Can we just talk about Balon Greyjoy for a minute

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

11 minutes ago, sifth said:

Baelor Blacktyde and Tristifer Botley as well. They all seem like decent people.

Baelor is very dead, and he converted to the Faith. I doubt he’d be participating in much raiding.

[Craving Peaches]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

Isn't that just another word for "slave", lol

What I meant is that they had a situation like Pentos where they weren't called slaves but they basically were.

[sifth]

38 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Baelor is very dead, and he converted to the Faith. I doubt he’d be participating in much raiding.

Just saying, there are a few good apples. 

 

[the trees have eyes]

46 minutes ago, sifth said:

Isn't that just another word for "slave", lol

It was a pretty restrictive long-term employment contract - usually used for apprentices to learn their trade, to pay off debts or as a judicial punishment.  Indentured servants of European extraction were used in the Caribbean and U.S. colonies in return for their passage being paid to The New World until the hardship and mortality rates from disease led to a supply shortage and landowners to look elsewhere for labour and we all know how that ended up......

[The Young Maester]

Well I can see everyone has dissed Balon, and I feel left out so I’ll say my piece too.

Out of the 5 kings Balon was the worst king after Joffrey. I even believe that Cersei was a better strategist than Balon lol.

Theon saved this guys conquest and delayed its failure. I mean Balons entire kingship was so irrelevant that none of the kings (except for robb) even bothered to do something about him. Like we don’t even hear of these kings attempting diplomacy with Balon, just robb.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

4 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Well I can see everyone has dissed Balon, and I feel left out so I’ll say my piece too.

Out of the 5 kings Balon was the worst king after Joffrey. I even believe that Cersei was a better strategist than Balon lol.

Theon saved this guys conquest and delayed its failure. I mean Balons entire kingship was so irrelevant that none of the kings (except for robb) even bothered to do something about him. Like we don’t even hear of these kings attempting diplomacy with Balon, just robb.

Yeah, the one time he attempts diplomacy he's totally ignored by Tywin, for very good reasons since he not only made his attempt while already doing for free what he offers to Tywin, asks far too much from Tywin and is trying to bite far more than he can chew. 

[The Young Maester]

4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Yeah, the one time he attempts diplomacy he's totally ignored by Tywin, for very good reasons since he not only made his attempt while already doing for free what he offers to Tywin, asks far too much from Tywin and is trying to bite far more than he can chew. 

As someone else said in this discussion. Atleast walder and roose waited for an offer to come to the table before turning cloak.

if Balon wanted land in the north he should’ve reached Tywin first. Which is great timing because tywin just got outwitted by robb and Lannisters are in a desperate situation with renly and stannis threatening kings landing. Tywin might’ve told him that he can keep what he takes (desperate situation calls for desperate actions). Balon dosent declare himself king and instead declares for Joffrey and takes moat cailin and whatever castle he fancies.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

As someone else said in this discussion. Atleast walder and roose waited for an offer to come to the table before turning cloak.

if Balon wanted land in the north he should’ve reached Tywin first. Which is great timing because tywin just got outwitted by robb and Lannisters are in a desperate situation with renly and stannis threatening kings landing. Tywin might’ve told him that he can keep what he takes (desperate situation calls for desperate actions). Balon dosent declare himself king and instead declares for Joffrey and takes moat cailin and whatever castle he fancies.

If Balon had at least a few shreds of common sense alongside his grudge against the Starks, he would have done that. But the man is delusional to the end.

[sifth]

43 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Out of the 5 kings Balon was the worst king after Joffrey. I even believe that Cersei was a better strategist than Balon lol.

 

It says a lot, when Joffrey of all people actually fought in more battles. than Balon did in both of his rebellions. Don't get me wrong, Joffrey's contribution, was hardly anything, but even that was more than Balon did, which is just sad, when you think about it. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

34 minutes ago, sifth said:

It says a lot, when Joffrey of all people actually fought in more battles. than Balon did in both of his rebellions. Don't get me wrong, Joffrey's contribution, was hardly anything, but even that was more than Balon did, which is just sad, when you think about it. 

