Too many Dornish Characters conform to (In-Universe) Negative Stereotypes

[Craving Peaches]

People are always quick to insult the Dornish by calling them snakes, poisoners, lustful, treacherous etc. When I first read this I assumed it was just a negative stereotypical view of them that people had. However so far a large portion of the Dornish characters we've seen actually live up to these insults. Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, are like walking Dornish stereotypes. It's a bit weird. It's like the bigoted insults are actually true...and it's not helped by some of the stunts they pulled historically, like mutilating prisoners, murdering people under a peace banner, etc. I mean the Sand Snakes actually want to kill a young boy to avenge their father's non-existent murder...We need more Dornish characters like Ellaria. I know some people say that there is a grain of truth in stereotypes, but some of these characters really are like walking caricatures based on all the negative traits people ascribe to the Dornish. If we take the stereotype of the North as 'evil tree worshipping savages', we see that's not true. But if we take the Dornish stereotypes of 'hot-blooded lustful people who kill others in cowardly ways', well...at least 5 characters match this...

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

People are always quick to insult the Dornish by calling them snakes, poisoners, lustful, treacherous etc. When I first read this I assumed it was just a negative stereotypical view of them that people had. However so far a large portion of the Dornish characters we've seen actually live up to these insults. Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, are like walking Dornish stereotypes. It's a bit weird. It's like the bigoted insults are actually true...and it's not helped by some of the stunts they pulled historically, like mutilating prisoners, murdering people under a peace banner, etc. I mean the Sand Snakes actually want to kill a young boy to avenge their father's non-existent murder...We need more Dornish characters like Ellaria. I know some people say that there is a grain of truth in stereotypes, but some of these characters really are like walking caricatures based on all the negative traits people ascribe to the Dornish. If we take the stereotype of the North as 'evil tree worshipping savages', we see that's not true. But if we take the Dornish stereotypes of 'hot-blooded lustful people who kill others in cowardly ways', well...at least 5 characters match this...

Arianne is a nymphomaniac, but she’s also quite kind-hearted, and lacking in cruelty.

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Arianne is a nymphomaniac, but she’s also quite kind-hearted, and lacking in cruelty.

True, but she's also rash, lustful and scheming. And she tried that stupid plan with Myrcella.

[EggBlue]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

People are always quick to insult the Dornish by calling them snakes, poisoners, lustful, treacherous etc. When I first read this I assumed it was just a negative stereotypical view of them that people had. However so far a large portion of the Dornish characters we've seen actually live up to these insults. Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, are like walking Dornish stereotypes. It's a bit weird. It's like the bigoted insults are actually true...and it's not helped by some of the stunts they pulled historically, like mutilating prisoners, murdering people under a peace banner, etc. I mean the Sand Snakes actually want to kill a young boy to avenge their father's non-existent murder...We need more Dornish characters like Ellaria. I know some people say that there is a grain of truth in stereotypes, but some of these characters really are like walking caricatures based on all the negative traits people ascribe to the Dornish. If we take the stereotype of the North as 'evil tree worshipping savages', we see that's not true. But if we take the Dornish stereotypes of 'hot-blooded lustful people who kill others in cowardly ways', well...at least 5 characters match this...

while I don't agree that Oberyn , Arianne , Doran or some of historical things fall into stereotypes , I largely agree with your post. GRRM so clearly has kinda dropped the ball with the Dornish and it specially stings since Dorne should have so much potential, being so culturally different from the rest of the kingdoms.

I may have said this a thousand times before but I still think the main problem with Dorne is that GRRM hasn't put enough time on it , or that he has tried to achieve too much in such a short page span. I guess he should have trimmed a character or two to flesh out the others making them more complex. like, for the life of me , I can't understand why we should meet three Sand Snakes , Doran , Arianne and Areo Hottah all in one single chapter! he should have have trimmed 2 Sand Snakes , making one representing the group with a bit more depth. like, as vile as it is, going against Tommen is not exactly worse than other things in the series, I mean the kid is technically the head of house Lannister and Martells have some bottled up grievances with house Lannister. but one just cannot get why Nym should tell her uncle of her assassination's plans in the same breath she lets us know who she is and that she was abed with some twins . and what is the deal with Obara?! come on George! cut the crap with Nym and Obara , keep Tyene in for the sake of better understanding of Arianne's plan that no one understands. cut Arys Oakheart and give his chapter to Arianne. also cut Areo Hottah ;it's not like he has used this character's potential as one of the few commoner characters. 

