Can we just talk about Balon Greyjoy for a minute

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

One of Balon's most telling moments and traits is how he completely ignored Theon for the making of his plans, and ignored his objections and advices despite him being the only one who knows the North. 

Another great proof of how delusional, stupid and narrow-minded he is.

[James Arryn]

My most sympathetic angle on the idiot Balon Greyjoy;

Think of those old native tribal chiefs who kept being forced to reservations but then after a while would decide they cannot abide this new white man’s way of life, and rebel, and either rise up or head for Canada. Those guys all knew they stood no chance. But they would still rebel because this new way of life being forced on them was unendurable. 
 

Now, this is NOT me:

*forgetting that unlike the IB, the Native populations were often not a series of defeats, but a pattern of mixed wins and losses, eventual peace treaty along lines X and Y with both sides pretty beaten, almost inevitably those treaties would be broken by the white man when they recovered and the natives were broken up and their ability to resist seriously diminished, rinse, repeat. Seriously one of the more shameful records of behaviour we’ve ever seen between peoples, more betrayals and disgusting double-dealing than you can possibly imagine. 

*equating IB behaviour (mostly in others’ lands) with native behaviours in their own. Some tribes were more warlike than others, torture and brutal punishments were common among many tribes, etc. but there is otherwise no comparison in intent, malice, and the difference between raiding peaceful settlements oceans away and defending your own lands from repeated, often illegal incursions and invasions and a policy of genocide. Being asked not to raid, plunder, rape and pillage =/= being asked to give up ~ nomadic seasonal migratory patterns in sync with the wildlife they relied on and forced into staying in one small place, trying to dig out a farm in hardscrabble land and being relocated and/or pushed into rebellion anytime the white man decided the crap land they were limiting you to had more value than they knew. 
 

…but I am saying that, in a way, Balon was an iteration of those natives forced by others to change the way of life his people had known for centuries upon centuries and settle down to a way of life Other and one which his culture despised. And a reminder that the IB being subjected to foreign power is just as wrong as any other conquest/colonialism. That said, their way of life is, so far as we are shown, pretty ridiculous and almost impossible for other peoples to endure. But that doesn’t change the reality of what Balon is facing, and that sometimes it’s just rising up because it feels necessary, damn the odds. Doesn’t explain his need to take the worst option as per, but it gives me a tiny insight into the tinier mind of Balon freaking Greyjoy. 

Edited February 11 by James Arryn

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

10 hours ago, James Arryn said:

My most sympathetic angle on the idiot Balon Greyjoy;

Think of those old native tribal chiefs who kept being forced to reservations but then after a while would decide they cannot abide this new white man’s way of life, and rebel, and either rise up or head for Canada. Those guys all knew they stood no chance. But they would still rebel because this new way of life being forced on them was unendurable. 
 

Now, this is NOT me:

*forgetting that unlike the IB, the Native populations were often not a series of defeats, but a pattern of mixed wins and losses, eventual peace treaty along lines X and Y with both sides pretty beaten, almost inevitably those treaties would be broken by the white man when they recovered and the natives were broken up and their ability to resist seriously diminished, rinse, repeat. Seriously one of the more shameful records of behaviour we’ve ever seen between peoples, more betrayals and disgusting double-dealing than you can possibly imagine. 

*equating IB behaviour (mostly in others’ lands) with native behaviours in their own. Some tribes were more warlike than others, torture and brutal punishments were common among many tribes, etc. but there is otherwise no comparison in intent, malice, and the difference between raiding peaceful settlements oceans away and defending your own lands from repeated, often illegal incursions and invasions and a policy of genocide. Being asked not to raid, plunder, rape and pillage =/= being asked to give up ~ nomadic seasonal migratory patterns in sync with the wildlife they relied on and forced into staying in one small place, trying to dig out a farm in hardscrabble land and being relocated and/or pushed into rebellion anytime the white man decided the crap land they were limiting you to had more value than they knew. 
 

…but I am saying that, in a way, Balon was an iteration of those natives forced by others to change the way of life his people had known for centuries upon centuries and settle down to a way of life Other and one which his culture despised. And a reminder that the IB being subjected to foreign power is just as wrong as any other conquest/colonialism. That said, their way of life is, so far as we are shown, pretty ridiculous and almost impossible for other peoples to endure. But that doesn’t change the reality of what Balon is facing, and that sometimes it’s just rising up because it feels necessary, damn the odds. Doesn’t explain his need to take the worst option as per, but it gives me a tiny insight into the tinier mind of Balon freaking Greyjoy. 

Man, where did you find this ?

This is completely delusional, just as much as Balon himself.

Edited February 11 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[the trees have eyes]

19 hours ago, James Arryn said:

My most sympathetic angle on the idiot Balon Greyjoy;

Too sympathetic I think 

The IB are a raiding seapower who plunder their neighbours and have not been dispossessed of any lands, in fact they have been confirmed in their ancestral lands despite rebellion, i.e. being the one to break the peace treaty.

And in fact they conquered the Riverlands so are really an imperial power themselves who have been pushed back to their core territory.  Balon can't abide this any more than Euron so they seek to conquer their neighbours again and restore their geopolitical influence which shows them for what they are: a revisionist, expansionist power with imperial ambitions wanting to return to the glory days.