Pathetic would be a more appropriate word. And it also suits the Ironborn on general and their situation pretty well. Balon is in many ways the incarnation of the delusions, hypocrisy and worthlessness of the classical Ironborn mindset and of the Old Way, and of the misery it always end up bringing to the Iron Islands instead of bringing them glory or bettering the lives of its people.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

The Ironborn as a whole are more like a caricature of the vikings than really alike with them, they have little of the vikings' intelligence and pragmatism, save perhaps during the Hoares' New Way era.

Vikings actually traded a lot with western and eastern european kingdoms, and they also used it as a way to know the geography and strength of the kingdoms, and to develop networks of allies and spies here to keep them aware of changes here and weak points that they could raid. 

When a kingdom or empire was too strong for them they generally avoided it and kept quiet for a while or targeted far easier targets, and they were smart enough to not try conquest unless their foes were really that weak. It's no wonder that they eventually gave up on this lifestyle after a few centuries, and either abandon raids or chose to settle down in new territories such as Normandy or Englad and assimilate the local culture.

[James Arryn]

23 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The Ironborn as a whole are more like a caricature of the vikings than really alike with them, they have little of the vikings' intelligence and pragmatism, save perhaps during the Hoares' New Way era.

Vikings actually traded a lot with western and eastern european kingdoms, and they also used it as a way to know the geography and strength of the kingdoms, and to develop networks of allies and spies here to keep them aware of changes here and weak points that they could raid. 

When a kingdom or empire was too strong for them they generally avoided it and kept quiet for a while or targeted far easier targets, and they were smart enough to not try conquest unless their foes were really that weak. It's no wonder that they eventually gave up on this lifestyle after a few centuries, and either abandon raids or chose to settle down in new territories such as Normandy or Englad and assimilate the local culture.

I wouldn’t say caricature exactly, but I think we see it ~ similarly. Ie, there was an aspect of Viking life which the IB more or less accurately describe, but it was just one aspect. There were people in Viking culture who mostly lived to raid, but you couldn’t have an effective static culture based entirely around raiding, which is what the IB are apparently doing, with a sub-culture doing a bit of mining and the like. Just not enough there there. I can forgive overlooking the trading aspect because traders and raiders often were the same people on different days…I mean, the main plunder Vikings took were slaves, and they don’t sell themselves.
 

But to have an entire ethos built around doing nothing but raiding…it would require helot/Rome ratios of serfs to IB at home just to keep functioning, and that would ironically would keep them pretty close to home most of the time or else come back to the aftermaths of endemic revolts. It just can’t work the way it’s written. 
 

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I wouldn’t say caricature exactly, but I think we see it ~ similarly. Ie, there was an aspect of Viking life which the IB more or less accurately describe, but it was just one aspect. There were people in Viking culture who mostly lived to raid, but you couldn’t have an effective static culture based entirely around raiding, which is what the IB are apparently doing, with a sub-culture doing a bit of mining and the like. Just not enough there there. I can forgive overlooking the trading aspect because traders and raiders often were the same people on different days…I mean, the main plunder Vikings took were slaves, and they don’t sell themselves.
 

But to have an entire ethos built around doing nothing but raiding…it would require helot/Rome ratios of serfs to IB at home just to keep functioning, and that would ironically would keep them pretty close to home most of the time or else come back to the aftermaths of endemic revolts. It just can’t work the way it’s written. 
 

 

The whole point about the Old Way is that it has become long obsolete with the kingdoms having become unified, their armies stronger than the Ironborn and fortified with castles, and having become organised enough to deal with the raids properly.  

And how the Drowned Men and Ironborn elites are completely out of touch with reality, refusing to remember anything but the victories of the past instead of the more numerous and recent defeats and failures, and how it has completely failed to make their lives better than their ancestors.

It also shows their ignorance and hypocrisy, since the Hoare empire in the Riverlands is totally contrary to the Old Way and was deemed a blasphemy by the Drowned Men of that time, and how the Hoares and their men had more in common with the Riverlanders than Old Way and current Ironborn. 

