

But alas! A BOAR! WHO woulda thunk it? And a pup in the North?!!?

I would have done it. But he was too stupid. That was all Theon. If his pappy and sis would have listened and put all their forces behind him at Winterfell, they could have TRULY held Winterfell. Spend the Iron price for food, gold and necessary things. Send Asha (sorry if I got that wrong?) and every human who can man a ship to exact the Iron price via the sea.

Hopefully by the time Asha comes back with "Iron" at White Harbor, the main deposit at Winterfell has already taken White Harbor.

The North is yours, Your Grace (Balon)/or whoever they decide if he should die. Who better than Theon, if he is still alive? He should still have a cock in this scenario.

 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

16 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

[Best Biden impersonation imaginable/plastic face] "Come on, man! Phljraudinflation! And I have the best Phljraudinflation team the Iron Born has ever built or imagined."

[Orange-man-bad] Baratheon comes up in there, like, "Bitch. I am the King." And drives them back to the shores from whence they came.

"Ironborn kids are just as bright and just as talented as civilized kids."

[astarkchoice]

56 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

If Theon sticks to the plan he's just going to raid fishing villages at the Stony Shore and nothing else, and Torrhen's Square stays untouched. 

Theon was never Balon's Ace in the sleeve, Balon had no esteem nor any use for him aside from minor raiding. 

And most western castles will be free to help or host Ser Rodrik and the rest of the northerners with the Ironborn not even touching them.

If somehow northern resistsnce increases theon will.shine as.we know

No theyl be occupied with their forces slaughtereeld, the plan was  to take them one  at a time.ignorimg winterfell

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I thought I did?

Something about Aeron complaining and Euron hanging out with Danys warlocks in Valyrian steel armor.... Is that really what it is lol, maybe I should give a reread, especially cuz I don't remember him leading a fleet. What into Oldtown?

What's the difference? Only Starks are obsessed with always leading from the front

The chapter literally ends, with Euron's fleet preparing to engage the Redwyne Fleet.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

He died in at the 2nd ones start  so you are really asking about the 1st one and no as far as we know  it was his sons and brothers

No, I'm asking about both and in both Balon cowardly choose to sit on the sidelines, while his family fought HIS battles, risked THEIR lives and in many cases died or were seriously injured.

Balon "I don't fight my own battles" Greyjoy, should honestly be the mans name.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

They lost for good thousands of years before the Targaryens came in. 

And smallfolks certainely do care when their overlords aren't raiders and rapists that raid and enslave them. 

And most castles certainely won't fall with Ironborn lacking siege weapons, having lost the effect of surprise and being mostly concentrated in Moat Cailing and having hardly the numbers to cover the entire northern coastline anyway.

And the northmen certainely don't need boats to take back Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, villages in the Stony Shore, plus the Ironborn weren't even planning to attack Bear Island, which is another proof of Balon's craziness and stupidity.  

Balon was a delusional narrow-minded fool and the worst King of the War, except for Joffrey.

They won too...held the lands for.generations

 

Yes some.will be others wont, the bulk will live their lives as ever they have in shitty medieval.serfdom

They can build siege weapons remember cleftjaw built some to scare thorrens square plus most of the castles will have almost no guard force...using longboats the ironborn can concentrate overwhelming force on them one  or two at a time too.

 

Rihght  they  dont need them but itl be hard without them

And no bear.island wasnt hit...yet ! invasion was abandoned due to rope bridge accident remember