More Putin than First Nations in other words.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Balon and the Ironborn have far more in common with "the South will rise again" delusion than with the Amerindian tribes and nations, being nostalgic for a glorious time and state that never existed, using distorted historical views and revisionism, and basing themselves on racist and hypocrital views, while calling themselves oppresed for not being allowed to do something cruel and immoral anymore and that only a minority benefitted from anyway.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Also Balon's counter-reforms and stupid rebellions look a lot like some petty son's rebellion against his father, due to Quellon's pragmatic and open-minded reforms to better life on the Iron Islands and integrate them further to the mainland. 

[sifth]

I always wondered why even in peace times, Balon and presumably the rest of the Iron Born, were allowed to keep slaves. Tralls are basically slaves and everywhere else in Westeros, slavery is outlawed, yet the Iron Born are given a special exception, despite rebelling. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I always wondered why even in peace times, Balon and presumably the rest of the Iron Born, were allowed to keep slaves. Tralls are basically slaves and everywhere else in Westeros, slavery is outlawed, yet the Iron Born are given a special exception, despite rebelling. 

This is quite an important question indeed, it is strange that the Targaryens and other kings on the Iron Throne didn't consider the Ironborn thralls to be slaves and decided to banish thralldom on the isles.  

 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

One of Robert’s greatest mistakes was not wiping out the Greyjoys. I would have even taken it a step further and hunted down every drowned man I could find. It’s their culture that’s the issue. Much like the Dothraki it entirely relies on raiding, murder, and enslavement. But unlike the Dothraki we actually get POV Ironborn characters, and characters like Euron that bring entertainment with them. The Dothraki get none of that treatment. 
 

Dothraki are caricatures of the Mongols as the Ironborn are caricatures of Northern Europeans. Only we get perspective into multiple IB characters and they are allowed to have personalities. 
 

Ironborn are no better than the Dothraki 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 hours ago, sifth said:

I always wondered why even in peace times, Balon and presumably the rest of the Iron Born, were allowed to keep slaves.

I don't think they were allowed to keep thralls during Robert's reign. Isn't this why many of them are longing for the "old ways"?

Edited February 13 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

One of Robert’s greatest mistakes was not wiping out the Greyjoys. I would have even taken it a step further and hunted down every drowned man I could find. It’s their culture that’s the issue. Much like the Dothraki it entirely relies on raiding, murder, and enslavement. But unlike the Dothraki we actually get POV Ironborn characters, and characters like Euron that bring entertainment with them. The Dothraki get none of that treatment. 
 

Dothraki are caricatures of the Mongols as the Ironborn are caricatures of Northern Europeans. Only we get perspective into multiple IB characters and they are allowed to have personalities. 
 

Ironborn are no better than the Dothraki 

There are good Iron Born though. Just look at The Reader. If Robert had left him in charge after the rebellion, I doubt their would have been a second one.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think they were allowed to keep thralls during Robert's reign. Isn't this why many of them are longing for the "old ways"?

So they’re openly breaking the law and Robert is just letting it slide?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

So they’re openly breaking the law and Robert is just letting it slide?

It seems like they stopped having thralls after Aegon's conquest;

Quote

The Old Way came to an end when King Aegon I Targaryen burned King Harren Hoare to death at the burning of Harrenhal during Aegon's Conquest. Sporadic attempts have been made by the ironborn to restore the Old Way to the islands, such as by Lords Dagon and Balon Greyjoy, but all have failed. Some ironmen still yearn for its return, however.

 

Edited February 13 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[sifth]

26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It seems like they stopped having thralls after Aegon's conquest;

 

They have thralls in Theon’s first POV, before breaking the kings peace.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

There are good Iron Born though. Just look at The Reader. If Robert had left him in charge after the rebellion, I doubt their would have been a second one.

He seems to be the exception not the rule. Even Asha isn’t that great.

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

I always wondered why even in peace times, Balon and presumably the rest of the Iron Born, were allowed to keep slaves. Tralls are basically slaves and everywhere else in Westeros, slavery is outlawed, yet the Iron Born are given a special exception, despite rebelling.

They probably argued the Thralls were just serfs or indentured servants or something rather than slaves. Because the children of the Thralls (correct me if I'm wrong) have rights like the freeborn.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

40 minutes ago, sifth said:

They have thralls in Theon’s first POV, before breaking the kings peace.

Ah, right. Maybe those were some "off the record" thralls, then?

[the trees have eyes]

50 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Ah, right. Maybe those were some "off the record" thralls, then?

It's more the practice of gaining new thralls that would provoke Robert or any Lord in the 7K, there are no enforcement agents inspecting The Isles for open or hidden thralls.  It seems they head to Essos like Euron with his crew of mutes for that until Balon's rebellion Mk II.  Any complaints by Smallfolk to Ned, Tywin or Mace (or their forebears) about IB ships stealing women and children and they would have been shut down pretty hard.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

He seems to be the exception not the rule. Even Asha isn’t that great.

Baelor Blacktyde and Tristifer Botley as well. They all seem like decent people.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

They probably argued the Thralls were just serfs or indentured servants or something rather than slaves. Because the children of the Thralls (correct me if I'm wrong) have rights like the freeborn.

Isn't that just another word for "slave", lol