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

while I don't agree that Oberyn , Arianne , Doran or some of historical things fall into stereotypes , I largely agree with your post. GRRM so clearly has kinda dropped the ball with the Dornish and it specially stings since Dorne should have so much potential, being so culturally different from the rest of the kingdoms.

I may have said this a thousand times before but I still think the main problem with Dorne is that GRRM hasn't put enough time on it , or that he has tried to achieve too much in such a short page span. I guess he should have trimmed a character or two to flesh out the others making them more complex. like, for the life of me , I can't understand why we should meet three Sand Snakes , Doran , Arianne and Areo Hottah all in one single chapter! he should have have trimmed 2 Sand Snakes , making one representing the group with a bit more depth. like, as vile as it is, going against Tommen is not exactly worse than other things in the series, I mean the kid is technically the head of house Lannister and Martells have some bottled up grievances with house Lannister. but one just cannot get why Nym should tell her uncle of her assassination's plans in the same breath she lets us know who she is and that she was abed with some twins . and what is the deal with Obara?! come on George! cut the crap with Nym and Obara , keep Tyene in for the sake of better understanding of Arianne's plan that no one understands. cut Arys Oakheart and give his chapter to Arianne. also cut Areo Hottah ;it's not like he has used this character's potential as one of the few commoner characters. 

I find Dorne interesting, but it doesn’t quite work as the in-universe version of Al Andalus.  While the latter was a brilliant civilisation, it was not licentious.

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I find Dorne interesting, but it doesn’t quite work as the in-universe version of Al Andalus.  While the latter was a brilliant civilisation, it was not licentious.

I doubt it was meant to work that way. their culture is 180degrees different. ... I mean, maybe save for architecture , though that is also lacking knowing the closest things Dornish have to a city is their shadow city. all in all, I'd say Dorne pretty much falls short of expectations. I expected something more akin to Essos with more focus on trade in their economy rather than agriculture like the rest of Westeros. 

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

People are always quick to insult the Dornish by calling them snakes, poisoners, lustful, treacherous etc. When I first read this I assumed it was just a negative stereotypical view of them that people had. However so far a large portion of the Dornish characters we've seen actually live up to these insults. Oberyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes, are like walking Dornish stereotypes. It's a bit weird. It's like the bigoted insults are actually true...and it's not helped by some of the stunts they pulled historically, like mutilating prisoners, murdering people under a peace banner, etc. I mean the Sand Snakes actually want to kill a young boy to avenge their father's non-existent murder...We need more Dornish characters like Ellaria. I know some people say that there is a grain of truth in stereotypes, but some of these characters really are like walking caricatures based on all the negative traits people ascribe to the Dornish. If we take the stereotype of the North as 'evil tree worshipping savages', we see that's not true. But if we take the Dornish stereotypes of 'hot-blooded lustful people who kill others in cowardly ways', well...at least 5 characters match this...

I have no problem with a handful of spoiled aristocrats, all closely related, being licentious and bloodthirsty.  If this were made a universal trait, though, I would start rolling my eyes. Overall, I would prefer less licentiousness in the books.  But complaining about that is blowing against the wind.

Frog Martell is an earnest and dutiful young man.  

Edric Dayne and Arthur Dayne and Archie Yronwood don't fit the stereotype either.  I'm not sure Gerris does either.  But I guess you can argue they are a different Dornish "race". 

 

 

[Ran]

What @Gilbert Green says. You can't take this little knot of people -- basically people in the sphere of Oberyn Martell (his daughters, his niece and her hanger ons) -- and project them to be all of Dorne. 

[Curled Finger]

I like Hotah in particular even if he is Norvosi.  That said the Dornish are by and large an interesting bunch.  I would like a better gauge of the common folk's feelings in Dorne, but maybe they matter no more there than any place else in Westeros.  Tyene knows more than she's saying, Doran knows more than he's saying and Gerold Dayne is up to more than he's saying.   Arianne is just a POV.  I don't think she represents her father or Dorne accurately.  I consider her the least dangerous of the hotheads, Doran's best hope among many inadequate contenders.  Whatever he has planned all these years clearly didn't include Arianne.  This poor old man will do the best he can without his best weapon.  None of us believes this will end well.  

I don't really see a stereotype here.  I guess I see some of the Dornish characters living up to their PR.  As those above said, these are the only Dornish folk we really know anything of.  We barely met them and we are sure to learn more about them in the coming books which may surprise everyone.  

Edited February 11 by Curled Finger
dammit

[Alester Florent]

10 hours ago, EggBlue said:

going against Tommen is not exactly worse than other things in the series, I mean the kid is technically the head of house Lannister and Martells have some bottled up grievances with house Lannister.