[Nathan Stark]

Balon wanted to Make the Iron Islands Great Again. It went about as well as you'd expect. All they have really is the Old Way, which glorifies brainless machismo and pointless bullying of defenseless smallfolk. Intelligence isn't a Greyjoy family trait. Except for Euron, unfortunately.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

8 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Balon wanted to Make the Iron Islands Great Again. It went about as well as you'd expect. All they have really is the Old Way, which glorifies brainless machismo and pointless bullying of defenseless smallfolk. Intelligence isn't a Greyjoy family trait. Except for Euron, unfortunately.

It's for a few Greyjoys such as Vickon, Quellon or Euron, but I guess that too much drowning and exposure to Drowned Men have devastating intelligence regression effects on the great majority of them.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Poor Asha, the only Greyjoy who isn't insane, is always underrated.  I find her quite clever.

I also have a sweet spot for Theon after his character development and everything the poor man has been through. He thinks he is smarter than he actually is, but he's certainly wiser and more knowledgeable than most others.

[Damsel in Distress]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:49 AM, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

The man was…not smart. Like at all. Like Victarion may be smarter than he was. And to top off how stupid he was, he was a coward by Ironborn standards. 

Balon is not unlike the Umbers and Boltons.  He wants to bring back a way of life that should be left in distant history.  Piracy is not an ethical economy.  Umbers and Boltons would love the return of the Lord's Right to the First Night so they can openly do it.  Balon's intelligence is what you would expect from his surroundings.  But the system governing Westeros does not factor mental abilities; only the right to inherit the Seastone chair because of blood and order of birth. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Poor Asha, the only Greyjoy who isn't insane, is always underrated.  I find her quite clever.

I also have a sweet spot for Theon after his character development and everything the poor man has been through. He thinks he is smarter than he actually is, but he's certainly wiser and more knowledgeable than most others.

She's certainely far more clever and level-headed than her father and Greyjoy uncles, though she still has some of their delusions if her plans at the Kingsmoot and Deepwood Motte are any indication, there was no way that the northmen would ally with the Iron Islands and let them keep the lands they had stolen from them after stabbing them in the back.  

Though unlike her father she at least seems capable or learning and shedding her delusions while captive of Stannis and Alysane Mormont.

[the trees have eyes]

4 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Poor Asha, the only Greyjoy who isn't insane, is always underrated.  I find her quite clever.

I also have a sweet spot for Theon after his character development and everything the poor man has been through. He thinks he is smarter than he actually is, but he's certainly wiser and more knowledgeable than most others.

She's smart and written sympathetically but I question whether we really know her or how far she'll go for The Seastone Chair.  She's engaged in the Greyjoy version of the game of thrones right in front of us.  She does appear to recognise that reaving in Westeros is a dead end for the Ironborn - probably literally - but I'm not sure she is going to turn swords into ploughshares.

I'm conflicted on Theon.  He was written so unsympathetically in ACOK and his actions were so appalling; killing his own men, either accidentally - the man he shot in the stomach when he meant to shoot the winecup out of his hand - or deliberately to conceal the truth of what he and Reek did with the Miller's sons; murdering children to avoid looking foolish and having his delusional reign undermined; terrorising the castle folk at Winterfell and executing some to cow the others into obedience; raping Kyra; threatening to hang Beth Cassel to blackmail Rodrik into backing off.  I came pretty close to loathing this fictional character.

Yet Reek emerges as a very different character, one it's impossible not to pity.  A real tribute to GRRM's skill and vision for his characters.  I would love to see a meeting with Bran or any survivors of his brief reign at WF (should any have survived The Dreadfort and Ramasy's "pursuits").

[BlackLightning]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:27 PM, sifth said:

Isn't that just another word for "slave", lol

Yes and no...and yes

An indentured servant is more like a prisoner or a debtor in that both are temporarily "enslaved." The only difference is that a prisoner and a debtor allegedly did something wrong whereas an indentured servant is more or less blameless.

Think of it like Diet Slavery^TM. It's a far cry from both the chattel slavery of the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, and from the slavery of the Greco-Roman era...but it's basically slavery with a deadline. And I think that in some cases, indentured servants get some kind of payment at the end.