Tommen isn't the head of House Lannister. Although he has both feet in the Lannister camp, he's legally a Baratheon (and nominal head of that house) rather than a Lannister.

The identity of the head of House Lannister is up for debate throughout the last two books in the series. Tywin's sons are both ineligible. Cersei thinks of herself as head, but power in the west is actually exercised by Damion and Daven, and arguably Kevan is the rightful heir (and himself becomes de facto head shortly before his murder).

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

What @Gilbert Green says. You can't take this little knot of people -- basically people in the sphere of Oberyn Martell (his daughters, his niece and her hanger ons) -- and project them to be all of Dorne. 

True, but look how different all of the Stark kids are, by comparison.

Edited February 11 by sifth

[Ran]

22 hours ago, sifth said:

True, but look how different all of the Stark kids are, by comparison.

Trystane and Quentyn look each to be pretty different from one another, and they from their sister. Doran is wildly different than Oberyn. 

Edited February 12 by Ran

[EggBlue]

28 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

Tommen isn't the head of House Lannister. Although he has both feet in the Lannister camp, he's legally a Baratheon (and nominal head of that house) rather than a Lannister.

The identity of the head of House Lannister is up for debate throughout the last two books in the series. Tywin's sons are both ineligible. Cersei thinks of herself as head, but power in the west is actually exercised by Damion and Daven, and arguably Kevan is the rightful heir (and himself becomes de facto head shortly before his murder).

with Jaimie a kingsgaurd and Tyrion out of picture, Cersei is the lady of Casterly Rock.Tommen is her heir, the Lannister camp's king, and the key to power. it's not hard to see why Lannisters' enemies would go after him and see him as more of a Lannister than Baratheon, never mind his true parentage. especially that both of his Baratheon uncles rose against his predecessor and the most fierce of Baratheon loyalists, Stormalnders, supported Stannis. 

[sifth]

45 minutes ago, Ran said:

Tristan and Quentyn look each to be pretty different from one another, and they from their sister. Doran is wildly different than Oberyn. 

I’ll let you know about Tristan when he actually shows up in the series. Everything we know about him now is secondhand. 

[Alester Florent]

50 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

with Jaimie a kingsgaurd and Tyrion out of picture, Cersei is the lady of Casterly Rock.Tommen is her heir, the Lannister camp's king, and the key to power. it's not hard to see why Lannisters' enemies would go after him and see him as more of a Lannister than Baratheon, never mind his true parentage. especially that both of his Baratheon uncles rose against his predecessor and the most fierce of Baratheon loyalists, Stormalnders, supported Stannis. 

The Lannisters have previously had some pretty strongly-expressed feelings on the subject of female inheritance.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

I’ll let you know about Tristan when he actually shows up in the series. Everything we know about him now is secondhand. 

I'm beginning to understand why GRRM uses DOS. The autocorrect on modern systems is absolutely brutal.

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, sifth said:

I’ll let you know about Tristan when he actually shows up in the series. Everything we know about him now is secondhand. 

We know he's able to talk to girls. That makes him very different from Quentyn.

Edited February 11 by Ran

[EggBlue]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

We know he's able to talk to girls. That makes him very different from Quentyn.

aaaand... that's why I always say poor Doran could never predict Quentyn cannot convince Dany to marry him and come to Dorne! between himself, Oberyn, and Tristan(still what? 12?)... how could he?!

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

26 minutes ago, Ran said:

We know he's able to talk to girls. That makes him very different from Quentyn.

Didn't Tristan and Isolde drink a love potion, though? 

[Gilbert Green]

Dorne, or at least its sandy parts, seem inspired by Lyonesse.  It is where Lyonesse would be on a mirror-reversed Britain (which seems to be the model for Westeros).  It even has its own Tristan.  Lyonesse, if it had really existed, would have been a lowland region bordering Wales. 

Which may foreshadow its sinking beneath the waves.  It's sandy parts, anyhow.  And the sandier it is, the easier it is to imagine it getting washed away in a catastrophe.

Foreshadowed by similar catastrophes.  Like the broken arm that destroyed the land-bridge to Essos.  And maybe also foreshadowed by Mel's vision of "the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths".

Rather like Tolkien's Numenor.  Except that it is connected to a mainland.  Maybe there is a hint that much of Dorne has become corrupt, just as much of Numenor became corrupt.  Wrath of God, and all that.  Some of its names. like "Hellholt" and Hellgate, sound quite sinister.

A possible artistic reason why many of the Dornish we know are portrayed negatively.

Just brainstorming here.

Edited February 12 by Gilbert Green